Gilbert seeks ideas for developing Hudson's site in Detroit

[canuck]

Commendable, but with all the empty floor space STILL available in downtown Detroit, is this really necessary?

Good question. Not an easy one to answer. I am for rehab and enhance wherever possible. If designers can come up with a way to connect the older buildings around the new core building and create a small city space where even a stuctural link to an el parking can become a dramatic gesture, or an arched overpass leading to an arcade window on an older building.

[downtownguy]

Why do they need more parking when there's already 750 spots underneath?

I wondered the same thing and I don't know the answer. I was addressing the fact that Gilbert had originally floated the idea of parking above ground on this block, so there might be some studies showing it's necessary. As it is now, I believe the underground structure is close to capacity, and I don't know if the parking structure Gilbert is building at Broadway and Grand River would change the equation. Regardless, whatever gets built will add to the demand.

[wolverine]

plus its hideous...

I agree it looks like something from the 80's. Postmodernism had its last few buildings go up in the past decade in major American cities. And even those were seen as out of date by the mainstream architecture community. Though people will simply buy or rent condos for the view regardless of outside appearance.

I should point out that recent proposals in Detroit have not been good, so I can understand why some people tend to be untrusting of something more modern.

I actually don't mind Compuware. It doesn't try to force dopey cornices or weird geometric reveals. Just simple lines and decent materials. It does touch briefly with postmodernism with some of the arches above the storefronts, but they are simple and elegant.

Not saying I'd totally object to Gistok's idea to rebuilding something in New York style vertical facades. But architects have tried and failed miserably to replicate our past. They use cheap precast with details and shapes that looks like they were hammered out by an ogre. You could actually still get "the real thing" that you see on many vintage Detroit buildings, but you would need to use those components over and over again across the design to make it cheap, not 20 different facades.

As for parking, dare I say this building should include more. I think each office or residential building should contain its parking internally. It shouldn't have to dedicate space elsewhere to meet its needs. My hope is that new garage going up will be torn down in a decade for a soaring residential tower.

And I'm not entirely sure on the load capacity of those columns over Hudsons. I mean I've heard the 15-18 story range before, but that all kind of depends. The 30'x30' grid works alright for both office and residential, but floor to floors will be much higher for office, with a delta of about 3'. So that's probably where that range comes from.

As for the design, I totally agree with comments it should hold the street entirely much like Hudsons with some sheer verticality. The plaza originally proposed in the multi-building scheme was awful. Let Campus Martius be your celebrated downtown space. You don't need any more secondary spaces with Capitol Park limping by and GCP as kind of this dead zone.

I would suggest. 2-3 levels of retail with small sub dividable spaces on the lower levels and fine dining / big box on the upper floors. Target tends to be open to really awful and complicated floorplans in their City Stores, but the Hudsons site should be a cakewalk with a mezzanine condition because the floorplates would be ridiculously huge. They'd probably need not build the second floor. And with standard build, you take your carts down massive elevators to the garage below. And btw, the decked parking in Targets are wonderful. Short walk to the car, and no dealing with weather. Plus the parking is free if you visit the store, costly if you don't.

Office and residential would be stacked in separate "towers" over the 3 story retail base. In a midrise application it's absolutely unpractical to stack office and residential together unless those offices require class B+ space like small agencies or doctors offices. They got to be in separate structures. Plus it makes your core arrangements easier. It's more rational to stack residential and office atop each other when it's a tall high rise.

[royce]

How would you build more parking on the site? Aren't the steel foundations meant to carry the load of floors to a building and not additional floors for parking? The Toronto building closely resembles what I would like to see on the Hudson's site. A CityTarget on the ground floor with residential above would be my ideal development for the site.

[Gistok]

I wonder if the 15-18 story limit is 15 commercial floors OR 18 residential floors... since the height limits between the 2 would be pretty close.

One of the reasons I would like a similar treatment to that across Woodward from the Hudsons site, and the 3 blocks [[both sides) north of this block... is that it would give the entire Lower Woodward 4 block stretch a more cohesive look.

The article really didn't mention office space [[but it didn't deny it would be part of it either), so retail/residential is what this sounds like... which could be 1 building. If they want to build above ground parking as well, I would hope it would be all on the back part of the structure away from Woodward.

Here's a Photoshop redo of the NYC idea... with a 1/2 block long facade.... again... just an idea [[floors would have to match up)... may not be feasible...

[rbdetsport]

In my opinion, the beauty of those types of cohesive blocks is how the floors do not line up. Lining up the floors would seem to make it too obvious that it is one building made to look like 7. Unless you aren't really trying to fake out onlookers..

[mikeg19]

Although the pricing that is being mentioned is $75 million, and the site size/planned structure most likely calls for more money than that being spent, I believe one of the articles in the News said he only needs to spend $75 million on the site before a certain date for the site to quality for tax credits/renaissance zone designation. If that's correct, he might just need to hit that $75 million milestone before a certain date [[2016 I believe it said) and could possible spend quite a bit more on the project in total.

If this is Gilbert's foray into residential on the Hudson's site, I'm curious to see what he is going to do for a Quicken Loans headquarters downtown somewhere. Is that still an option he is exploring at this point, or does he figure to have enough space for Quicken with all of his properties? You'd think he would like to have his company housed in one headquarter building eventually, and lease out all the space that Quicken employees currently utilize in his buildings.

[wolverine]

How would you build more parking on the site? Aren't the steel foundations meant to carry the load of floors to a building and not additional floors for parking? The Toronto building closely resembles what I would like to see on the Hudson's site. A CityTarget on the ground floor with residential above would be my ideal development for the site.

As designed with the columns setup parking levels would impose less loading than residential or commercial floors. I'd prefer no additional parking levels. But if there had to be they could be accomodated.

[Hypestyles]

Would an "urban-sized" Target store fit on the site?

[Bham1982]

Would an "urban-sized" Target store fit on the site?

Definitely. Assuming you're referring to the CityTarget brand, they're like a third the size of a normal Target. They're more like a big Rite Aid than a small department store.

All this talk though is missing the point, IMO. Everything we're discussing is dependent on one central issue. How much are we as taxpayers willing to pay. There's no market demand for any use at this site, so the question is what [[and to what extent) are we willing to subsidize?

Metro Detroit has a glut of retail, hotel, office and residential uses. There's no demand, and the claimed "end of suburbia" is nonsense. The suburban bulldozers are all raring up again, and sprawl continues its outward march [[check out the " Building Boom in Macomb Township" article in this week's Detroit News-) http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO03/302260360

[401don]

Definitely. Assuming you're referring to the CityTarget brand, they're like a third the size of a normal Target. They're more like a big Rite Aid than a small department store.

All this talk though is missing the point, IMO. Everything we're discussing is dependent on one central issue. How much are we as taxpayers willing to pay. There's no market demand for any use at this site, so the question is what [[and to what extent) are we willing to subsidize?

Metro Detroit has a glut of retail, hotel, office and residential uses. There's no demand, and the claimed "end of suburbia" is nonsense. The suburban bulldozers are all raring up again, and sprawl continues its outward march [[check out the " Building Boom in Macomb Township" article in this week's Detroit News-) http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO03/302260360

In a metro area over 4.5 million, a greater downtown Detroit population of 35,000, along with a growing office population, can certainly support a couple of thousand residential units for young people who want to move downtown as well as some new retail. That doesn't mean the end of suburbia.

[Gistok]

In my opinion, the beauty of those types of cohesive blocks is how the floors do not line up. Lining up the floors would seem to make it too obvious that it is one building made to look like 7. Unless you aren't really trying to fake out onlookers..

I can't argue with that... it likely would give it away.

[detmsp]

Definitely. Assuming you're referring to the CityTarget brand, they're like a third the size of a normal Target. They're more like a big Rite Aid than a small department store.

No. Not even close. A Rite Aid is about 12,000 sq feet. City Target is in the 80,000-90,000 range.

[wolverine]

Would an "urban-sized" Target store fit on the site?

The one in the Carsons department store building in Chicago is 55,000 square feet. The Hudsons gross buildable site is nearly twice that. So technically the whole store could be on one floor. Plus the column grid of the Detroit site, is perfect 30x30 which works nicely for retail. They are also open to multiple store entrances and they usually have 1-2 security guards standing by entrances as the subway station is literally right at their entrance.

On a side note, I've heard people on this board ask about security, but in cities, every store has loss prevention. The security guards actually double as greeters. They tend to be more well dressed than the store staff, welcome you to the store with a smile, but will take a thief down in an instant!

Anyway, 90,000-95,000 sqft floorplates on this site is huge. I mean total office build potential is close to 1.5 million square feet....half the size of Willis tower. There's really not that many office buildings in the US going up of that size even as major cities enter the next office tower boom. On a more typical downtown urban lot, that could produce a skyscraper of up to 75 stories of office alone. So don't let the midrise floor count fool you, it's big and will likely be broken up into several separate buildings that are of rational size to Detroit's downtown market.

As for residential, it absolutely must be separate towers, not some giant monolith. The floorplates are way too deep and a big "O" would be a colossal waste of money. It's really not that practical from a construction cost standpoint or marketability of apartments facing this pit.

[wolverine]

I can't argue with that... it likely would give it away.

Ugh, reminds me of this building. I can clearly see the floors don't line up. Though I give the city credit for forcing the mall to rebuild the art deco gem they tore down. But still not fooling me. I see those floors cutting through windows! Still, it proves you can recreate a facade pretty convincingly, even if it's just a stage set slapped over a modern structure.

[Bham1982]

No. Not even close. A Rite Aid is about 12,000 sq feet. City Target is in the 80,000-90,000 range.

Re-read my post. I said they're like a big drug store, moreso than a small department store.

Big drug stores in urban areas can be 30,000-40,000 ft., or bigger. Seen the Manhattan Duane Reades lately? City Targets and the Urban WalMarts start around 50,000 ft. Even the smaller mall department stores are often 300,000-400,000 ft., and traditional downtown anchor department stores can have millions of square ft. of space.

Yes, a CityTarget will be much bigger than your local corner Rite Aid, but it's a long way from a traditional department store, and is even nothing like normal Targets, which are usually twice the size.

[Warrenite84]

Here are some examples I'd like to see. [[Some are too tall but maybe a scaled-back to 15-18 stories.) Maybe 3 discinct towers on a 3-5 story staggered base.

[wolverine]

The 1225 Old Town project got built in Chicago for about that number. It’s a mixed use 16 story, 250 unit project that actually preserved and incorporated a couple of low-rise commercial facades including the Grossinger Cadillac storefront [[Chicago’s Dalgleish Cadillac). Gistok, you would approve. This is a pretty good example of what the Hudson site could support.

I'm lukewarm to the project above and very familiar with it. I actually was planning to move into this building but it wasn't going to get done in time with the end of my lease so I renewed and stayed where I am. The facade is kind of bland and flat. The massing is great IMO, but it's fine as a neighborhood building but not a downtown building. Something high profile in downtown Detroit shouldn't be the off-the-shelf developer product
But the size and scale as you point out would be spot on.

oooof....kind of flat in comparison to Merchants row.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/6736/12252.jpg

BTW, haven't see the old dealership facade go back up. Rumors swirling it may just all come down.

Verdict is still out as the first floor has yet to be built. It's mostly open columns.

[wolverine]

Re-read my post. I said they're like a big drug store, moreso than a small department store.

Big drug stores in urban areas can be 30,000-40,000 ft., or bigger. Seen the Manhattan Duane Reades lately? City Targets and the Urban WalMarts start around 50,000 ft. Even the smaller mall department stores are often 300,000-400,000 ft., and traditional downtown anchor department stores can have millions of square ft. of space.

Yes, a CityTarget will be much bigger than your local corner Rite Aid, but it's a long way from a traditional department store, and is even nothing like normal Targets, which are usually twice the size.

So I can buy bed sets, desks, floor lamps, meats, full produce line and clothing at rite aid? I mean Bham1982, we aren't talking just a couple aisles here. We're talking tens of thousands of extra square feet to support that.

Sure DR and Walgreens are building massive flagships that have food, but not as much as a grocery store. City Targets have the same quantity of fresh and boxed food products as the average city market, which is 15,000 square feet alone sans POS areas and liquor. Walgreens holds title to the two largest drugstores in Chicago. The flagship state street location is 27,000 square feet and the Wicker Park bank renovation was 30,000 square feet operating on 2 and 3 floors respectively. Duane Reade flagship locations in NYC top out at 25,000. You can find that in article on their "newest and biggest locations" for future drugstores, beauty centers, and in-house clinics. I don't know why you listed that range, they aren't correct. Not even the largest stores fall in that range. So that said, no...city targets are not oversized drugstores. This is a bad observation.

[GUSHI]

How about putting a target on 1 floor and another retailer on the second,

[gumby]

I think the last 2 look good. The first 2 are God awful though.

Admittedly it's a fine line between respecting the architectural context of a site and lazy mimicry of historic styles. Unchecked historicism too often can produce this:





Ottawa County Courthouse, Grand Haven, MI



Lighthouse Point Condominium, St. Joseph, MI



251 N. Rose, Kalamazoo, MI




Hobbs Taylor Lofts, Lawrence, KS

[DetroitPlanner]

Even the smaller mall department stores are often 300,000-400,000 ft., and traditional downtown anchor department stores can have millions of square ft. of space.

Yes, a CityTarget will be much bigger than your local corner Rite Aid, but it's a long way from a traditional department store, and is even nothing like normal Targets, which are usually twice the size.

Traditional Downtown Dept Stores are dead. No one in their right mind will build a new one. Even the new ones along Michigan Ave in Chicago are nowhere nears the size you mention.

[wolverine]

Traditional Downtown Dept Stores are dead. No one in their right mind will build a new one. Even the new ones along Michigan Ave in Chicago are nowhere nears the size you mention.

The most recently constructed traditional department store in the Mag Mile area was Barney's at 90,000 sf, built in 2008. You're right. This is much larger than the sizes mentioned.

[Bham1982]

So that said, no...city targets are not oversized drugstores. This is a bad observation.

You are saying that CityTargets should be compared to department stores, even though they're 5% the size of urban department stores, but shouldn't be compared to drug stores, even though they're only twice the size of urban drug stores.

Sounds to me that they're alot closer to drug stores than department stores, which was my point.

And the real gap is even closer. Duane Reade has 30,000-40,000 square foot stores in development. These new Duane Reades have clothing, deli counters, and even some simple appliances. If you go to Europe, you see even bigger drug stores, that are almost exactly like CityTarget. The one all over Paris is called Monoprix.

For those that speak French, this is basically a CityTarget. http://www.monoprix.fr/

[Bham1982]

Traditional Downtown Dept Stores are dead. No one in their right mind will build a new one. Even the new ones along Michigan Ave in Chicago are nowhere nears the size you mention.

In most of the U.S., excepting NYC, they aren't building many urban department stores. And, you're right, the ones they're building tend to be small.

The only exception I can think of is a new Nordstrom flagship in Manhattan, and a pretty big Macys in the Bronx.

Other than that, I can't think of any big urban style full-service department stores, though there are some smaller, more limited service, or more quasi-auto-oriented ones that have gone up.