Detroit is dead.... and will take the State with it....

**Gistok** · December-23-12, 12:03 PM

Poobert and Honky Tonk.... very sad... but true....

**rex** · December-23-12, 12:10 PM

Im full of unpopular opinions from time to time. "What do we do with the rest of the city?" Leave it to its own devices. Little hope for it or the residents therein. Wall off downtown and the few remaining brightspots in hope that in time the walls can be moved outward and redevelopment can take place. For instance, going east from Indian Village there are several streets of mostly empty lots, and a few abandoned, or condemnable homes. Clear em out ??? Create an expanded Indian Village with a nice tall brick wall around it and limit it to 1 or 2 gated entrances.
City needs an expanded tax base. Those who live downtown will have to float basic services for the other 130 sq miles. In order to attract residents with money who are willing to do that you should offer them safety and stability.

**softailrider** · December-23-12, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by PizzaMan

Real estate is cheap and if we could some how get people to buy property again I am sure the city can turn around.

If you need a place to live and you don't have a lot of money, you can get a house in the city for a few thousand dollars, spend a summer making it livable. You could save tens of thousands of dollars on mortgage payments and rent and the like. It could be done, it is being done in some instances.

**Wesley Mouch** · December-23-12, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hamtragedy

If the general disarray at city and county tax / assessment offices is any indication, it will take years to figure out who OWNS what, yet alone who OWES how much.

Case in point, I/we have made several trips to the offices on Randolph to provide proof of ownership/guardianship/transfer/discharge, complete with mailing addresses, on several properties, mostly in an effort to receive the tax bill in a timely manner to the proper mailing address. It's as if the previous trip never happened.

Here's an excerpt of the conversation:

"You're here for what?" "You need to do this." "Already did that." "Well you should have done this." "You told me to do that, so I did it. Twice in fact." "Well we don't have any record of it." That's a shame cuz I've done this twice already, once on x date, again on x date". "Well, we show so and so as having title." "Yes, we're aware of that. We've been here twice previously to change that" "Who are you? Do you have the paperwork?" "Yes, for all three-four-five properties in question" "You said you've done this before?" Yes, twice for these properties, once for this." " We're showing no record of this"

Detroit is going SPLAT. It is a colossally huge mess.

Exactly my experience in dealing the B&SE.

To those who are against State, please go to city hall and experience Detroit control.

Are 80% of the workers at DWSD redundant?

Does the city have 85 people doing payroll for the police department?

Glad we have a Human Rights department. You can have your Human Rights problems fixed for sure.

**mwilbert** · December-23-12, 12:24 PM

I think this is the wrong way to look at the situation. There are still many viable parts of Detroit, and parts that are improving. It seems to me that large parts of Detroit are dead or dying, but the question is whether the rot eventually smothers the living parts, or whether the living parts gradually expand into the emptiness.

I don't think either outcome is foreordained.

**Hamtragedy** · December-23-12, 01:05 PM

Grandmont is being smothered. East English Village is being smothered. Oakwood is being smothered. University District is very close to being smothered, however appears to be clawing its way back. Russell woods is being smothered. Boston Edison is being smothered.

I think the analysis is spot on. Drive down St. Mary's, Chatsworth, Muirland south of McNichols, Longfellow w. of the Lodge, or any other street on the fringe of all these spectacular neighborhoods that are not downtown, and it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Detroit is, and has been, in serious, serious trouble.

Those U-hauls ain't movin in.

**313WX** · December-23-12, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sehv313

I can't even disagree, I live in city limits, the inner city is getting rapidly worse as downtown slowly grows.

That about sums up Detroit there.

**Detroitnerd** · December-23-12, 01:49 PM

Interesting perspectives.

My perspective is a little different. The state of Michigan is going down the tubes. Southeastern Michigan is in especially tough shape, because it's made up of 140-odd different governments all competing for a dwindling share of increasingly older, poorer and less educated residents.

I look at other areas and booming and I notice something: They invest in their central cities. We choose not to. So that's a whole segment of growth we'll never capture. I think that's how a great many people across the country see us: Refusing to make the necessary investments to create a 21st century kind of urban environment, instead wanting to enlarge 20th century growth patterns.

And, to top it off, we excuse all this idiocy by complaining about the city. Instead of other regions, where they invest in the city and it raises all boats, we blame the city and claim it's going to take us all down with it.

Hey, man: Whatever gets you through the night ...

**313WX** · December-23-12, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I agree. For the first time I feel like the City has given up on the City.

Bing and Snyder are doubling down on that feeling too.

I've given up on Michigan anyway. Until I'm able to make a clean escape, whatever happens happens.

**313WX** · December-23-12, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by rex

Im full of unpopular opinions from time to time. "What do we do with the rest of the city?" Leave it to its own devices. Little hope for it or the residents therein. Wall off downtown and the few remaining brightspots in hope that in time the walls can be moved outward and redevelopment can take place. For instance, going east from Indian Village there are several streets of mostly empty lots, and a few abandoned, or condemnable homes. Clear em out ??? Create an expanded Indian Village with a nice tall brick wall around it and limit it to 1 or 2 gated entrances.
City needs an expanded tax base. Those who live downtown will have to float basic services for the other 130 sq miles. In order to attract residents with money who are willing to do that you should offer them safety and stability.

When the city stops collecting my tax dollars every year, then we can discuss "walling off" certain parts of town.

**rex** · December-23-12, 02:00 PM

I blame Joann Watson.
"When the city stops collecting my tax dollars every year, then we can discuss "walling off" certain parts of town."
what I say. Unpopular opinions 'd
if you dont live in one of the "certain parts of town" your home probably isn't worth enough for them to charge much taxes.
ha. No need being surly

**Honky Tonk** · December-23-12, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

When the city stops collecting my tax dollars every year, then we can discuss "walling off" certain parts of town.

Damn straight.

**maverick1** · December-23-12, 02:07 PM

This is arguably Detroit's biggest problem. My friends and I were discussing this last night. The neighborhoods that were stable or semi-stable have declined over the last 30 years. The Michigan recession combined with the real estate crash and residency rule changes was the nail in the coffin for most of Detroit's neighborhoods over the past 10-12 years.

I grew up on the Northwest Side - Old Redford area. As people from that area moved to the suburbs those from the interior of the city moved North. I think this was due to the decline of the area and the Northwest and Northeast sides of Detroit becoming affordable for them by renting or buying. Most of these folks moving weren't professionals. They were working class or poor. Most of the housing stock in Detroit is for the working class. The jobs available to that working class are gone. Detroit has neighborhoods designed for decently paid assembly line workers that don't exist. Most of the people in Detroit can't afford the smallest of single family homes but there are houses upon houses upon houses. I really don't understand why there hasn't been a movement to build more high-rise apartments and multifamily units in neighborhoods. When they closed places like Herman Gardens and Brewster the residents didn't become homeowners.

Neighborhoods like Boston Edison, Grandmont, etc. are islands. They're surrounded by poverty, blight, etc. I don't know how you address this. You can invest in neighborhoods like Boston Edison all you want but as long as it's the sweet center in an all around stale doughnut it will decline. It will just be slower than other parts of the city.

**maverick1** · December-23-12, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Interesting perspectives.

My perspective is a little different. The state of Michigan is going down the tubes. Southeastern Michigan is in especially tough shape, because it's made up of 140-odd different governments all competing for a dwindling share of increasingly older, poorer and less educated residents.

Right!! And people don't see it. I don't think they understand how many of us under 40 have friends from here gone and not looking back. I don't get the why everyone is fine with the redundant government. It's a total waste. We'll have 3-4 cities in 20 square miles and each has it's own police, fire, school board, etc. It's stupid. I predict the next census will really show how far behind SE Michigan is. The worst thing about this are is we have way more resources to start with than other Metro areas that have turned around. But the will of the people here is abysmal.

**maverick1** · December-23-12, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

When the city stops collecting my tax dollars every year, then we can discuss "walling off" certain parts of town.

It's not popular but I'm ok with cutting off certain parts as long as those resident don't have to pay taxes. Not providing services but asking them to pay taxes is not right although that is what is done now. lol

**canuck** · December-23-12, 02:43 PM

Reading them there posts, I feel like a bi-polar affected humid bean. There are countless threads on the subject, and you can easily feel the roller-coaster aspect of living and experiencing Detroit on a daily basis from these posts. There are the half-empty/half-full glass viewpoints from different people, as well as from individual posters.

It's easy to find reasons for Detroit's demise and yet there are countless other urban areas and places like indian reservations in the US and Canada that have equally unpleasant, dangerous, precarious conditions. Beyond getting help from the state and the federal authorities, there are a lot of great people addressing the problems of Detroit, but perhaps not enough of them to make a difference on the face of it.

I am optimistic because there is a move albeit slow but certain toward a regional solution via amalgamation in one shape or another. In Montreal, long before there was a forced merger of the city's former island municipalities, a regional merger of essential EMS fire police and transit was effected throughout the island. Two decades passed before the actual amagamation happened. I understand that many suburban administrations do not want to be icontaminated by what they view as a central city with no bearings, depleted resources, incompetence, graft, etc... Detroit has had a regional transit authority for a long time so it has an essential element in the recipe for regional cohesiveness and coherence.

I think that a lot of people in Detroit who go to work at saving or limiting damage like police and firefighters are heroic. there are bad apples, but there are alot of good folks too, and they are dealing with very harsh realities.

Wishing for a regional management is one thing, but hope wont bring it on. Maybe detroiters need to get over their traditional overreliance on hope whether the southern baptist evangelical kind or the catholic kind; in other words, the cultural markers that define resistance or acceptance to fate. So if hope is not enough to bring about urban renewal in the core city; what is?
Citizen action to demand better use of tax dollars in regional affairs is one way of fighting for better conditions. Maybe part of the problem in Detroit is that the counties are up against each other and the municipal govts end up as pawn in the game of bigger government both state and fedwise. The only way to counter that is by having a metro government with mayors for each municipality, existing cities would become boroughs within Detroit's purview, one mayor for the city administration; and twenty or thirty mayors acting as administrators of their territorial system as opposed to counsellors. This is the way it is done in french cities like Paris and in Montreal. Detroit is a french city, so it only makes sense that it does exactly what I tell it to do. Signed, General The Gall. [[What is the smilie for arrogant smugface?)

**Richard** · December-23-12, 03:10 PM

I guess the thing I noticed the most in the past couple of years is the amount of people starting to care and voice their opinions,if nobody really cared they would just pack and leave and not say anything but you guys are right it all starts downtown admin.

I was looking at a piece of property that was zoned as a renaissance zone,I still find it odd that singular buildings are zoned that way but anyways the zoning had expired a few years earlier and I was inquiring about re-designation again and also instead of applying for tax credits if they could allow the entire surrounding neighborhood as a zone to help the whole area,it would have been the same amount of Monies but would have impacted 10 blocks instead of a single building.

I was told by a supervisor that I should have thought about that two years ago before the designation expired,so I guess if you want to purchase something in the city you need to time travel into the past.You guys hit that right on the money or big reason why there is none.

**Zacha341** · December-23-12, 04:53 PM

Just to instill a bit of levity --

-- I'm always concerned/ curious about what will be going on in those cut off 'parts'. Will these areas become defacto, policed or un-policed dumping zones; or a place where the truly dismal hole up? Like some crazy urban expression ala a Hieronymus Bosch depiction?

Will there be a big fence? Will the scrappers make good with that?

Originally Posted by maverick1

It's not popular but I'm ok with cutting off certain parts as long as those resident don't have to pay taxes. Not providing services but asking them to pay taxes is not right although that is what is done now. lol

**coracle** · December-23-12, 05:58 PM

"It's a total waste. We'll have 3-4 cities in 20 square miles and each has it's own police, fire, school board, etc. It's stupid......"
It may be stupid to you maverick1, but as someone living in one of those 3 - 4 cities I get value for my taxes and there is no way; that's NO WAY, do I want them to be controlled from Detroit; nor do I want a conglomerate of my cities to have any control over Detroit. Where I live works. Why screw with success? Copy it.

**Hamtragedy** · December-23-12, 06:25 PM

And there it is. I got mines. F all the resta' y'all.

**Detroitnerd** · December-23-12, 06:48 PM

METRO DETROIT'S EPITAPH

It may be stupid ... but it works for me, so ...

**DinNC** · December-23-12, 07:11 PM

One question to ask is...how do we connect these parts of Detroit that are doing well. For example, Midtown and Downtown. There's a lot of crap in between the two, so how do we spread it? Is mass transit along Woodward a catalyst? Maybe. Is Ilitch building his $650 million dollar complex the answer? Don't know. From what I've read and heard there are people working on this question.

I

**canuck** · December-23-12, 07:49 PM

I symp-o-thize with you Hamtragedy and Detroitnerd, it's easy to see what you are up against.

Still worth fighting for a city with such an important history. And this history is of course not limited to what happened before 1967. I dont think the attitude should be one of melancholy over what once was but rather one of "How can the city get to where the city was when vast tracts of land were available for development and downtown had a business vitality that would bring people from far and wide to do much more than work and watch a game.

I was pleasantly surprised by the news about the latest purchase of buildings by Gilbert's real estate company. There seems to be more interest in reinvigorating the core by inserting the right kinds of businesses in these bldgs. There doing urban planning on a commercial level that is experimental, and less of a spaceship type development landing on a huge lot. I'm not so keen on the Hudson lot idea, but there is at least the effort at density.

I just am looking for better ideas for the rest of the city, but I still think that to tie the rougher parts of town, the metro amalgamation; the power and money to effect change will be needed. The suburbs should also recognize that the downtowns of the region could compete even if the core city and it's downtown were to thrive on a higher level IMO.

**maverick1** · December-23-12, 08:21 PM

LOL, Detroitnerd and Hamtragedy, you guys get it. I think that should be the motto for the region. "I'm good, f**k everyone else"

serpico · December-23-12, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by DinNC

One question to ask is...how do we connect these parts of Detroit that are doing well. For example, Midtown and Downtown. There's a lot of crap in between the two, so how do we spread it? Is mass transit along Woodward a catalyst? Maybe. Is Ilitch building his $650 million dollar complex the answer? Don't know. From what I've read and heard there are people working on this question.

I

How do you connect Midtown and Downtown? First, Mike Illitch moves into Midtown with his wife, Second Dan Gilbert and his family move Downtown. Third the Ford Family moves in as well.. Detroit lacks leaders that live in the city. All the hype, all the projects and they wont even live where they build. Kinda like Mike Illitch going to Happy's Pizza for carryout or Clay Ford Sr driving a Toyota...