[[Andy) Dillon Tells [[Joann) Watson Some of the Things to Expect With an EM

[313WX]

http://michigancitizen.com/watson-ba...o-discuss-efm/

*Say Goodbye to the Public Lighting Department.
*Say Goodbye to DDOT.

And also, he has affirmed that the appeal is merely a legal formality and that Detroit's still getting an EM.

[Detroitnerd]

Note well that DDOT and PLD were two institutions originally set up by Detroit's socialist mayor Hazen Pingree to compete with private business and lower rates for transit and electricity.

[mwilbert]

Note well that DDOT and PLD were two institutions originally set up by Detroit's socialist mayor Hazen Pingree to compete with private business and lower rates for transit and electricity.

The PLD obviously has utterly failed in that mission. DDOT still has a useful purpose, but at this point needs to be replaced by a regional transportation entity.

[Zacha341]

I read somewhere that the public lighting system in the downtown/ WSU area is so old and antiquated that only a few rag-tag crew of older staff can keep it running so far. Will those folks willingly hand over those instructions or cliff notes to the new incoming engineers and what not. One of the systems is due a major overhaul... I wonder if that is forthcoming? Or we may have some serious lights OUT!

Previous news related to Detroit lighting....

Power failures reveal aging Detroit infrastructure
http://thesouthend.wayne.edu/article...ure#comment990

Detroit lighting grid fails, leaves WSU, DPS in dark temporarily
http://thesouthend.wayne.edu/article...rk_temporarily

Legislation could help fix streetlights in Detroit
http://www.freep.com/article/2012052...hts-in-Detroit

[Cliffy]

Anyone know when the hearing for the appeal is scheduled

[Jimaz]

I read somewhere that the public lighting system in the downtown/ WSU area is so old and antiquated that only a few rag-tag crew of older staff can keep it running so far. Will those folks willingly hand over those instructions or cliff notes to the new incoming engineers and what not....

How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb? LOL!

[Wheels]

He should have told her to shut up and go sit in the corner!

[Detroitnerd]

The PLD obviously has utterly failed in that mission. DDOT still has a useful purpose, but at this point needs to be replaced by a regional transportation entity.

No, it didn't fail. In fact, it was resoundingly successful. It was only in the later half of the 20th century, with disinvestment from the city, that saw its fortunes flag. And DTE is still determined to rid itself of this "competition."

Here is the record of the PLD's early successes from "Municipal Monopolies"

If space permitted, it would be very interesting to describe the efforts of private electric plants, not only in Detroit but elsewhere, to prevent that city from securing even a street-lighting plant in 1894. Only the persistence of the then mayor of Detroit, Hon. H. S. Pingree, secured the present plant, by which, as we have seen, the average price of street-lighting has been reduced one-sixth, and by which an even greater reduction could occur in private lighting, if the plant were allowed to enter that field.

The advantages of public ownership in a well-managed plant, even when there is no apparent reduction in price after all allowance is made for depreciation, interest, etc., were admirably expressed by Mr. Dow in the Western Mectrician [[Feb. 22, 1896), as follows:

"To sum it up : If a municipal plant is operated and managed in good running order, at such a figure as, added to interest, sinking-fund, and lost taxes, will equal the contract cost of lighting, there is a gain to the taxpayers in municipal lighting, directly by reason of ownership of a marketable asset, free from encumbrance at the winding up of the sinking-fund ; and indirectly by the retention of the depreciation fund in the active business of the taxpayers."

... In other words, Detroit may, from a bookkeeping point of view, compute the cost of her lights as about $85 a year, in comparison with about $130 under private ownership, or $162.20 promised on a ten-year contract ; while, looking forward to a time 20 or 30 years hence, when the plant will be entirely paid for from a 6 per cent yearly depreciation fund, so that interest and depreciation will no longer have to be reckoned. The city may also consider the cost not as $85 a year, but as say $65 a year, or whatever the running-expenses and interest may be, and $20 more, which may be kept in the pockets of the taxpayers until needed for-expensive renewals 10 or 20 years hence."

We should be lucky to have such "failures" to help save the public money. Instead, the remedy is always more "privatization" and "outsourcing."

http://www.mackinac.org/4149

[rb336]

DPL is an antiquated, dilapidated system the city can not afford to modernize. DDOT's days have been numbered ever since a new regional transit authority was authorized.

I still don't see what an EMF can do to change Detroit's biggest issue - dealing with a city designed for a million more people than it has with a revenue stream of a poor city of its current size

[Zacha341]

Hah! A battery [[pardon the pun) of them to fix an antiquated system held together with bailing wire and duct tape like this system.

How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb? LOL!

[stasu1213]

The PLD obviously has utterly failed in that mission. DDOT still has a useful purpose, but at this point needs to be replaced by a regional transportation entity.

I agree that DDOT had not been managed well in the past 40 years. I had caught the bus yesterday and left my car at home. The services on the selected routes such as Gratiot, Dexter, and Grand River were diporable. A regional bus systems would be more effective and safer with security on board. Michiganders will have to be more transit focused on order to have a good system

[Hermod]

Note well that DDOT and PLD were two institutions originally set up by Detroit's socialist mayor Hazen Pingree to compete with private business and lower rates for transit and electricity.

Pingree did not set up DDOT. Pingree arranged for the set up of several trolley lines to run cross town routes because the existing lines were all radial [[and Pingree hated the owners). Over time, the stock in the crosstown trolley lines were bought up by the trolley companies and the whole system ended up as a part of the Detroit United Railway [[DUR). It was mayor Couzzens who used economic blackmail and threats of non-renwal of franchises to force the DUR to sell [[at scrap value) the city system to a new DSR that Couzzens set up. After refusing requests for fare increases by the DUR, Couzzens immediately allowed the DSR to increase fares. The DSR also did everything they could to make DUR interurban lines unprofitable and thus we lost SE Michigan's extensive passenger interurban network.

Couzzens created DSR/DDOT, not Pingree.

[Detroitnerd]

Pingree did not set up DDOT.

You're right. But he was a staunch advocate of public ownership of monopoly transit, in fact, becoming a national spokesman for municipal ownership and close regulation of utilities and street railways. Oh, and, yes, Pingree tried to create a competing, municipally owned street railway company, and clearly helped plant the seeds for the creation of the DSR some 25 years later. He was prevented by that provincial, outdated document known as the Michigan constitution.

So, yes, you're right -- my mistake -- Pingree did not set up DDOT.

He only did everything BUT set up DDOT.

[p69rrh51]

You're right. But he was a staunch advocate of public ownership of monopoly transit, in fact, becoming a national spokesman for municipal ownership and close regulation of utilities and street railways. Oh, and, yes, Pingree tried to create a competing, municipally owned street railway company, and clearly helped plant the seeds for the creation of the DSR some 25 years later. He was prevented by that provincial, outdated document known as the Michigan constitution.

So, yes, you're right -- my mistake -- Pingree did not set up DDOT.

He only did everything BUT set up DDOT.

Detroitnerd Pingree was a progressive/republican not the socialist you want him to be. If he did not like you he could be quite vindictive! Hence his setting up competing entities. They were not put in place for some altruistic reason just the he did not like the men running the competing companies. Its interesting you talk about the 2 halves of the 20th century, the first/well run half in your thread was run mostly by republican mayors while the second/poorly half managed was run by mostly democrats. Interesting that things ran well with a group that is not usually associated with believing in govt. as the answer to all social ills.

[Wesley Mouch]

No, it didn't fail. In fact, it was resoundingly successful. It was only in the later half of the 20th century, with disinvestment from the city, that saw its fortunes flag. And DTE is still determined to rid itself of this "competition."

Competition! Ha. Surely you jest. DTE wants PLD.

Well, now that I think about it, I can see your point. PLD is an entirely redundant distribution network. So Edison is probably thinking that they can be paid 50% of what PLD costs, and still make a ton of money. And at the same time, they can help out their city. They have a strong interest in Detroit's success.

A friend of mine works for Edison, and pointed out that most if not nearly all PLD power comes from Edison already. Does anyone know how true this is today?

[cramerro]

I agree that DDOT had not been managed well in the past 40 years. I had caught the bus yesterday and left my car at home. The services on the selected routes such as Gratiot, Dexter, and Grand River were diporable. A regional bus systems would be more effective and safer with security on board. Michiganders will have to be more transit focused on order to have a good system

I agree that DDOT is not the best managed historically, and that the geographic system limits of DDOT don't make sense for regional trips. However, statements such as yours imagine that any system that isn't tainted with the "DDOT" namesake would magically have enough funding to have security staff of every bus and also be 'more effective'... which I would liken to more frequent service and more geographic coverage of tranist service. Your last sentence is a good down-to-earth here... Michiganders will have to open thier pocketbooks for any service, whether DDOT or not, to be more effective and safer.

[Honky Tonk]

I agree that DDOT had not been managed well in the past 40 years. I had caught the bus yesterday and left my car at home. The services on the selected routes such as Gratiot, Dexter, and Grand River were diporable. A regional bus systems would be more effective and safer with security on board. Michiganders will have to be more transit focused on order to have a good system

Hopefully.......

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd Pingree was a progressive/republican not the socialist you want him to be. If he did not like you he could be quite vindictive! Hence his setting up competing entities. They were not put in place for some altruistic reason just the he did not like the men running the competing companies. Its interesting you talk about the 2 halves of the 20th century, the first/well run half in your thread was run mostly by republican mayors while the second/poorly half managed was run by mostly democrats. Interesting that things ran well with a group that is not usually associated with believing in govt. as the answer to all social ills.

This is a simplistic, doll's house view of history. If Pingree was a Republican, it was in name only. As for Detroit, a soap dish could have balanced the books for the first half of the century, during its explosive growth. As for the second half, a mixture of Moses, Jesus and Einstein couldn't have halted the decline.

[Detroitnerd]

Competition! Ha. Surely you jest. DTE wants PLD.

Well, now that I think about it, I can see your point. PLD is an entirely redundant distribution network. So Edison is probably thinking that they can be paid 50% of what PLD costs, and still make a ton of money. And at the same time, they can help out their city. They have a strong interest in Detroit's success.

A friend of mine works for Edison, and pointed out that most if not nearly all PLD power comes from Edison already. Does anyone know how true this is today?

Well, Bing was on the board of DTE, and brokered the deals whereby that came to pass. Mistersky, a wonder of the world when PLD opened it in the 1920s, was to be shut down, and DTE to get a $253 million rate increase.

How's that for a "strong interest in Detroit's success"? Sounds more like gutting the competition and getting all the market will bear to me.

[mwilbert]

No, it didn't fail. In fact, it was resoundingly successful. It was only in the later half of the 20th century, with disinvestment from the city, that saw its fortunes flag. And DTE is still determined to rid itself of this "competition."

Just because it didn't fail immediately doesn't mean it hasn't failed. It is certainly a failure now, and provides no competition for DTE. I'm actually a big fan of public power, but the PLD is no longer doing anything useful.

[Detroitnerd]

Just because it didn't fail immediately doesn't mean it hasn't failed. It is certainly a failure now, and provides no competition for DTE. I'm actually a big fan of public power, but the PLD is no longer doing anything useful.

I'm sure that DTE and all the other people being paid by DTE, including former board-member Bing, will all work to make your predictions come true.

[mwilbert]

I didn't make a prediction. That is just a description of the current state.

[p69rrh51]

This is a simplistic, doll's house view of history. If Pingree was a Republican, it was in name only. As for Detroit, a soap dish could have balanced the books for the first half of the century, during its explosive growth. As for the second half, a mixture of Moses, Jesus and Einstein couldn't have halted the decline.

And a very simplistic non answer. There were plenty of ways to halt the decline.

[Detroitnerd]

I didn't make a prediction. That is just a description of the current state.

Correction: DTE and all the other people being paid by DTE, including former board-member Bing, will all work to make your statement true. They don't want competition.

That's right: A super-profitable private company gets the fix in to dispose of its [[much weaker) competition. If it provides no competition for DTE, why is DTE working so hard to get rid of it?

[rb336]

a mixture of Moses, Jesus and Einstein couldn't have halted the decline.

none of them are financial geniuses, and two of them are mythological