Bargain mansions in Palmer Woods

[p69rrh51]

WOW! And you have the nerve to call me clueless. Do you bother to read some of the other threads on this forum?? To the east, you have an area south of the Michigan State fairgrounds known as Little Beruit. Several weeks ago, there was a thread were a woman grew up there and said it was the worst ghetto in the city. Lots of burned out houses, crack dealers and hookers constantly running in and out of there. Just look on google maps. http://wikimapia.org/19012569/State-Fair-Northend. To the south, you have the Detroit Golf Club and Palmer Park and to the south of that is the Palmer Park Historic district which have half the apartment buildings boarded up [[as I stated earlier). Some of them are still standing after being burned out. Crack heads and homeless people just love going in and out of them. Going towards the University district is pretty bad. There were threads on here about a common tradition down there called pump and dump where a group of hoods would steal your rims and wheels in under a minute from a parked car beside your house and there was a news report of a guy posted on here who bought a house and was moving out because his new car was pumped and dumped in the same month. I can go on and on about news reports on here.

As for Palmer Woods itself. Everybody in that neighbourhood has to pay a $495 association fee to pay a security guard to ride around the neighbourhood all day to keep the crime rate down. Yet, the violent crime rate in Palmer Woods is still double the Michigan average. What suburb are you comparing it to? A trailer park in Warren? "The estimated Palmer Woods violent crime rate is 60% lower than the Detroit average and and the Detroit violent crime rate is 491% higher than the Michigan average."
http://www.areavibes.com/detroit-mi/palmer+woods/crime/

There are so many threads on here. You must be clueless. I'm not even gonna bother posting about more threads on here about Detroit's crime problems. It's a waste of my time. Just read them yourself.



Just because you "value" something doesn't make it a "bargain". Some people "value" seeing a live baseball game at Comerica Park and overpaying for a ticket from a scalper. It doesn't make it a bargain. Value is your appreciation for something. These houses are not a bargain.

Cluelessinwindsor the land to the east there is almost all urban prairie the woman who was attacked was one of the very few left there. You have to go almost a 1/4 mile to find an area that can support crime. I live closer to the warzone in my Grosse Pointe home than PW is to the warzone east of the neighborhood. As for the south you are truly clueless almost all of the empty buildings are restored/being restored/or in line to be restored. So you BS does hold water! As for the west again clueless its Sherwood Forest which is pretty much in the same shape as PW. The UD is to the southwest and is in surprising but not perfect shape. I will grant you to the Northwest GA could be doing a little better. You failed to look at the crimes per thousand residents which for PW not some estimated BS, while not on GP/Birmingham/BH levels its comparable to many suburbs in the city! I am waiting with bated breath for the next clueless comeback!

[Patrick]

Well, for $700K one can have this fine home in Northern VA:

http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...3_M50323-50664

I guess location really does matter most, even if the house sorta sucks. I cannot even fathom what the massive homes in IV and PW would fetch in Arlington.

[Richard]

OMG if you pay market price for something sold on the "open market", it's not a bargain. You're taking "subjective" to a delusional level.

The discussion is about a house not a piece of tile at the flea market,so Fair value & Fair market value would apply ,which is what they are explaining.

I kinda disagree or think a bit different when it comes to vintage houses as rentals.

Hardwood floors = Hard for tenant to mess up and cheaper per sqft to replace then carpet or tile.

Cast iron claw foot tubs,cast iron ped sink in bathroom,cast iron farm or double drainboard sink in kitchen extremely hard to mess up.

Plaster walls = hard to drive nails into and even harder to punch a hole onto.

Your clientele appreciates these things and respects them so they take care of them verses that HD mills pride cabinet that falls apart when it sees water.

You deal with a different class of tenant period.

Glass gets broken which will happen on occasion which is a pia if it is pwavy glass but easy enough to replace when compared to double glazed.

Best of all is you can buy old stuff or salvage cheap and it matches.

Anyways,you are already off of my Christmas list for calling me a commie in another post so if you do reply to this I would need to see.

The minimum of 7 links proving or reinforcing your views or opinions which is what this is and not a pissing contest. Other then that stay warm and safe and have a nice evening.

[davewindsor]

Cluelessinwindsor the land to the east there is almost all urban prairie the woman who was attacked was one of the very few left there. You have to go almost a 1/4 mile to find an area that can support crime. I live closer to the warzone in my Grosse Pointe home than PW is to the warzone east of the neighborhood. As for the south you are truly clueless almost all of the empty buildings are restored/being restored/or in line to be restored. So you BS does hold water! As for the west again clueless its Sherwood Forest which is pretty much in the same shape as PW. The UD is to the southwest and is in surprising but not perfect shape. I will grant you to the Northwest GA could be doing a little better. You failed to look at the crimes per thousand residents which for PW not some estimated BS, while not on GP/Birmingham/BH levels its comparable to many suburbs in the city! I am waiting with bated breath for the next clueless comeback!

Boy are you in denial. Directly to the east is a warzone. There's more than a few people that live in that hood. I dare you to drive around that residential area at night. Bring a video camera as proof. And all the apartment buildings in Palmer Park to the south are being restored. You're clueless. A few buildings is not the whole neighbourhood. There's only enough grants to fund a few buildings like LaVogue. I've driven around that area. It's simply not true. Who the hell is paying for all these renovations?! The market alone could not fund it.

And I guarantee you the crime statistics you have [[even though higher than the Michigan average) is just a small fraction as a lot of those crimes are going unreported as residents think it's pointless to report them.

And now you admit you're from the suburbs. That explains everything. You're just clueless.

[pkbroch]

This thread has gotten so toxic and nasty, it should be shut down. It serves no purpose and is certainly not about a nice article from the WSJ observing a trend in Detroit Historic Neighborhoods.

Enough already, what about the guidelines about personal attacks, Lowell, I feel like I should have the popcorn concession for the next round.

[davewindsor]

The discussion is about a house not a piece of tile at the flea market,so Fair value & Fair market value would apply ,which is what they are explaining.

No, fair market value is what "I'm" trying to explain to them. Comprehension problem? Fair market value does not mean it's bargain priced; it means it's priced according to what it's worth.

PR69... started talking about products at a fleamarkets or "antique" markets like his flatulent tile giving the building a value of $10m+ when the fair market value of the building is $700K [[what someone is willing to pay for it).

I kinda disagree or think a bit different when it comes to vintage houses as rentals.

Your opinions about rentals are irrelevant at this point.

Your clientele appreciates these things and respects them so they take care of them verses that HD mills pride cabinet that falls apart when it sees water.

I agree with this point on cheap sink cabinets, but not necessarily for the same reason. I would buy a pedestal porcelain sink at HD or buy a solid wood cabinet over cheap particle board one any day of the week because it lasts a lot longer, obviously. New or old building. The return on investment is worth it. It doesn't cost 15 times more than a particle cabinet. You're arguing side points to try to thread jack this into something else.

The main point is whether this house is bargain priced. My argument is no, it's not; it is priced at fair market value. That is what it's worth, flatulent tiled lobbies aside [[who really cares, it doesn't make the building worth 15 times more than what it sold for).

[p69rrh51]

Boy are you in denial. Directly to the east is a warzone. There's more than a few people that live in that hood. I dare you to drive around that residential area at night. Bring a video camera as proof. And all the apartment buildings in Palmer Park to the south are being restored. You're clueless. A few buildings is not the whole neighbourhood. There's only enough grants to fund a few buildings like LaVogue. I've driven around that area. It's simply not true. Who the hell is paying for all these renovations?! The market alone could not fund it.

And I guarantee you the crime statistics you have [[even though higher than the Michigan average) is just a small fraction as a lot of those crimes are going unreported as residents think it's pointless to report them.

And now you admit you're from the suburbs. That explains everything. You're just clueless.

When did you do your "drive by-not pay attention" 3 years ago? I walked the area around Palmer Park Apartments a couple weeks ago and I can count only 4 empty buildings that are not receiving any attention[[who cares where the funding is coming from). The rest are in process of being restored or filled. I would be more than happy to show you the progress! Also most of the operating buildings are running close to filled. As for the east there is barely anything between the train tracks and Woodward except for a couple apt. buildings some odd business' and the not finished church. Now east of the train tracks I would not venture into at night. PW is not perfect but you are basing your ASSUMPTIONS on the area as it was 3-4 years ago and much has changed.
Last you have no clue what a warzone is and have no standing to comment, I live with one everyday. Once you have spent some time near one then you have my permission to comment.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

davewindsor, it's your serve.

[Richard]

This thread has gotten so toxic and nasty, it should be shut down. It serves no purpose and is certainly not about a nice article from the WSJ observing a trend in Detroit Historic Neighborhoods.

Enough already, what about the guidelines about personal attacks, Lowell, I feel like I should have the popcorn concession for the next round.

It is just conversation,the write up is a bit confusing though because it is a fluff piece referring to houses that are either not available or very scarce.

"Stephen Williams, a real-estate agent who lived in Palmer Woods for 19 years, says the neighborhood is rebounding, thanks in part to interest from young professionals and empty-nesters and a drop in property-tax rates several years ago when the area became an urban enterprise zone. Right now, he has five clients searching for homes in the area but inventory is tight. "If I could find them a house, they'd buy right now," he says."

So if his clients are searching but cannot find anything what was the end game?

The houses are cheap at 700,000 but there are none for sale so what does it really matter how cheap they are or how expensive they are.Other then saying that Detroit is not all that bad ,look, they have a $700,000 house verses the daily $500 house.

So why did they just not have a piece on historical comparatively affordable large houses in Detroit as a whole?

It was a plug for Mr. Duggin

The caption reads

With grand homes built for the titans of industry, Palmer Woods still draws Motown's elite,while bargains tempt suburbanites; a new neighbor's big plans

[TexasT]

[p69rrh51]

Touche! Very Eloquent.

[canuck]

Who was it once said; "Cluelessness is next to gollyness"?

[p69rrh51]

Who was it once said; "Cluelessness is next to gollyness"?

Please tell us since you are so eager to.

[mwilbert]

So if his clients are searching but cannot find anything what was the end game?

The houses are cheap at 700,000 but there are none for sale so what does it really matter how cheap they are or how expensive they are.Other then saying that Detroit is not all that bad ,look, they have a $700,000 house verses the daily $500 house.

First, it is winter, and housing inventories are low, so it might be hard for a buyer to find a suitable house, but one might still expect that a few more houses might become available come spring. If so, it sounds like there will be buyers.

Second, a lot of people who might want to buy in Palmer Woods might still not want to buy a $700K house. That is on the high end, with proportionate operating costs. It probably isn't reasonable to expect a house that expensive to get snapped up immediately in Detroit, even if it is a bargain.

[davewindsor]

When did you do your "drive by-not pay attention" 3 years ago? I walked the area around Palmer Park Apartments a couple weeks ago and I can count only 4 empty buildings that are not receiving any attention[[who cares where the funding is coming from). The rest are in process of being restored or filled. I would be more than happy to show you the progress! Also most of the operating buildings are running close to filled. As for the east there is barely anything between the train tracks and Woodward except for a couple apt. buildings some odd business' and the not finished church. Now east of the train tracks I would not venture into at night. PW is not perfect but you are basing your ASSUMPTIONS on the area as it was 3-4 years ago and much has changed.
Last you have no clue what a warzone is and have no standing to comment, I live with one everyday. Once you have spent some time near one then you have my permission to comment.

Sorry, I went through there last year. It hasn't really changed. There were a few buildings being renovated like LaVogue. But, that's it. Some looked like they had plaster and their windows removed, but those were just being mothballed, which is completely different from a building being restored or filled. It'll be decades before they get government grants to turn them back into functioning apartments. Once it got dark, people wouldn't even stop at the red lights at McNichols and the crack heads started wandering about, which was my cue to leave.

Both sides of the track are bad to east of Woodward and policing in these areas hasn't improved if they even go there anymore. Keep living in denial if you like. These are still rough areas of the city and its close proximity to Palmer Woods makes it easy for crime to spill over into that area.

[p69rrh51]

Sorry, I went through there last year. It hasn't really changed. There were a few buildings being renovated like LaVogue. But, that's it. Some looked like they had plaster and their windows removed, but those were just being mothballed, which is completely different from a building being restored or filled. It'll be decades before they get government grants to turn them back into functioning apartments. Once it got dark, people wouldn't even stop at the red lights at McNichols and the crack heads started wandering about, which was my cue to leave.

Both sides of the track are bad to east of Woodward and policing in these areas hasn't improved if they even go there anymore. Keep living in denial if you like. These are still rough areas of the city and its close proximity to Palmer Woods makes it easy for crime to spill over into that area.

When a year ago this month. Most of what you saw in PP is now being restored or slated to be-see the Palmer Park Lodge right on Woodward across from La Vogue for starters. Last time I drove through 6 & Woodward at night a month ish ago there was nothing resembling a crackhead at the corner. Yes Highland Park is a problem but crime has shifted as PP is improving itself. I am still wondering why you do not want to tour the area now.
As for the east there is nothing left to support crime to the tracks but like I said earlier I live closer the "warzone" than PW and you already answered the question with private security the crime just like here in GP generally stays away. Even your comment about the woman was committed in "Little Beirut" not in PW. Crime is everywhere even in South Detroit.

http://www.modeldmedia.com/devnews/palmerparkapartmentrehabdetroit011512.aspx?utm_sou rce=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Mor e+Palmer+Park+apts+set+to+come+online+in+Feb%2c+Ap ril&utm_content={Email_Address}&utm_campaign=Shape +of+things+to+come

[Richard]

First, it is winter, and housing inventories are low, so it might be hard for a buyer to find a suitable house, but one might still expect that a few more houses might become available come spring. If so, it sounds like there will be buyers.

Second, a lot of people who might want to buy in Palmer Woods might still not want to buy a $700K house. That is on the high end, with proportionate operating costs. It probably isn't reasonable to expect a house that expensive to get snapped up immediately in Detroit, even if it is a bargain.

I see ,so I wonder what range his clients are looking in and if it being an urban enterprise zone with reduced taxes has an impact on their decision to move there,other then some of the obvious and what the tax break is exactly.

It still baffles me why some of the more per say downtrodden neighborhoods were not also declared a urban enterprise zone which is usually the case when a neighborhood starts going into that slide its a tool to help reverse.

I am not sure on the residential aspect up there but here the tax break is usually for ten years and in some small sections there are no taxes for the ten years as long as you own the property or non transferable.It jump starts a neighborhood real quick but usually reserved for really rough areas. They seem to have their own version of enterprise zones and it gets a bit confusing as to the rational at times.

[Goose]

if you took any of the high rise apartment/condo buildings along the Detroit River and put them on the Gold Coast in Chicago they would be selling for millions...... they must be bargains at 10K a unit....

[mwilbert]

I see ,so I wonder what range his clients are looking in and if it being an urban enterprise zone with reduced taxes has an impact on their decision to move there,other then some of the obvious and what the tax break is exactly.

I'm sure the tax break is a factor for some people, because the taxes on those houses can be pretty high, but as a percentage of the cost of owning those houses it isn't so significant. Right now I'm sure it seems bigger with these low interest rates. The tax break amount is confusing, because if I understand it correctly it is different for the land and for the improvements. On old construction it seems to be in the neighborhood of a 20-25% difference, but I'd be open to correction on that. I've seen much bigger reductions on new construction in Midtown.

It still baffles me why some of the more per say downtrodden neighborhoods were not also declared a urban enterprise zone which is usually the case when a neighborhood starts going into that slide its a tool to help reverse.

I think they felt they could only do a limited number of neighborhoods or the effect would be too diluted--you are trying to concentrate redevelopment into specific areas.

[davewindsor]

When a year ago this month. Most of what you saw in PP is now being restored or slated to be-see the Palmer Park Lodge right on Woodward across from La Vogue for starters. Last time I drove through 6 & Woodward at night a month ish ago there was nothing resembling a crackhead at the corner. Yes Highland Park is a problem but crime has shifted as PP is improving itself. I am still wondering why you do not want to tour the area now.
As for the east there is nothing left to support crime to the tracks but like I said earlier I live closer the "warzone" than PW and you already answered the question with private security the crime just like here in GP generally stays away. Even your comment about the woman was committed in "Little Beirut" not in PW. Crime is everywhere even in South Detroit.

http://www.modeldmedia.com/devnews/palmerparkapartmentrehabdetroit011512.aspx?utm_sou rce=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Mor e+Palmer+Park+apts+set+to+come+online+in+Feb%2c+Ap ril&utm_content={Email_Address}&utm_campaign=Shape +of+things+to+come

The article mentions three apartment buildings--Palmer Lodge, Sarasota and Seville--for a total of 102 units. It's the same company that used the affordable housing grants for La Vogue and they doing it for the other three as well. It's just one company--Shelborne developments-that's doing it and all of them must reserve so many apartments for low income tenants before they can offer the other units for market rate tenants. That's a requirement.

First, these 4 buildings are not most of the buildings in Palmer Park. With La Vogue, it's just those 4 in the past two years. The rest are being mothballed. The worst part of these rehabs is the "low income" tenant requirement. Why would somebody who makes $100K a year at say, Quicken Loans or the DMC, want to live in a building with someone who makes under $20K a year? The higher income earner [[if they take a gamble living there) is going to get their locks picked or doors kicked open while they are at work and their possessions stolen. And it may not even be the low income tenants who were screened really well, but their friend or relative who's visiting from the other side of Woodward that's doing it. It's a recipe for perpetuating the same crime problems that caused these buildings to go under in the first place.

What's going to happen is those higher income earners are going to get robbed and rumours will spread around the building and all the higher income earners will move out and you're just going to have low income tenants fill up those other apartments, the gang bangers and crack dealers [[if they didn't get in already as a low-income tenants) will get in there, more crack heads will break into more apartments to feed their habit, and it's going to go downhill from there and the neighbourhood isn't going to get any better.

The redevelopment formula for those vacant Palmer Park buildings is set up to make the whole area fail and that mess will spread up north. In fact, Palmer Park would probably have been better off not redeveloping those buildings as the apartment buildings that continue to be active are not restricted by low income tenant requirements.

[Richard]

Totally irrelevant DW the 20% is based on lower then the average medium rent and is only applicable for a fixed number of years,usually 5.

You have 80% watching the 20% which is even lower because it is not because they are low income as you say,low income would be service industry personal,some cases teachers,LEO and students that are starting out, you have to be employed and have somewhat of a credit record so watch your classification and views on who low income represents.

You build/rehabilitate a complex using HUD 20% rule for 5 years,then you sell the buildings and the new owners walk in being able to add the 20% to the black. It is really in the best interest not to allow your complex to become a drug haven.

[p69rrh51]

The article mentions three apartment buildings--Palmer Lodge, Sarasota and Seville--for a total of 102 units. It's the same company that used the affordable housing grants for La Vogue and they doing it for the other three as well. It's just one company--Shelborne developments-that's doing it and all of them must reserve so many apartments for low income tenants before they can offer the other units for market rate tenants. That's a requirement.

First, these 4 buildings are not most of the buildings in Palmer Park. With La Vogue, it's just those 4 in the past two years. The rest are being mothballed. The worst part of these rehabs is the "low income" tenant requirement. Why would somebody who makes $100K a year at say, Quicken Loans or the DMC, want to live in a building with someone who makes under $20K a year? The higher income earner [[if they take a gamble living there) is going to get their locks picked or doors kicked open while they are at work and their possessions stolen. And it may not even be the low income tenants who were screened really well, but their friend or relative who's visiting from the other side of Woodward that's doing it. It's a recipe for perpetuating the same crime problems that caused these buildings to go under in the first place.

What's going to happen is those higher income earners are going to get robbed and rumours will spread around the building and all the higher income earners will move out and you're just going to have low income tenants fill up those other apartments, the gang bangers and crack dealers [[if they didn't get in already as a low-income tenants) will get in there, more crack heads will break into more apartments to feed their habit, and it's going to go downhill from there and the neighbourhood isn't going to get any better.

The redevelopment formula for those vacant Palmer Park buildings is set up to make the whole area fail and that mess will spread up north. In fact, Palmer Park would probably have been better off not redeveloping those buildings as the apartment buildings that continue to be active are not restricted by low income tenant requirements.

Talk about denial the area is being improved and you do not want it to. Stay in your hovel in South Detroit and live a useless life. Time to go don't waste your time I will not be back.

[davewindsor]

Totally irrelevant DW the 20% is based on lower then the average medium rent and is only applicable for a fixed number of years,usually 5.

You have 80% watching the 20% which is even lower because it is not because they are low income as you say,low income would be service industry personal,some cases teachers,LEO and students that are starting out, you have to be employed and have somewhat of a credit record so watch your classification and views on who low income represents.

You build/rehabilitate a complex using HUD 20% rule for 5 years,then you sell the buildings and the new owners walk in being able to add the 20% to the black. It is really in the best interest not to allow your complex to become a drug haven.

It's totally relevant and really wishful thinking to suggest that all the low income tenants will be perfect and all the friends that visit them will be perfect, especially in this city. The reality is it won't. This isn't even walking distance to WSU or DM.

I've been in the rental business a long time and I know what the majority of applicants in the low income bracket will look like. And, if they do "look" perfect on their application [[which is a huge stretch in this city), I guarantee you their associates that visit them won't be. People tend to hang around with people in their own income brackets. It's gonna be a mess. You're gonna have burglaries of other apartments related to friends of the low income tenants, but you won't have enough grounds to evict them at landlord tenant court. Some are going to deal crack. And the quality of tenants are going to go down hill as the landlord can't afford to have an empty building holding out for high income earners to rent an apartment, just like it when the building went bankrupt and vacant the first time around. I've seen it time and time again.

They're not going to pay off the HUD grants to remove the 20% requirement because the building would never appreciate that much to justify it. It's all wishful thinking on your part. Not gonna happen. History has proven it won't.

[davewindsor]

Talk about denial the area is being improved and you do not want it to. Stay in your hovel in South Detroit and live a useless life. Time to go don't waste your time I will not be back.

So, are you going to move into one of these new apartments like La Vogue and put your money where your mouth is since it's better than living next to that warzone you live at now? When?

[Richard]

It's totally relevant and really wishful thinking to suggest that all the low income tenants will be perfect and all the friends that visit them will be perfect, especially in this city. The reality is it won't. This isn't even walking distance to WSU or DM.

I've been in the rental business a long time and I know what the majority of applicants in the low income bracket will look like. And, if they do "look" perfect on their application [[which is a huge stretch in this city), I guarantee you their associates that visit them won't be. People tend to hang around with people in their own income brackets. It's gonna be a mess. You're gonna have burglaries of other apartments related to friends of the low income tenants, but you won't have enough grounds to evict them at landlord tenant court. Some are going to deal crack. And the quality of tenants are going to go down hill as the landlord can't afford to have an empty building holding out for high income earners to rent an apartment, just like it when the building went bankrupt and vacant the first time around. I've seen it time and time again.

They're not going to pay off the HUD grants to remove the 20% requirement because the building would never appreciate that much to justify it. It's all wishful thinking on your part. Not gonna happen. History has proven it won't.

Maybe you should up your game in the rental business if you rent dumps you are going to deal not so respectful clientele.I screen my tenants and do not allow the BS from the start.

Did you know when you accept HUD as a tenant if you get caught or even you have a guest that gets caught with drugs it is automatic cause for eviction jeopardizing the safety of peace of mind to fellow tenants is also cause.

I am also in the rental business and have been for many years but I have no clue when it comes to multi family over 30 units, so then I have to rely on acquaintances that are in the business who own more then 600 complexes from Kansas to Miami, 200 plus units each complex some in not so nice areas because land is cheaper, but they are nice with gated security and they run a tight ship with proper management.

Granted Detroit may have its ilks but every city in this country has its ilks and an apartment in the hood is an apartment in the hood no matter where you go.

But this is all kinda pointless and useless bits of information because it has nothing to do with the OP.