Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[Hermod]

By facts, rail transit has generate 100's of millions in economic development. Period! I will be very "antagonistic" too knowing the possibilities from what it can generate. Nothing but positive outcomes with having it, would you not have it?

Most of the Washington DC metro stops have generated quite a bit of condo and commercial development [[thought the beltway exits seem to do even better).

Here in Florida, Tri-Rail [[aka Trashrail) has not been quite so successful in developments at the various stations.

[dtowncitylover]

With all this BRT, light rail/sreetcar, Commuter rail, and regional authority stuff, doesn't anyone else see hitting the ceiling it terms of a central transportation hub. The itty-bitty, depressing, shoebox that is our Amtrak station will not be enough if our transit options continue to grow. Has this been addressed anywhere? Is there enough land somewhere in downtown/midtown/or the New Center in which to build a larger central transit hub?

[Rocko]

With all this BRT, light rail/sreetcar, Commuter rail, and regional authority stuff, doesn't anyone else see hitting the ceiling it terms of a central transportation hub. The itty-bitty, depressing, shoebox that is our Amtrak station will not be enough if our transit options continue to grow. Has this been addressed anywhere? Is there enough land somewhere in downtown/midtown/or the New Center in which to build a larger central transit hub?

In my prior DYES forum life on the old site as "BusterWMU," a few years ago I threw out a fairly well developed plan to take care of this issue, put MCS back into meaningful transit use, and help to unify our local and large regions using both rail and light rail transit. A key component of my plan was to take care of this very issue which you bring up here:

The city's current Amtrak station is poorly placed and insufficient for even current rail needs, let alone future ones.

I saw a real plan not long ago to build a new Amtrak station to the immediate south of the current one on the west side of Woodward. If you believe the maps published in the papers, it's why the "Amtrak" stop on the M-1 streetcar is south of the railroad overpass, not north where the station currently is. Whereas the current Amtrak station is on the tracks of the Canadian National, this new one would be on the tracks of the Conrail Shared Assets. Trains currently cross from the Conrail line over to the CN at CP-Vinewood, north of West Detroit Jct. Ironically, if this plan came to fruition, trains would have to cross over from the CN to the Conrail somewhere in the same area, if the West Detroit Connection at West Detroit is actually built. But I digress, other than pointing out that this line and area in general are poorly suited to be the city's only stop for true intercity rail. Commuter trains? OK. Intercity? Nope.

When I was working on my plan back in 2007 or 2008, work on Cobo was being discussed but nothing had yet been done. You may be familiar with the one-time location and rail alignment to get to the old Fort Street Union Depot, which sat at the corner of Fort & Third across from Fort St. Presbyterian Church on the current site of WCCCD. My proposal was to have a downtown Detroit commuter rail station located at the corner of Washington and Congress, within the north side of Cobo Center, with the tracks running parallel to Congress. This would be more central to downtown than any prior station in the last 100 years, end at a rebuilt convention showplace, and have a direct tie-in to the People Mover System. Of course now in 2013, Cobo renovation plans have moved along and that puts the kabosh on what I had suggested, but that was my idea. Tracks would come north from downriver/Metro Airport as they currently do through Delray, along the River, then follow the general old Fort Street Depot viaduct alignment behind the post office, through the site of the [[demolished) Joe Louis garage, and over the Lodge to Congress and Washington. Likewise, tracks from the west [[Ann Arbor) would pass behind MCS, and follow the still-extant old freight alignment through the trough beneath Bagley, Lafayette and Fort, curve behind the Salvation Army warehouse, and join the downriver tracks. Trains from the Plymouth area would be able to join this alignment at CP-Lou in east Dearborn.

That was my plan. I hope it makes a little sense at this late hour. Unfortunately, the opportunity has been lost as the Cobo rehab is now more than 50% complete. As for another route to or near downtown, or another location for a future station, there is very little to choose from without some serious new right-of-way acquisition.

No matter which way you look at it, the current Amtrak depot site is insufficient and in my personal opinion moving the depot to a new site just south of the current location does zero to fix the current problems. It'll still be 2.5 miles outside of the downtown core with a slow bus ride or faster but with insufficient capacity light-rail trip down M-1, which will hinder any future potential for growth and be a waste of untold millions of $$$.

[dtowncitylover]

Thank you Rocko for that detailed post!

What will need to happen is build a new transit hub that may cost millions and millions of dollars. The construction of new tracks and platforms to accommodate multiple train arrivals and departures each day and so it doesn't get in the way of cargo trains. It doesn't bother me that a future transit hub could be placed outside of downtown. Ogilvie station in Chicago is west of the river and the loop and Union Station in DC is well north of all the federal buildings.

If it were up to me it seems like the blocks bounded by the Blvd, Woodward, Cass, and the rail tracks could be totally redeveloped to build a central station with the front overlooking the Blvd. [[imagining the Suburban Station in Philly). But that's me thinking really quickly about this w/o much research.

I thought I saw something being built at Woodward and Amsterdam [[south of the tracks) last week?

[Rocko]

I wasn't saying that a new transit hub shouldn't cost millions and millions of dollars. If we're going to get serious and do it right - and plan for future growth and expansion - we are going to have to pony up and spend some big $$.

The problem with the current site, or the one immediately to the south, is that the tracks are elevated, and there's not much room for expansion without some major changes to several blocks and adding lots and lots of fill. The current tracks are both through routes for two important freight rail companies, and they won't want to tie them up with passenger trains which may sit for a while.

It's true, many big city train stations aren't in the very center of the downtown core. But in Detroit's case, having it way out near New Center puts it far away from the largest concentration of jobs and residences. Now, if we scrapped M1 and built a subway under Woodward, one where you could get downtown in 8-10 minutes, then it might be do-able.

My plan for using the routes I mentioned and putting the commuter station downtown at Cobo was based primarily on three points:
1-proximety to the center of downtown [[and connection to DPM)
2-reuse of several still-extant railroad right-of-ways.
3-It would be a direct extension of Detroit's primary intercity rail route, which will one day be Chicago-Detroit-Toronto.

Placing a major intercity hub on Woodward in New Center would allow the same endpoints to be served, but by current routings the trains would have to either a) switch direction or backup for several miles to get back toward the Detroit River Tunnel, or b) cross the border in Sarnia by way of Mt. Clemens and Pt. Huron. Feasible, yes, but Windsor won't want to be left out, nor should they be. Now you could also have a major commuter train station at Woodward in New Center, and re-utilize MCS for intercity trains [[as I had fleshed out in my plan, thought I didn't really mention it), but that sort of destroys the overall idea of multi-modal connectivity.

The Woodward site is not a bad place for a railroad station, as it is located on two through-routes which connect to pretty much every route which comes toward the Detroit metro area, I just don't think it's the best place for THE ONLY train station in Detroit.

Just my thoughts. I should really take a few minutes and update my plan to reflect 4+ years of changes and repost it here, [[in a new thread), if others are interested to read it.

[Tig3rzhark]

When I saw the concept for M1, it seems that those people forgot that cars and buses park on the curb. No matter how many private or public parking lots are created, someone would rather park on the curb.

Also, bicycles ride on Woodward too. If you put the light rail curbside, bikes couldn't ride on Woodward anymore. Not that many folks care.

I hope that it doesn't take too long to extend to at least 8 mile. So if the suburbs get cold feet, Detroiters would still be able to get to the Fairgrounds faster than ever, and catch the SMART buses from there.

As a Detroiter who catches the Woodward, that bus is always crowded. So having light rail that goes only to transfer points in DDOT and SMART routes, would be a godsend.

Now, could someone please explain to me how is M1 going to get from Grand Circus Park to Jefferson Ave, riding along with car traffic, running curbside at that? There's barely enough room for that streetcar to go along that corridor.

There's going to have to be a lot of street changes made downtown. Thus taking it a lot longer for this train to ever be built.

I just hope that the regional transit authority has a lot of intelligent people on that board. We've been through enough failure already. If M1 doesn't work the way it's suppose to, best believe, there will be little light rail to speak of, here in Detroit.

[TexasT]

Now, could someone please explain to me how is M1 going to get from Grand Circus Park to Jefferson Ave, riding along with car traffic, running curbside at that? There's barely enough room for that streetcar to go along that corridor.

We had this problem in Houston. When you get to the center of downtown, the train runs on the street along with the cars. I couldn't find a good picture but you can see how a car would be able to ride in front of or behind the train from this pic:


It's only for a few blocks and since the train is only once every 10 mins or so [[and because the lights are timed with the trains), it's not that big of a problem as far as trains getting through traffic. That being said, we had some issues with car/train accidents before everyone got used to them being there.

But that's one way to fit a train on a two-lane urban street.

[Dexlin]

I think this really shows just how clueless some folks are, as if a curbside streetcar has never operated in any city ever. I'd have prefered a full on light rail, but the ignorance around how a streetcar works shows just how far short a city's memory can be and how incredibly provencial Detroiters can be.

Woodward is a huge-ass street, probably one of the widest main streets in the country, and people are really concerned about it being able to include multiple modes of transportation? Really? Detroit can have nice things, but hell if you don't know sh%t about 'em in the beginning. People need to get out, more, to say the very least.

[Hermod]

I think this really shows just how clueless some folks are, as if a curbside streetcar has never operated in any city ever. I'd have prefered a full on light rail, but the ignorance around how a streetcar works shows just how far short a city's memory can be and how incredibly provencial Detroiters can be.

Woodward is a huge-ass street, probably one of the widest main streets in the country, and people are really concerned about it being able to include multiple modes of transportation? Really? Detroit can have nice things, but hell if you don't know sh%t about 'em in the beginning. People need to get out, more, to say the very least.

Woodward Avenue with streetcar tracks on the side.

Attachment 17999

[brizee]

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/12/detr-d31.html

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/06/...day-on-wheels/

I shit on Bing alot, but I'm not a partisan and I give credit where it's due. Right now this looks like a pretty solid pick.

Detroit - Lisa Franklin
Washtenaw - Elisabeth Gerber, Richard Murphy
Macomb - N/A, N/A
Oakland - N/A, N/A
Wayne- N/A, N/A
Governor - Paul Hillegonds

Any speculation is encouraged.

[brizee]

No news but a few questions/speculation about the inaugural RTA board.

Washtenaw - 2 known.
Governor - 1 Known.
Wayne - 2 Unknown.
Macomb - 2 Unknown.
Oakland - 2 Unknown
Detroit - 1 Unknown.

I'm gonna guess one of these spots is gonna be filled by a local professor, probably Detroit Mercy, since individuals associated from that school have been mentioned more than once in association with transit.

Again just speculation, also have no idea where these people live.

Leo Hanifan Dean of Engineering UDM - Only "met" him a few times, don't know him that well, he seems to advocate for transportation in this region.

Alan Hoback Chair of Civil/Environmental/Arch UDM - I'm %99 certain he is/was involved in M-1 in some capacity.

Uptal Dutta Transportation Professor UDM - Seemed to be on top of his game regarding transportation, and another guy I'm sure was involved in M1 planning. Was a pretty jovial guy. Pretty sure he lives in Oakland county somewhere.

Mike Duggan DMC exec- It's a long shot but I could Ficano putting him in as the required Detroit residing one year term board member.

William Jones CEO Focus Hope - Serves on a bunch of boards and nonprofits already. From my own interactions he seemed tough but fair, used to dealing with an entity in crisis mode damn near constantly. Seemed funny. Even when instituting painful bitter cost saving measures, I still liked the guy.

Source of these consideration is my ass and my ass alone.

I've given my guesses, let's hear yours.

[stasu1213]

Why does construction has to start late in the summer. It should start earlier this spring. Statements like "late in the summer" get me nervous for the project could be stalled for another couple of years

[brizee]

After a day like today and as many busses as I saw slipping and sliding on Woodward...

It would be appreciated if these superbus backers would stop trying to sell their snake oil as being just as good as rail. Argue it's the cheaper, easier halfass solution and stop blowing smoke.

[Hypestyles]

has a permanent HQ been chosen for the committee? If so, where? I'd like to know where the public meetings will be.

[brizee]

I believe that setting up a website and meeting schedules is one of the first things the board has to do at the end of March.

Also for all I know Macomb and Oakland COULD have announced their appointments. It's actually pretty difficult pulling up recent info about the RTA. Incredibly difficult considering how huge and transformative it could be to this place.

[casscorridor]

The RTA is taking a long time to gather. Something needs to be said about transportation in Detroit. State Treasurer Andy Dillon has publicly stated that Detroit, under emergency management, will target buses and lighting as major areas for cuts. The affects will be devastating. Imagine having wait long in pitch black for a bus that may or may not come. There is really no excuse. Detroit needs improved transportation immediately.

[brizee]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...nsit-Authority

Detroit - Lisa Franklin
Washtenaw - Elisabeth Gerber, Richard Murphy
Macomb - Julie Gatti, Roy Rose
Oakland - Steven M. Potter, Matthew M. Wirgau
Wayne- Mark Gaffney , Curtis Ivery [[required Detroit resident)
Governor - Paul Hillegonds

Two educators, two lawyers, a transit enthusiast, a disability advocate, a former union boss, a former bus boss, CEO of an engineering company.

And a nonvoting executive at DTE.

Washtenaw is the only one that skews even a little young.

Congrats and good luck. And I sincerely design this for people that will actually be here in 10-20 years, and not those who'd like to see the status quo remain the same.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Until and unless the RTA secures funding beyond its initial allocation of $250,000 from the Comprehensive Transportation Fund, it's almost certainly dead in the water.

Expect a $1.20 per $1,000 vehicle registration fee to go on the November 2014 ballot, since such things have to go on a ballot featuring either a Presidential or Gubernatorial contest.

[Flintoid]

Until and unless the RTA secures funding beyond its initial allocation of $250,000 from the Comprehensive Transportation Fund, it's almost certainly dead in the water.

Well than it sure is good that they got $6.5 Million from the Feds.

"A planned regional network of rapid buses will receive an initial $6.5 million in funds"

"LaHood also said $6.5 million in federal transportation funds would go towards doing the research and engineering necessary for developing a regional transportation authority. He added that if a referendum was passed to move that effort forward, more federal money would likely follow to establish a BRT network in Southeast Michigan."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/m1-rail-ray-lahood-detroit-25-million-woodward_n_2502335.html

The RTA has total now $6.75 million for costs up to the November 2014 ballot initiative. I don't think the plan was ever to survive on the 250k, and thankfully we don't have to. That should be plenty to come up with a regional transportation plan and marketing strategy for the ballot initiative.

[stasu1213]

Well than it sure is good that they got $6.5 Million from the Feds.

"A planned regional network of rapid buses will receive an initial $6.5 million in funds"

"LaHood also said $6.5 million in federal transportation funds would go towards doing the research and engineering necessary for developing a regional transportation authority. He added that if a referendum was passed to move that effort forward, more federal money would likely follow to establish a BRT network in Southeast Michigan."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/m1-rail-ray-lahood-detroit-25-million-woodward_n_2502335.html

The RTA has total now $6.75 million for costs up to the November 2014 ballot initiative. I don't think the plan was ever to survive on the 250k, and thankfully we don't have to. That should be plenty to come up with a regional transportation plan and marketing strategy for the ballot initiative.

I want to see groundbreaking this spring. I don't want to wait until November 2014 for a vote. Detroit is a fucking laughing stock when it comes to developing any form of mass transit. Gilbert, Karmonos, Penske, and Illitch is finding that out now with the red tape that they had to go through to get 3 lousy miles of rail up the American Road, Woodward. This ball had been kicked on this site for 10 years or so. Detroit, the car town, does not really want any form of mass transit besides the overpriced, insured cars that masses on the freeways during rush hour. go figure

[Flintoid]

I want to see groundbreaking this spring. I don't want to wait until November 2014 for a vote. Detroit is a fucking laughing stock when it comes to developing any form of mass transit. Gilbert, Karmonos, Penske, and Illitch is finding that out now with the red tape that they had to go through to get 3 lousy miles of rail up the American Road, Woodward. This ball had been kicked on this site for 10 years or so. Detroit, the car town, does not really want any form of mass transit besides the overpriced, insured cars that masses on the freeways during rush hour. go figure

Yes, let's break ground before we have the money to build anything. I'd hate to see your finances. Now can we have a real discussion about the RTA, not the illogical whining going on here.

[wolverine]

Yes, let's break ground before we have the money to build anything. I'd hate to see your finances. Now can we have a real discussion about the RTA, not the illogical whining going on here.

Maybe because some regional and local transit agencies are handed hundreds of millions of dollars like it's spare change. The current cost to fully gut rehab and modernize a typical urban subway station is about the same cost of Detroit's streetcar system in entirety...and I've only heard the possibility of a Woodward line maybe 10 years ago? When is the money going to appear on the table. Nobody is whining, but maybe a little impatient. I share stasu1213's thoughts. This is ridiculous. The cost of the system is irrelevant when you consider the hundreds of millions wasted on unsuccessful road upgrades, abandoned subdivisions or scattered development.

[stasu1213]

Yes, let's break ground before we have the money to build anything. I'd hate to see your finances. Now can we have a real discussion about the RTA, not the illogical whining going on here.

Lol. The reason why I criticize the city's handling of the never came possibly never to come light rail is for my finances are good. The money put into building an elevated People Mover could had been used to simply lay down tracks in the middle of Woodward and have a trolly or car to run to 8 mile road. Flintoid, would you prefer to wait on excuse after excuse while Woodward Avenue deteriorate into pothole alley? It is a shame that TRU and other supporters of lightrail had spent millions of dollars over the years in research after research only to have Snyder and Bing to pull out the RTA idea at the last minute. Don't waste these group's time and don't waste the resdents of Detroit and other cities time if there are no intentions in running a train up Woodward. Pave the damn road for petesake. I had been saying for years on this site that lightrail was not going to happen for Detroit [[Motor City) has a habit of throwing a monkey wrench in any plans that would give commuters an alternative way to travel. Some had said that a train that will run along Woodward from Jefferson to 8 mile road is a waste of time. Try walking that distant. Go to New York and walk eight miles from lower Manhattan to midtown or Time Square. You will see how much retail and other businesses are within the 8 mile radius; especially traveling along 5th or 7th ave. I guess that my finances are too good for me to be a planner or an elected official in this city. Dave Bing, Charles Pugh, Kevyn Orr and others were reported to having financial problems, whether personal or business, when they were selected for office

[DetroitPlanner]

Well than it sure is good that they got $6.5 Million from the Feds.

"A planned regional network of rapid buses will receive an initial $6.5 million in funds"

"LaHood also said $6.5 million in federal transportation funds would go towards doing the research and engineering necessary for developing a regional transportation authority. He added that if a referendum was passed to move that effort forward, more federal money would likely follow to establish a BRT network in Southeast Michigan."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/m1-rail-ray-lahood-detroit-25-million-woodward_n_2502335.html

The RTA has total now $6.75 million for costs up to the November 2014 ballot initiative. I don't think the plan was ever to survive on the 250k, and thankfully we don't have to. That should be plenty to come up with a regional transportation plan and marketing strategy for the ballot initiative.

$250k will not match all $6.5 million. $250k only matches $1 million of the 6.5. While that is a good start it won't get them everything. To put it in perspective, the Woodward alternatives analysis from the River to Pontiac is $2 million. A full size bus starts around $350k.

[cramerro]

$250k will not match all $6.5 million. $250k only matches $1 million of the 6.5. While that is a good start it won't get them everything. To put it in perspective, the Woodward alternatives analysis from the River to Pontiac is $2 million. A full size bus starts around $350k.

$6.5 Million is Federal funding... the state has a history of providing 20% match for Federal funds.

THe $250k was never billed as matching funds... it is an apportionment of State funds to aid in start-up costs of the RTA.

The $6.5 is for planning and studies... cannot be used for capital that is a different funding source. Would allow for 2-3 other corridors to be studied [[based on Woodward study budget). Without these funds the RTA would have to raise money just to study the possibility of building a BRT/LRT system. Once plans and studies are done RTA can apply for New/Small Starts Federal funding for a/the corridor[[s), which will provide Federal assistance toward any BRT system the RTA would build.