Federal Funding [[$25 million) for M-1 Light Rail

[Honky Tonk]

But it is difficult to have a city without rail transit.

I would venture to say "reliable transit" instead.

[Shollin]

Except they don't. I've witnessed plenty of those so-called "rapid" buses sitting at lights, waiting for them to change. The Euclid Avenue Bus "Rapid" Transit is marginally faster than the #6 route it replaced...primarily because there are fewer stops. Not bad for $250 million, huh?

First you say you want a subway or el. Then you say you want "bus rapid transit". Which is it? I think you're confused.

I said if we're doing rail, I would want subway or an el. If not, the BRT has been very successful in Cleveland, spurring billions in development and has been every bit as effecient as light rail, plus it's caused billions of dollars in development in Cleveland. I guess your anecdotal evidence of seeing a bus at a light is proof enough despite what studies have shown? I suppose the GPS in light rail would magically work better?

[Shollin]

I'm also confused why we can't use the existing tracks that follow Woodward all the way up to Pontiac? It would be faster and more efficient. You already have stations built in Pontiac, Birmingham, and Royal Oak.

[Gistok]

I'm also confused why we can't use the existing tracks that follow Woodward all the way up to Pontiac? It would be faster and more efficient. You already have stations built in Pontiac, Birmingham, and Royal Oak.

Are you talking about the track 1 mile east of Woodward that was partly removed for the Dequindre Cut? That train has left the station...

[Shollin]

Are you talking about the track 1 mile east of Woodward that was partly removed for the Dequindre Cut? That train has left the station...

The one that Amtrak uses. It runs next to the fair grounds and there's an Amtrak station in New Center. It would be cheaper and more efficient to use those exisiting rails to service the suburbs and then they can transfer to a BRT or light rail in Detroit and continue downtown. I can't imagine sitting on a light rail running down Woodward from downtown all the way out to Pontiac.

[Detroitnerd]

It has to do with who owns the railroad.

[Detroitnerd]

Amtrak owns surprisingly little railroad mileage.

I think the old SMART [[SEMTA) used to run a commuter train on that line downtown in the mornings and outbound after work. If I remember right, they discontinued it around 1979 to 1981 or so.

[Shollin]

Metra in Chicago runs on tracks it doesn't own. I remember the commuter line. I know it didn't last long.

[ArmDetroit]

Things are moving forward with the Ann Arbor - Detroit Regional Rail Project which uses existing tracks from New Center out to Ann Arbor. I'm sure that if the project is successful there would be consideration given to expand operations out to Pontiac seems as how the tracks are already in place. Don't take anything I say as fact as it is mere speculation.

http://www.semcog.org/AADD.aspx

[WPitonya]

I wonder how soon shovels can realistically get into the ground...does anyone think this is possible by the summer?

[ghettopalmetto]

I said if we're doing rail, I would want subway or an el. If not, the BRT has been very successful in Cleveland, spurring billions in development and has been every bit as effecient as light rail, plus it's caused billions of dollars in development in Cleveland. I guess your anecdotal evidence of seeing a bus at a light is proof enough despite what studies have shown? I suppose the GPS in light rail would magically work better?

Ha ha! Thanks for the laugh. Have you ever BEEN to Cleveland? I suggest you stop reading press releases and take a weekend trip. It might be educational.

I'd like to know where these "billions of dollars" of development are, because I sure as hell didn't see them in November. Let's bear in mind that Downtown Cleveland and University Circle are the #1 and #2 employment hubs, respectively, in Northeast Ohio. Euclid Avenue runs between them. To take every project in the pipeline and attribute it to the lousy bus is just disingenuous. Why didn't development occur with the old #6 bus--oh wait, it already was occurring!

I'm going to venture a wild-ass guess, and presume that the bulk of this "new development" consists of the following:

1. Cleveland Clinic expansion [[which is ongoing and endless)
2. Cleveland State University evolution into a residential campus
3. Cleveland Museum of Art expansion
4. Medical Mart and Convention Center, which Cuyahoga County has wanted to do since the 1990s.
5. Danny Gilbert's Horseshoe Casino
6. Cuyahoga County purchase of the old Ameritrust building at E 9th and Euclid for new county office building

As an educated person might surmise, these aren't exactly "market-dependent" projects. These investments were going to occur regardless--lipstick-pig bus or no. But RTA isn't one to let truth to get in the way of a good story. They'd really hate to see their $250 million landscaping project perceived as a flop.

I have yet to see a single infill project adjacent to one of the BRT "stations".

[Shollin]

Ha ha! Thanks for the laugh. Have you ever BEEN to Cleveland? I suggest you stop reading press releases and take a weekend trip. It might be educational.

I'd like to know where these "billions of dollars" of development are, because I sure as hell didn't see them in November. Let's bear in mind that Downtown Cleveland and University Circle are the #1 and #2 employment hubs, respectively, in Northeast Ohio. Euclid Avenue runs between them. To take every project in the pipeline and attribute it to the lousy bus is just disingenuous. Why didn't development occur with the old #6 bus--oh wait, it already was occurring!

I'm going to venture a wild-ass guess, and presume that the bulk of this "new development" consists of the following:

1. Cleveland Clinic expansion [[which is ongoing and endless)
2. Cleveland State University evolution into a residential campus
3. Cleveland Museum of Art expansion
4. Medical Mart and Convention Center, which Cuyahoga County has wanted to do since the 1990s.
5. Danny Gilbert's Horseshoe Casino
6. Cuyahoga County purchase of the old Ameritrust building at E 9th and Euclid for new county office building

As an educated person might surmise, these aren't exactly "market-dependent" projects. These investments were going to occur regardless--lipstick-pig bus or no. But RTA isn't one to let truth to get in the way of a good story. They'd really hate to see their $250 million landscaping project perceived as a flop.

I have yet to see a single infill project adjacent to one of the BRT "stations".

I have been to Cleveland and it's in much better shape than Detroit. At least they had a national retailer within the city limits and as I recall the street lights worked.

There has been 4.3 billion dollars worth of investment along Euclid Ave. Yet you think if the bus was connected to a rail in the ground and would cost twice as much to implement, would somehow make it better?

"Earlier this year, in fact, the value of development projects recently completed, under way or planned along the avenue between Public Square and University Circle had reached $4.3 billion. The entire amount couldn't be attributed specifically to the RTA project, but many developers said the impending completion of the line was a major factor in their decision to launch housing and office projects along the avenue."

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/11/_cleveland_a_city_fighting.html

[dtowncitylover]

1. If you wanted a subway or el, please build a time machine and go back to the following decades: the 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s, 30s, and 20s and please tell the transportation heads in Detroit to build a subway/el. Because right now, it's too late. It's too expensive and we CAN'T do it. Unless you want to fork up, let's say, $50 billion, please can we all quit on saying we need a subway/el. It's not going to happen.

2. We can't use rail track for light rail because I think they are two different types of tracks. It would be nice to implement commuter rail between Detroit and Flint but right now that isn't happening. Detroit and Pontiac have been alot more quickly accessible in the past 50 years that light rail could work between the two since some light rail lines across the world are that long and longer.

3. We need to aim alot higher than BRT. I believe we can do it. I'm not totally against BRT but we must do better Cleveland. We are the better city; in the past, and yes in the present, and we can become even better in the future.

I'm sorry, it's Cleveland. CLEVELAND, PEOPLE! I mean, c'mon.

Shollin, #1 isn't necessarily aimed at you; you aren't the first person to post about it, I'm just sick of hearing it.

[Shollin]

Um, Detroit isn't the better city. Cleveland already has rail transit, BRT, national retailers, street lights, half the murder rate, and a city government that isn't on the verge on insolvency. Cities across the US including Chicago have studied Cleveland's BRT. Even though BRT is cheaper, more flexible, and just as efficient, we can't have none of that in Detroit. We must pay double and have a train just because it's a train and because Cleveland has a BRT [[even though Cleveland already has rail transit).

[Shollin]

I'm sorry, Cleveland's murder rate is only a 3rd of Detroit's.

[begingri]

I hope I'm proven wrong. I truly do. But I'm beginning to think more and more that this is simply People Mover II.

I know the population in the area is growing, but how many people are truly going to utilize this stretch of rail outside of special events? Will there be any increase in ridership compared to the bus route that is currently there? Will these 3.3 miles of rail spur any additional development outside of what is already occurring?

The answers remain to be seen. But as of this moment, I'm not convinced.

[Richard]

I guess there are many different factors involved,if you live close to a street car and wish to get from point A to point B which would you prefer,get in the car and drive and find parking at the the other end or jump on the street car and go.

It is more about having different transportation options,car breaks down what do you do miss a days work,but there is a difference in riding a bus verses a street car,more so like an experience and street cars have a different outlook for some then others when there is the bus stigma so there will be those who would ride a street car that would not be caught on a bus.

The immediate impact concerning development is within a three block radius on each side of the route so you can place the route on a commercial path with residential in the blocks behind although the ideal situation is the storefronts with apartments on top so you can step out of your house and have easy excess to the cars.

The first leg is just that, now if the RTA gets together and uses available funds and starts with the connector runs connecting all rails to downtown like from the suburbs and places like Highland park,Corktown utilizing the regional aspect then you would see an impact,the amount of revenue gained from events downtown would make up for a slower weekly run. Come to the city see the game and enjoy the sites have a few cocktails and enjoy a safe trip back home so it all becomes a pleasant experience.

Its a small run but even if it was pedal powered it is a start and a statement that shows that the city is moving forward in a progressive way and the city needs that right now.There are lots of city's that would like rail,think of how they would feel if Detroit has rail and they do not,kinda hard to diss somebody that is more progressive then you.

[Honky Tonk]

I hope I'm proven wrong. I truly do. But I'm beginning to think more and more that this is simply People Mover II.

I know the population in the area is growing, but how many people are truly going to utilize this stretch of rail outside of special events? Will there be any increase in ridership compared to the bus route that is currently there? Will these 3.3 miles of rail spur any additional development outside of what is already occurring?

The answers remain to be seen. But as of this moment, I'm not convinced.

I feel the same. When the People Remover was conceived, monorails were going to save our Cities. It was the latest thing, EVERY developing metropolis has one! Development and restoration was happening on Washington Blvd. Years later, little has progressed, more dead bodies, more people gone or on the verge of. You're going to run the train up Detroit's busiest, congested corridor? How many new modern-day buses can be bought with 25 million? How much larger of a public transportation area could they cover? We already have one thing going in circles, now we'll have another going back and forth.

[Honky Tonk]

I guess there are many different factors involved,if you live close to a street car and wish to get from point A to point B which would you prefer,get in the car and drive and find parking at the the other end or jump on the street car and go.

It is more about having different transportation options,car breaks down what do you do miss a days work,but there is a difference in riding a bus verses a street car,more so like an experience and street cars have a different outlook for some then others when there is the bus stigma so there will be those who would ride a street car that would not be caught on a bus.

The immediate impact concerning development is within a three block radius on each side of the route so you can place the route on a commercial path with residential in the blocks behind although the ideal situation is the storefronts with apartments on top so you can step out of your house and have easy excess to the cars.

The first leg is just that, now if the RTA gets together and uses available funds and starts with the connector runs connecting all rails to downtown like from the suburbs and places like Highland park,Corktown utilizing the regional aspect then you would see an impact,the amount of revenue gained from events downtown would make up for a slower weekly run. Come to the city see the game and enjoy the sites have a few cocktails and enjoy a safe trip back home so it all becomes a pleasant experience.

Its a small run but even if it was pedal powered it is a start and a statement that shows that the city is moving forward in a progressive way and the city needs that right now.There are lots of city's that would like rail,think of how they would feel if Detroit has rail and they do not,kinda hard to diss somebody that is more progressive then you.

Wonderful vision, Richard. Cost wise, how much would all these rails and connectors cost to develop? Where is the funding coming from? What ridership is going to support it? What is @ the end of all these rails to make people want to ride them? Boutique cufflink stores? On one hand you have a herd of us regressive naysayers, on the other, a herd of lemmings.

[Richard]

Street cars are not the latest thing they have been around awhile and unless a bus is also run in a designated lane you still get stuck behind them ,use them to shuttle people from the neighborhoods to the line, smaller LNG powered so you can cover more routes at a lower cost.

If the street car is in a designated track it is not adding to congestion or if more rode it there would be less congestion or one could just add more lanes to the road so you can fit more cars but then you might as well use the same funds to relive congestion verses adding to it.

But it is like everything else some are for and some are against it does not make anyone bad,it makes it America.

[Richard]

Wonderful vision, Richard. Cost wise, how much would all these rails and connectors cost to develop? Where is the funding coming from? What ridership is going to support it? What is @ the end of all these rails to make people want to ride them? Boutique cufflink stores? On one hand you have a herd of us regressive naysayers, on the other, a herd of lemmings.

Well it all depends say for instance you make a connector run from Hamatrac to downtown,Conrail does not want cars plugging up their lines for good reasons but they would not be apposed to allowing use of the ROW,so is there a line that could be placed from there to downtown serving a large percentage of the population and workforce that would have a regional impact, yes.

There is a empty station sitting there that could be a nice park and ride.Milwaukee junction.How many suburbs can that serve how many large employment centers can that serve,and fear is the biggest determent to serving the downtown if you remove that fear what would the impact be.

What are they going to see downtown?That's downtown's direction to take,create the demand or fill the demand.

I know it is not very productive to answer questions with more questions,but as far as the funding is concerned it is there if it is a regional aspect,that is another concern also ,should this country go further into debt spending funds it does not have,well to me we will always find funds to add roads but at least with rail it is an option that directly impacts the average users bottom line in their daily life should they choose that option and utilize how it works best for them.

It is really not about giving up your car it is about working on the future generations right to also be able to have the same options as we have and not be controlled by a resource.

[Honky Tonk]

Street cars are not the latest thing they have been around awhile and unless a bus is also run in a designated lane you still get stuck behind them ,use them to shuttle people from the neighborhoods to the line, smaller LNG powered so you can cover more routes at a lower cost.

If the street car is in a designated track it is not adding to congestion or if more rode it there would be less congestion or one could just add more lanes to the road so you can fit more cars but then you might as well use the same funds to relive congestion verses adding to it.

But it is like everything else some are for and some are against it does not make anyone bad,it makes it America.

Unfortunately, I DO remember riding Detroit's streetcars [[well the bus-looking type anyway), @ a very early age. I also remember tracks being pulled out, and/or covered over @ the height of the automobile/expressway craze. Buying up right of way, laying down track, expanding lanes, seems to me like it would not be cost effective to provide a serious metro transportation system solution, in this economy, if that is the eventual game plan. The lite-rail is going to sit stuck in grid-lock on Woodward, like all the cars around it, unless they plan on just plowing through people and traffic. Everyone here keeps talking about Cleveland, but other American cities have effective bus systems too. One of the most effective, I've seen, is in ski towns out West. @ the peak of the season, they deal with massive congestion, pedestrians, and automobile traffic. [[think Red Wing play-offs, daily, 24/7) Their solution? Put the populace on the short bus. More manageable in heavy traffic. Add them and remove them as needed. Never had to wait more then 10 minutes for the next one. During non peak hours, you run one smaller vehicle for what riders there are, instead of a megabus. Very creative and effective, IMO.

[Zacha341]

We need batter public transportation - certainly. Everyone does not or cannot drive. But until we get on top of crime in Detroit I am not subjecting myself to any closed [[captive audience) public conveyance outside of a car. I do car pool with colleagues sometimes so I am not simply a 'selfish', resource-consuming, one-person-alone driver [[smile) ----!

Um, Detroit isn't the better city. Cleveland already has rail transit, BRT, national retailers, street lights, half the murder rate, and a city government that isn't on the verge on insolvency...

[renf]

Dallas, Fort Worth and Austin are Texas cities with heavy rail commuter lines.

[Richard]

I am not opposed to the bus aspect at all and agree that when used in conjunction they work well ,where I am at I use the bus and street car,the bus runs on time and more are added at the peak times,I purchased property 1/2 block from the stop I can leave my house and stand for less then a minute at the stop every time,the street car is for the most part in a designated lane mixed with curbside,it works well and efficient with no delays.It is all well run,and I save about $1200 a month verses when I was relying on my own form of transportation,but that is just my case.

But like I said before I have business and properties and when I tell people that I ride the bus I do get weird looks but when I tell them I ride the street car all of the sudden I am cool again.But some cities public transportation is a way of life and does not raise that eyebrow.

It is not really about just a bus or just a street car more so about a efficient public transportation system end game.But having said that there is a huge difference in the tourist aspect when it comes to street car verses bus,the street cars here are vintage replicas and to me when I ride it there is probably a 40% tourist ridership constantly,that is added revenue not only for the city but also for the transit system.

I have not actually dug up the old street car foundations to run stress tests or see if they could even be utilized as a cost saving measure as there are different track widths but there are fed guidelines when ordering the actual cars each city adds their custom specs to fit their needs,and granted the routes of the 20s may not apply to today's needs.