Watching the guv...

[michimoby]

To me, Snyder really seems unconcerned with the quality of life of the average Michigander, but totally in favor of catering to businesses. Businesses are then supposed to magically dole out good-paying jobs to us, but I'm quite skeptical of that idea.

Do you expect jobs to simply be created out of thin air?

This is why it rankles me when RTW, Snyder, etc. are bashed for being pro-business: trickle-down, despite its criticisms, is far more effective than screaming and hollering at RTW being passed in the first place. We've encountered incredible amounts of stagnation in this city, and it's only because guys like Gilbert are trying to build up an effective business climate that anything's changing.

That approach only works with highly-educated workers...at the moment. Critical mass opens the doors for more vocational and minimum wage jobs to be opened up. Business begets business.

[Wesley Mouch]

Dear Rick,

Reform is really hard. I admire you for taking it on. Michigan and Detroit are having really hard times with this economy. I have confidence that your efforts will pay off.

Don't pay too much attention to those who hate you. They mean well. But they are too tied to the old ways of doing things that have proven not to work. So keep up the good work. Let's try something different. Keep on being a radical and fighting the man -- I mean Unions. Let's take care of everyone, not just those privileged 10% who are in a Union. Give us all a vibrant economy.

[Detroitnerd]

Dear Rick,

Reform is really hard. I admire you for taking it on. Michigan and Detroit are having really hard times with this economy. I have confidence that your efforts will pay off.

Don't pay too much attention to those who hate you. They mean well. But they are too tied to the old ways of doing things that have proven not to work. So keep up the good work. Let's try something different. Keep on being a radical and fighting the man -- I mean Unions. Let's take care of everyone, not just those privileged 10% who are in a Union. Give us all a vibrant economy.

Haw haw haw! That's really funny. I always wondered how extreme right-wingers prayed at night.

[nain rouge]

I'm surprised more people still aren't upset about the Pure Michigan right-to-work ad. I don't think anyone envisioned Pure Michigan as a political soapbox - it's explicit purpose was to advertise the natural bounty and charming cities of Michigan to the rest of the country.

What's next? Sending out park rangers to police protests by the unions?

[michimoby]

Haw haw haw! That's really funny. I always wondered how extreme right-wingers prayed at night.

I thought it was pretty level-headed myself. we seem to have quickly forgotten that Granholm spent more of her time trying to convince people that Michigan was "cool" rather than actually getting her hands dirty and developing pragmatic ideas to draw in business.

Know what's cool? An improving credit rating, for one. http://www.michigan.gov/midashboard/...492---,00.html

[Detroitnerd]

I thought it was pretty level-headed myself.

No, not level-headed. It is a mythological view of how economies work, tailor-made to blame predetermined political entities and praise policies that do not work the way they are claimed to [[Laffer Curve, etc.).

And I think it's interesting that when discussing the policies of Gov. Snyder, good old spineless Gov. Granholm is just a knee-jerk away. I never liked her anyway, but I wasn't praising her, so I think you just kind of bring her up because you presume I was her champion. I wasn't. She was a failure, a noble failure.

Gov. Snyder is teaming up with the looniest [[anti-choice), most corrupt [[Jase Bolger's election tricks), most anti-city [[Bob Schostak's Detroit-bashing), most anti-worker [[Koch bros.) forces to push a far-right agenda in that is destructive to the majority of the state's residents. End of story.

But it's your Constitutional right to pray. Nice little prayer, Wes. G'nite.

[Hypestyles]

did Snyder say anything at all about the regional transit authority?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Do we accept as a premise that businesses and capital tend to flee toward lower-costing and less regulated areas, provided the workforce is either capable or trainable? [[I think we should. Look, for a very recent example, at how CAW lost the Camaro's production to the US and UAW because costs were too high in Oshawa, Ontario.)

Operating under that premise, and that borders are more open than they have ever been, you have two choices:

[[1) Reach out to businesses with stuff like the tax code rewrite and RTW, even if you have to hold your nose when you do it, so the state actually has jobs.
[[2) Keep doing the same-old, same-old and watch jobs continue to flee the state.

So it's a rock and a hard place issue, but I think most people would rather see more lower-paying jobs than fewer higher-paying jobs, given our unemployment rate right now [[8.9%, I believe).

You try raising a family on 8-10 dollars per hr, and see how far you get. RTW will create more menial jobs that most families can't survive on. All Snyder wants to do is create low paying minimum wage jobs, so he can take the credit in Michigan's "so called" turnaround. B.S. If anything, more people will be leaving Michigan.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Dear Rick,

Reform is really hard. I admire you for taking it on. Michigan and Detroit are having really hard times with this economy. I have confidence that your efforts will pay off.

Don't pay too much attention to those who hate you. They mean well. But they are too tied to the old ways of doing things that have proven not to work. So keep up the good work. Let's try something different. Keep on being a radical and fighting the man -- I mean Unions. Let's take care of everyone, not just those privileged 10% who are in a Union. Give us all a vibrant economy.

Yeah right. A vibrant economy for a chosen few. Everyone won't be riding that train. Unions helped create the Middle Class that the Far Right are taking away. Snyder's agenda isn't about creating jobs anyway. It's about stripping power from the Dems. You keep promoting YOUR Governor.

[Eber Brock Ward]

You try raising a family on 8-10 dollars per hr, and see how far you get. RTW will create more menial jobs that most families can't survive on. All Snyder wants to do is create low paying minimum wage jobs, so he can take the credit in Michigan's "so called" turnaround. B.S. If anything, more people will be leaving Michigan.

Totally agreed that it's very difficult.

But it beats the alternative of "no job".

[Novine]

Lies? Doesn't everyone remember when Snyder ran for office telling us that he was going to raise taxes on pension and homeowners and parents? I know my local representative sent me mailers when he was running for re-election telling us how he was going to vote for all of the tax increases that Snyder pushed through in the past 2 years.

[Hermod]

Lies? Doesn't everyone remember when Snyder ran for office telling us that he was going to raise taxes on pension and homeowners and parents? I know my local representative sent me mailers when he was running for re-election telling us how he was going to vote for all of the tax increases that Snyder pushed through in the past 2 years.

I remember when George Romney rolled out the first Michigan income tax back in the mid-60s. I was in the Army then and military pay was exempt from the tax. While I certainly enjoyed not have 4.8% [[as i recall) of my income go to taxes when I was in service, the break was rather unique among state tax policies. Michigan exempted military pay and pensions from the state taxes and I never understood why when most of the other states taxed this just like any other income.

[poobert]

Do you expect jobs to simply be created out of thin air?

This is why it rankles me when RTW, Snyder, etc. are bashed for being pro-business: trickle-down, despite its criticisms, is far more effective than screaming and hollering at RTW being passed in the first place. We've encountered incredible amounts of stagnation in this city, and it's only because guys like Gilbert are trying to build up an effective business climate that anything's changing.

That approach only works with highly-educated workers...at the moment. Critical mass opens the doors for more vocational and minimum wage jobs to be opened up. Business begets business.

You really just made a case against your boy. Dan Gilbert isn't stumping around screaming about unions like you folks. He isn't bitching about government or taxes. He has a knowledge and information-based, diversified corporation. Would I like to work for Quicken? Hell yes. Would I like some freakishly unreliable assembly line drone job, always in fear of losing it to some Mexican? Fuck no. You couldn't pay me twice what I'm making for that bullshit. And I'd rather be set on fire than work some slave labor retail crap.

Basically Michigan can go in two directions. It can be like a place like Massachusetts, or a place like Mississippi [[the right-to-work paradise that it is). In doling out proverbial blow jobs to businesses and completely ignoring/slashing education, human capital in general, and shafting municipalities [[personal property tax - I don't see Gilbert complaining about the price of his office chairs), the Snyder 1.0 is setting us down the Michissippi path. You guys can keep your moronic "make things better for corporations and sit back and hope for mediocrity" junk. I'm out.

The fact is that Michigan's unemployment rate is at 8.9%. That's the exact same place it was at a year ago. Helluva job he's doing.

[Novine]

"Michigan exempted military pay and pensions from the state taxes and I never understood why when most of the other states taxed this just like any other income."

All I remember is that Snyder never said one word about raising taxes on pensions or cutting tax credits for having kids or to help out the working poor or for donating to the DIA. His flunkies in the House and Senate ran on "no new taxes" pledges. But once elected, they cut taxes for businesses and raised taxes on almost everyone else. That's why people can rightly call them all liars.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Snyder is a _ickhead that I hope is a 1 term _ickhead.

[Wesley Mouch]

"Michigan exempted military pay and pensions from the state taxes and I never understood why when most of the other states taxed this just like any other income."

All I remember is that Snyder never said one word about raising taxes on pensions or cutting tax credits for having kids or to help out the working poor or for donating to the DIA. His flunkies in the House and Senate ran on "no new taxes" pledges. But once elected, they cut taxes for businesses and raised taxes on almost everyone else. That's why people can rightly call them all liars.

OK I've heard this drivel way too many times now. Can't stop myself.

Why on earth would anyone interested in fairness want to make pensions exempt from tax? This baffles me.

Michigan state tax is progressive. We provide exemptions and deductions so those who don't make a lot don't pay much. That's quite fair.

So tell me this, why a retiree making $150,000 on their stock market investments not pay state income tax?

Give me one good reason.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

OK I've heard this drivel way too many times now. Can't stop myself.

Why on earth would anyone interested in fairness want to make pensions exempt from tax? This baffles me.

Michigan state tax is progressive. We provide exemptions and deductions so those who don't make a lot don't pay much. That's quite fair.

So tell me this, why a retiree making $150,000 on their stock market investments not pay state income tax?

Give me one good reason.

Most retirees don't have $150,000 stock market investments. Especially those that retired from the private sector. Now those that retired from public sector jobs, Police Chiefs, Corporate Administrators, Judges, City and County workers etc... They are the one's raping the system. The people that retire from one job, collect a pension from it, then get another high paying job. I've seen some County workers pensions reach over $100,000 a year, is that a fair pension? Most retirees don't have pensions over $50,000 per year. Get a clue. Pensions for the "regular joes" should not have been taxed.

[Wesley Mouch]

Most retirees don't have $150,000 stock market investments. Especially those that retired from the private sector. Now those that retired from public service jobs, Police Chiefs, Corporate Administrators, Judges, City and County workers etc... They are the one's raping the system. The people that retire from one job, collect a pension from it, then get another high paying job. I've seen some County workers pensions reach over $100,000 a year, is that a fair pension? Most retirees don't have pensions over $50,000 per year. Get a clue. Pensions for the "regular joes" should not have been taxed.

No, most don't have $150,000 stock market investments. But some do.

My question is why do you want those 1%ers who do have $150,000 annual investment income to evade tax on their state pension?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

No, most don't have $150,000 stock market investments. But some do.

My question is why do you want those 1%ers who do have $150,000 annual investment income to evade tax on their state pension?

You didn't read my post correctly. I said they should, it's the pensioners who earn less than $50,000 dollars per year that shouldn't have to pay taxes. The one's earning over a 100 grand per year are the one's that should pay.

[Wesley Mouch]

You didn't read my post correctly. I said they should, it's the pensioners who earn less than $50,000 dollars per year that shouldn't have to pay taxes. The one's earning over a 100 grand per year are the one's that should pay.

Why should a GM retiree who gets a pension of $30,000 [[and I know one) pay taxes on their pension then? Why only state pensioners?

[Hermod]

OK I've heard this drivel way too many times now. Can't stop myself.

Why on earth would anyone interested in fairness want to make pensions exempt from tax? This baffles me.

Michigan state tax is progressive. We provide exemptions and deductions so those who don't make a lot don't pay much. That's quite fair.

So tell me this, why a retiree making $150,000 on their stock market investments not pay state income tax?

Give me one good reason.

Retirees pay taxes on dividends, interest, and capital gains. they just don't pay state income tax on the pension amount. It is a deductible. You show it and then deduct it. The remaining income is taxed.

[Wesley Mouch]

Retirees pay taxes on dividends, interest, and capital gains. they just don't pay state income tax on the pension amount. It is a deductible. You show it and then deduct it. The remaining income is taxed.

Allow me to beat my dead horse here.

The only argument offered for why retirees should receive their pension monies tax-free was that if they only make $50k or less, it shouldn't be taxes.

Our tax laws provide tax relief to those who have low incomes. And that's reasonable.

But this is no reason to tax a retiree from GM who makes, say, $30k in retirement and not tax a retiree with a state pension. Its blatantly unfair.

And its a huge loophole. This break allows some people who make a lot of money to avoid paying their fair share.

Snyder is applying fairness to the tax law. To use his sense of fairness against him is disingenuous or self-serving. Snyder is doing what Democrats want here. He's taxing the rich. Someone making $20,000 in state retirement will have a small tax increase. Someone making $80,000 in state retirement will have a LARGE tax increase.

Let's be fair. Thanks, Governor Snyder, for applying fairness.

Horse now appears dead to me.

[kenp]

stop making sense Wesley Mouch.

[Don K]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I'd much rather Michigan find a way to emulate Massachusetts [[4th in median family income), Minnesota [[9th), Colorado [[12th), or Washington [[13th), than follow the path of Mississippi [[50th), Arkansas [[49th), Alabama [[45th), or Tennessee [[44th). Once Michigan trashes its public schools and universities and its environment and its infrastructure, it will forever be a poor state, dependent on subsidies from the federal government to get by.

Recasting Michigan as a tech-friendly, information-society economy will create good-paying jobs that will keep our college graduates in the state, but also will create jobs for lower-skilled workers, not only in retail and restaurants but in skilled trades. Following the path of Mississippi will mire us in an economy of low-wage jobs, with the smartest of our kids moving off to greener pastures elsewhere, whether they want to or not.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I'd much rather Michigan find a way to emulate Massachusetts [[4th in median family income), Minnesota [[9th), Colorado [[12th), or Washington [[13th), than follow the path of Mississippi [[50th), Arkansas [[49th), Alabama [[45th), or Tennessee [[44th). Once Michigan trashes its public schools and universities and its environment and its infrastructure, it will forever be a poor state, dependent on subsidies from the federal government to get by.

Recasting Michigan as a tech-friendly, information-society economy will create good-paying jobs that will keep our college graduates in the state, but also will create jobs for lower-skilled workers, not only in retail and restaurants but in skilled trades. Following the path of Mississippi will mire us in an economy of low-wage jobs, with the smartest of our kids moving off to greener pastures elsewhere, whether they want to or not.

Well played, Michigan is headed down the path of Mississippi.