Any Witnesses to the Wildings, 02/09/2013?

[Gianni]

I think it's important to keep this in perspective also. I'm not making excuses I hope these kids get what they deserve and then some. But I don't think they were all zombie killers like a lot of the people freaking out over this are saying. I was at Winter Blast with my family [[including 2 teenage daughters) Satuday night between about 7 and 9. I noticed right away there were a lot of young teenagers hanging out doing the boy meets girl thing. Now with cell phones and texting I guess that someone says "lets go to Winter Blast" or "let's go to the Riverwalk" and next thing you know you have a few hundred kids in the same place. I've been around long enough to know trouble brewing when I see it so we left. It's not a new story, you get a bunch of teenagers in one spot, most are innocent but a few looking for trouble. Somebody looks at a girl the wrong way and fights break out. That's what happenned at the Riverwalk this summer, after Belle Isle became an unwelcome place for these teenagers. They put a curfew in place at the Riverwalk, plus some undercover cops, and pretty much squashed it.

[cla1945]

If we took a fraction of the money we spent on prisons and police and prosecutors and simply gave it to people in the form of services and subsidies, we'd do a lot more to fight crime that way.

What "services and subsidies" are you referring to?

[CassTechGrad]

If we took a fraction of the money we spent on prisons and police and prosecutors and simply gave it to people in the form of services and subsidies, we'd do a lot more to fight crime that way.

Maybe, if people don’t have money for food, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called food stamps-bridge cards.

Well then, maybe if people have lost their jobs, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called unemployment compensation.

Well then, maybe if people were not working, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called the Welfare Program.

Well then, maybe if people don’t have enough money for rent, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do,it’s called HUD Housing Choice Voucher Program [[Section 8).

Well then, maybe if people don’t have enough money to pay their energy bills, then the state should give them some money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called the State Emergency Relief Program [[SER).

Well then, maybe if people don’t have enough money to pay for health care, then the State should give them money. Oh wait, they already do, it’s called the Medicaid Low Income Family [[LIF) Program

Well then, maybe if people can’t work because the’re disabled, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait,they already do, it’s called Social Security Disability Insurance.

Well then, maybe ……………………………………

[noggin]

If we took a fraction of the money we spent on prisons and police and prosecutors and simply gave it to people in the form of services and subsidies, we'd do a lot more to fight crime that way.

Maybe, if people don’t have money for food, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called food stamps-bridge cards.

Well then, maybe if people have lost their jobs, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called unemployment compensation.

Well then, maybe if people were not working, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called the Welfare Program.

Well then, maybe if people don’t have enough money for rent, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait, they already do,it’s called HUD Housing Choice Voucher Program [[Section 8).

Well then, maybe if people don’t have enough money to pay their energy bills, then the state should give them some money! Oh wait, they already do, it’s called the State Emergency Relief Program [[SER).

Well then, maybe if people don’t have enough money to pay for health care, then the State should give them money. Oh wait, they already do, it’s called the Medicaid Low Income Family [[LIF) Program

Well then, maybe if people can’t work because the’re disabled, then the State should provide them with money! Oh wait,they already do, it’s called Social Security Disability Insurance.

Well then, maybe ……………………………………

maybe they can't get a job because of a phone. Oh wait they were all given Obama phones with texting abilities to keep up with the flash mob.

[Detroitnerd]

What "services and subsidies" are you referring to?

I'm obviously talking about a free laptop and phone package for every child a woman has, with a free Cadillac every third child, not to mention food stamp cards that mean a lifetime of free fried chicken and watermelon, all paid for with a special "makes white folks angry" tax on Budweiser, NASCAR, Hooters, Bon Jovi concerts and mid-life-crisis muscle cars.

[cla1945]

CassTechGrad, Noggin^^^^My point exactly.

There are many more services and subsities available today for all who need it, much more than when I was growing up in Detroit back in the late 40's, 50's and 60's; a kid from a fatherless home, raised by grandparents. My grandparents just worked a little harder, worked a little longer at their menial jobs to give me and my siblings a start in life. I went to elementary, jr. high and high school in Detroit because they made sure I got an education. No one got help from anybody, so I would say we were underpriviledged growing up and never caused problems for anyone.

[Detroitnerd]

At the height of the prosperity of the working class, growing up as a child of the favored race in the United States, I just worked a little harder and got what I needed. Why can't today's underclass, with the economy bottoming out, work hard enough so that they can face a lifetime of joblessness with dignity?

[Detroitnerd]

I can only conclude that mean childhoods make mean people. I grew up at the height of working-class prosperity. My dad brought home good wages and I was well-fed, given public school education that ranged from average to excellent, had a high standard of parks and pools and recreation available, and took advantage of lots of the perks of growing up in a place serious about providing education and recreation for young people.

And I think everybody should grow up like that. Whether they "work harder" or not.

[TKshreve]

I'm obviously talking about a free laptop and phone package for every child a woman has, with a free Cadillac every third child, not to mention food stamp cards that mean a lifetime of free fried chicken and watermelon, all paid for with a special "makes white folks angry" tax on Budweiser, NASCAR, Hooters, Bon Jovi concerts and mid-life-crisis muscle cars.

What, are you trying to manifest your boy Frank Rizzo into the conversation?

Getting old

[bailey]

I can only conclude that mean childhoods make mean people. I grew up at the height of working-class prosperity. My dad brought home good wages and I was well-fed, given public school education that ranged from average to excellent, had a high standard of parks and pools and recreation available, and took advantage of lots of the perks of growing up in a place serious about providing education and recreation for young people.

And I think everybody should grow up like that. Whether they "work harder" or not.

The distinction is something you seem to take for granted.. your Dad was in the home. There is a vast social safety net in this country and in this city meant to help get people through bad times. Much of it was listed out above. our "poor" are some of the most cared for and assisted "poor" ever to walk the earth. However, no amount of monetary help will correct the epidemic of single mother households "raising" multiple children from different absent fathers. It's a problem in the mostly black urban centers and it's a problem in poor white rural areas. Throwing more money at it isn't going to change a culture that sees nothing wrong with how they are going about their lives.

[Detroitnerd]

The distinction is something you seem to take for granted.. your Dad was in the home. There is a vast social safety net in this country and in this city meant to help get people through bad times. Much of it was listed out above. our "poor" are some of the most cared for and assisted "poor" ever to walk the earth. However, no amount of monetary help will correct the epidemic of single mother households "raising" multiple children from different absent fathers. It's a problem in the mostly black urban centers and it's a problem in white rural areas. Throwing more money at it isn't going to change a culture that sees nothing wrong with it.

What do you know? My dad was an abusive alcoholic who beat us and screamed at us most of the time he was home. It's a wonder we didn't end up in the hospital more often. I was relieved when he was finally gone and my mother could raise us precariously but lovingly -- and with the benefit of a vibrant public sector to see to my education, nutrition and edification.

Oh, but I guess I took my dad "for granted." Jesus ...

[canuck]

I can only conclude that mean childhoods make mean people. I grew up at the height of working-class prosperity. My dad brought home good wages and I was well-fed, given public school education that ranged from average to excellent, had a high standard of parks and pools and recreation available, and took advantage of lots of the perks of growing up in a place serious about providing education and recreation for young people.

And I think everybody should grow up like that. Whether they "work harder" or not.
...

What do you know? My dad was an abusive alcoholic who beat us and screamed at us most of the time he was home. It's a wonder we didn't end up in the hospital more often. I was relieved when he was finally gone and my mother could raise us precariously but lovingly -- and with the benefit of a vibrant public sector to see to my education, nutrition and edification.

Oh, but I guess I took my dad "for granted." Jesus ...

Wow detroitnerd, can't blame Bailey for being lead by your first post, talk about a bi-polar couple of postings...

[Detroitnerd]

Wow detroitnerd, can't blame Bailey for being lead by your first post, talk about a bi-polar couple of postings...

My childhood was one of extremes. Given the volatile life at home, you can see how much a vibrant, well-funded public sector meant to me. And then he wants to lecture single mothers, when that was the best thing to happen to me, and made me value the public sector even more.

A lot of so-called conservatives like nice little fables. But people are more complicated than nice stories are.

[Gannon]

So they are reporting that nothing happened within the festival safe zone, but my old Park Shelton roomie told me they brought the whole family to the Blast...and saw one teen taken down and arrested fifteen feet from them, just outside the warming tent by the ice sculptures.

They went home shortly afterward. Parked by the coney islands, but got there after the melee, and were wondering why they'd closed up early.



So, more proof the government is covering stuff up again. <sigh> I'd say the media was in collusion, but it is more likely that Channel 4 was the only news crew even in the city that night.

[corktownyuppie]

It's ridiculous that a high profile crime can turn into a debate about the effectiveness of socialism.

This was neighborhood kids brawling with other neighborhood kids who didn't have someone setting limits for them. If families and neighbors won't set the limits, then police will set the limits.

I'm actually big fan of socialism when it comes to education, especially pre-school and elementary ed. But that's for another topic.

Supposedly, that is.

[cla1945]

At the height of the prosperity of the working class, growing up as a child of the favored race in the United States, I just worked a little harder and got what I needed. Why can't today's underclass, with the economy bottoming out, work hard enough so that they can face a lifetime of joblessness with dignity?

With all the services and subsidies available today I would guess they don't want to work, they can make more sitting home and perpetuating the lifestyle.

[AGinthe313]

So they are reporting that nothing happened within the festival safe zone, but my old Park Shelton roomie told me they brought the whole family to the Blast...and saw one teen was taken down and arrested fifteen feet from them, just outside the warming tent by the ice sculptures. They went home shortly afterward.

So, more proof they're covering stuff up again. <sigh>

I heard that a few of the kids ran inside the 24 Grille, picked-up a chair and threw it, and then ran out.

[Detroitnerd]

With all the services and subsidies available today I would guess they don't want to work, they can make more sitting home and perpetuating the lifestyle.

Yes, they give you next year's Cadillac the moment you apply.

This is a common misconception among people who've never had to take advantage of public programs. They are sliced thinner and thinner every year, and they were never a gravy train. Those who think you can live the life of Riley on the public's dime simply don't have any experience with "the welfare."

The sad part is, knowing little and settling for myths, these people are still allowed to affect public policy by mouthing off.

[TKshreve]

This was neighborhood kids brawling with other neighborhood kids who didn't have someone setting limits for them. If families and neighbors won't set the limits, then police will set the limits.

I'm actually big fan of socialism when it comes to education, especially pre-school and elementary ed. But that's for another topic.

Supposedly, that is.

This is certainly not the first time something like this has happened in Detroit or MI either. But the implications are huge for a city like Detroit which has worked hard at climbing out of a hole. More so, it has striven to convince the people of this region that things are coming back and it's ok to come downtown for events, work and living. If this happened in a suburb, the implication would be much less severe. This only perpetuates the idea that Detroit is lawless and filled with vandals and criminals who think they are above the law. Is it?

People will view this event as the uncontrollable, wild west lifestyle of Detroit in general. They will fixate on this mess as another day in the life of Detroit, always unable to control itself, and run by crooks [[legal and of the street).

Good for the DPD being able to apprehend 70+ individuals in this instance. Rather resourceful, but I will guess that the event draw had a lot to do with the DPD being available en masse. And then they released most of them to their parent[[s).... which completes the slap on the wrist.

Huge blemish imo. Sad, because it will turn a variety of people away. Like those who were reconsidering the city after a handful of successful events were experienced without issue.

[bailey]

My childhood was one of extremes. Given the volatile life at home, you can see how much a vibrant, well-funded public sector meant to me. And then he wants to lecture single mothers, when that was the best thing to happen to me, and made me value the public sector even more.

A lot of so-called conservatives like nice little fables. But people are more complicated than nice stories are.

I'm glad you value the public sector and can see what it can do to help keep kids out of trouble. Too bad the elected leaders of Detroit don't share your opinion and have time and time again rejected plan after plan to enhance public resources.

You claim to have had a difficult childhood... however, my point still stands. Your father was still around and [[as you pointed out multiple times) supported you and your family financially. However unstable your childhood was it was idyllic and tranquil compared to what vast numbers of Detroit kids experience today. That is all I'm saying. I'm not making a value judgment or lecturing anyone. I'm simply pointing out facts.

Detroit [[like in poor rural white communities) has an epidemic of single mothers heading households and families being abandoned by the father. It's especially bad in the chronically poor. Go peruse the Data Driven Detroit report. 60% of the families in Detroit are headed by single mothers. 40% of kids in Detroit were born to single mothers and 25% of those Mothers were teenagers. 60% of children in Detroit live in poverty. 82% of kids that attend school are eligible for free lunches. 50% of Detroit's working age population was not working in 2011. There is nothing healthy or positive about any of that.

Also, no one is saying welfare moms get Cadillacs. Drop that tired trope. What we have is a very comprehensive SAFETY NET. By design it's supposed to be temporary assistance, something to get one through calamitous times. For far too many it's a livelihood as to do anything else would likely mean a pay and benefit cut. And that just feeds the negative feedback loop. Throwing more money at it has been proven out to not solve the problem. Culture has to take over. Until that happens, nothing will change.

[Detroitnerd]

Also, no one is saying welfare moms get Cadillacs. Drop that tired trope. What we have is a very comprehensive SAFETY NET. By design it's supposed to be temporary assistance, something to get one through calamitous times. For far too many it's a livelihood as to do anything else would likely mean a pay and benefit cut. And that just feeds the negative feedback loop. Throwing more money at it has been proven out to not solve the problem. Culture has to take over. Until that happens, nothing will change.

The safety net is in tatters. In the inner city, there simply aren't enough jobs. To blame the threadbare safety net for the hopeless despair of inner-city life is a rationalization of things, to say the least.

Anyway, this "personal responsibility" jazz is so American. Single-parent households have exploded in Nordic countries, and somehow they manage to produce new generations of educated, healthy young people with real future opportunities. Studies show that American single-parent families are in dire straits not because a man isn't there, but because of lagging social policies and backsliding public funding -- which would seem to be precisely the opposite conclusion you've come to.

http://sotrueradio.org/index.php/rss...arent-families

[kenp]

Seems the rational is either give them money or their gonna take it. Right ON!!!

[corktownyuppie]

This is certainly not the first time something like this has happened in Detroit or MI either. But the implications are huge for a city like Detroit which has worked hard at climbing out of a hole. More so, it has striven to convince the people of this region that things are coming back and it's ok to come downtown for events, work and living. If this happened in a suburb, the implication would be much less severe. This only perpetuates the idea that Detroit is lawless and filled with vandals and criminals who think they are above the law. Is it?

People will view this event as the uncontrollable, wild west lifestyle of Detroit in general. They will fixate on this mess as another day in the life of Detroit, always unable to control itself, and run by crooks [[legal and of the street).

Good for the DPD being able to apprehend 70+ individuals in this instance. Rather resourceful, but I will guess that the event draw had a lot to do with the DPD being available en masse. And then they released most of them to their parent[[s).... which completes the slap on the wrist.

Huge blemish imo. Sad, because it will turn a variety of people away. Like those who were reconsidering the city after a handful of successful events were experienced without issue.

I agree with the substance of what you say. I do temper my feelings on it somewhat, though. This was a bruise and a blemish, that's for sure. At the same time, there was a story in the news today about men held at gunpoint and robbed at a pizza place at 21 mile rd in Macomb. Another story in AnnArbor.com today features a woman who was held at gunpoint and raped in her bed while her husband and their friends were one floor up standing on a balcony. This was just a few short blocks from campus.

Will this incident drive some people away from downtown? Yes. Is it infuriating and frustrating for those of us who've been working hard to change viewpoints? Yes. All these things are true.

Culture change and perception change is a long slugfest, with 5 steps forward and 3 steps back. I'm going to have my antenna up to see over the next 2-3 years how downtown battles the forces as hundreds/thousands of newcomer start to re-consider the city again. I try not to get to emotional about any one incident and certainly try not to forecast the consequences without a little bit of time and emotional distance.

And, again, for what it's worth...this is a story about the cops showing up, not a story about the cops taking 45 minutes to get there. That's actually a pretty good story in my book.

[Detroitnerd]

Seems the rational is either give them money or their gonna take it. Right ON!!!

Actually, seems the rationale is give them support, care, funding, education and real opportunities so they don't become stunted criminals. Seems to work in Europe.

[laphoque]

A few summers ago I was in Philly and the cops were carding everybody going through the gayborhood. As a Detroiter, I was confused by seeing police out of their cards simply guarding this neighborhood. I guess they had a problem with flash mobs beating people up there.

http://www.epgn.com/view/full_story/...the-Gayborhood