Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[TexasT]

My point is that the main tourist/hotel area is Michigan Ave. and east to the lakefront, and those areas aren't served by rail.

The main shopping/hotel/tourist center in Chicago was the Loop 100 years ago, but migrated to North Michigan Ave. in the postwar era, after the train lines had already been built. So most visitors don't ever use transit, which is very different than the situation in places like NYC, DC and the like.

The Red Line is 3 blocks over from Michigan Ave. I just think that it's easier to take a cab in Chicago than NYC or DC, which are more gridlocked, so people use them more.

[Eber Brock Ward]

chicagoforlife, the Chicago regional transit system is a ticking time bomb.

Until this year, the system, through its RTA, was using capital funds to supplement operating funds.

There is so much deferred maintenance that it's laughable. For example, even with the new 5000 series cars coming online, something like 40+% of cars on the el system are beyond useful life.

Given that Illinois is a ticking time bomb, too, the system [[cta, metra, pace) is in trouble, because there likely isn't a rescue coming. They pulled a Kwame and just borrowed and ignored capital costs and put the region in a bind.

[chicagoforlife]

My point is that the main tourist/hotel area is Michigan Ave. and east to the lakefront, and those areas aren't served by rail.

The main shopping/hotel/tourist center in Chicago was the Loop 100 years ago, but migrated to North Michigan Ave. in the postwar era, after the train lines had already been built. So most visitors don't ever use transit, which is very different than the situation in places like NYC, DC and the like.

Michigan Avenue is only a block east of State Street which has the red line running under it. It is a little bit of a walk from State east to the lake but most of the hotels and tourist things are along State or Michigan mainly.

[chicagoforlife]

They make improvements to the L all the time. They will be closing the red line down from Cermak to 95th in May for five months to completely rebuild the line. They have made improvements on the brown and purple lines as well and opened a few new stations.

[Eber Brock Ward]

They make improvements to the L all the time. They will be closing the red line down from Cermak to 95th in May for five months to completely rebuild the line. They have made improvements on the brown and purple lines as well and opened a few new stations.

read the RTA's asset condition assessment, among other things. total ticking time bomb.

it's the same issue that others discussed in the other thread with respect to older vs newer infrastructure.

[chicagoforlife]

That is why they are making the improvements that they are making. The L opened in 1892 to compliment the World's Fair at Jackson Park and has been running ever since. A system this old is going to have a lot of old infrastructure but they are replacing a lot of the old infrastructure, eliminating the slow zones in the system is a major key.

[TexasT]

That is why they are making the improvements that they are making. The L opened in 1892 to compliment the World's Fair at Jackson Park and has been running ever since. A system this old is going to have a lot of old infrastructure but they are replacing a lot of the old infrastructure, eliminating the slow zones in the system is a major key.

I'm not sure you can really say the L as it exists opened in 1892. It was a hodgepodge of private systems that kept going bankrupt until it was made a public system in the 40s.

I think his point is that while they are paying some attention to a a less-utilized span on one line on the South Side, it's too little, too late. Using capital funds to cover operating costs for so long is a really bad sign.

[chicagoforlife]

I'm not sure you can really say the L as it exists opened in 1892. It was a hodgepodge of private systems that kept going bankrupt until it was made a public system in the 40s.

I think his point is that while they are paying some attention to a a less-utilized span on one line on the South Side, it's too little, too late. Using capital funds to cover operating costs for so long is a really bad sign.

No not the way it exists today it is much more than what it was in 1892. The oldest parts of the L are on the Southside Elevated which the green line uses. I believe the Lake Street elevated opened a year later which is also used by the green line.

But you are correct they were a private system until the CTA was founded in 1947. At that point the State Street subway was already in use and the Milwaukee-Dearborn subway opened in 1951 so that was around the time that the L took off.

As far as the Southside it is underserved, you only have the red line, green line and orange line serving the entire Southside where on the Northside you have the red line, brown line, purple line, blue line and so on.

[DetroitPlanner]

Here is a history of Chicago's rail transit:
http://planning.org/tuesdaysatapa/2009/pdf/may.pdf

Now please get back to the discussion at hand, the Detroit RTA.

[Flintoid]

Until and unless the RTA secures funding beyond its initial allocation of $250,000 from the Comprehensive Transportation Fund, it's almost certainly dead in the water.

Well than it sure is good that they got $6.5 Million from the Feds.

"A planned regional network of rapid buses will receive an initial $6.5 million in funds"

"LaHood also said $6.5 million in federal transportation funds would go towards doing the research and engineering necessary for developing a regional transportation authority. He added that if a referendum was passed to move that effort forward, more federal money would likely follow to establish a BRT network in Southeast Michigan."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/m1-rail-ray-lahood-detroit-25-million-woodward_n_2502335.html

The RTA has total now $6.75 million for costs up to the November 2014 ballot initiative. I don't think the plan was ever to survive on the 250k, and thankfully we don't have to. That should be plenty to come up with a regional transportation plan and marketing strategy for the ballot initiative.

[stasu1213]

Well than it sure is good that they got $6.5 Million from the Feds.

"A planned regional network of rapid buses will receive an initial $6.5 million in funds"

"LaHood also said $6.5 million in federal transportation funds would go towards doing the research and engineering necessary for developing a regional transportation authority. He added that if a referendum was passed to move that effort forward, more federal money would likely follow to establish a BRT network in Southeast Michigan."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/m1-rail-ray-lahood-detroit-25-million-woodward_n_2502335.html

The RTA has total now $6.75 million for costs up to the November 2014 ballot initiative. I don't think the plan was ever to survive on the 250k, and thankfully we don't have to. That should be plenty to come up with a regional transportation plan and marketing strategy for the ballot initiative.

I want to see groundbreaking this spring. I don't want to wait until November 2014 for a vote. Detroit is a fucking laughing stock when it comes to developing any form of mass transit. Gilbert, Karmonos, Penske, and Illitch is finding that out now with the red tape that they had to go through to get 3 lousy miles of rail up the American Road, Woodward. This ball had been kicked on this site for 10 years or so. Detroit, the car town, does not really want any form of mass transit besides the overpriced, insured cars that masses on the freeways during rush hour. go figure

[brizee]

This whole Godforsaken area has been in a cave for 50 years.

Public transportation has been neutered for so long noone knows what an actual city looks like. Only a fuzzy shadow.

Anyone that leaves the cave and tells the populace what an actual city operates like is burned at the stake.

Or spout some "chew-chew" gibberish.

Or keep begging the question.

Or stating how everything else has to be perfect before improving transit.

As if police response has to be less than a minute before repaving the streets.

Or schools need a %95 college retention rate before the streetlights get turned on.

[Flintoid]

I want to see groundbreaking this spring. I don't want to wait until November 2014 for a vote. Detroit is a fucking laughing stock when it comes to developing any form of mass transit. Gilbert, Karmonos, Penske, and Illitch is finding that out now with the red tape that they had to go through to get 3 lousy miles of rail up the American Road, Woodward. This ball had been kicked on this site for 10 years or so. Detroit, the car town, does not really want any form of mass transit besides the overpriced, insured cars that masses on the freeways during rush hour. go figure

Yes, let's break ground before we have the money to build anything. I'd hate to see your finances. Now can we have a real discussion about the RTA, not the illogical whining going on here.

[wolverine]

While its encouraging to see them out and voicing their support, it is only a couple dozen kids. They would be cancelled out just by the apathetic young people on my inner ring suburban street. I just wish more of our younger folk would speak up and get involved.

Incidentally, I'm one of those who "will be dead or in an old folks home in 15 years" and I support mass transit and throttling back on spawl - some of us do get it.

Young kids do speak pretty loudly. They get up and leave if they don't get what they want. Never has a generation been so mobile when it comes to job opportunities. Notice the stronger economic growth happening in urban centers. And many cities realize the importance of what it takes to keep young professionals happy. Regardless of what anyone thinks on an anti-mass transportation agenda and its high costs will have to accept that the accelerated development of mass transit infrastructure is an inalienable truth of modern America no matter how many people oppose it or who's in power.

[wolverine]

Yes, let's break ground before we have the money to build anything. I'd hate to see your finances. Now can we have a real discussion about the RTA, not the illogical whining going on here.

Maybe because some regional and local transit agencies are handed hundreds of millions of dollars like it's spare change. The current cost to fully gut rehab and modernize a typical urban subway station is about the same cost of Detroit's streetcar system in entirety...and I've only heard the possibility of a Woodward line maybe 10 years ago? When is the money going to appear on the table. Nobody is whining, but maybe a little impatient. I share stasu1213's thoughts. This is ridiculous. The cost of the system is irrelevant when you consider the hundreds of millions wasted on unsuccessful road upgrades, abandoned subdivisions or scattered development.

[canuck]

Young kids do speak pretty loudly. They get up and leave if they don't get what they want. Never has a generation been so mobile when it comes to job opportunities. Notice the stronger economic growth happening in urban centers. And many cities realize the importance of what it takes to keep young professionals happy. Regardless of what anyone thinks on an anti-mass transportation agenda and its high costs will have to accept that the accelerated development of mass transit infrastructure is an inalienable truth of modern America no matter how many people oppose it or who's in power.

Does anyone here think like me that Detroit has a certain edge if it so chooses to use it, if you factor in the advantage of implementing new transit solutions?

1-Take the wealth of the region with a very respectable GDP,

2-Raise the possibility of a metropolitan government that acknowledges the importance of centering HQ activity in downtown whenever possible

3-Curb corollary development and promote high density in the core city.

Other cities have been there done that even with fewer problems than Detroit, if only to refine their potential, never mind stopping further decline via obvious symptoms.

On transit for instance, the metropolitan municipalities surrounding the island of Montreal are very vocal at getting a piece of the pie. there is continued pressure put on the provincial government to build new metro and LRT or suburban rail lines connected to the core city.

[stasu1213]

Yes, let's break ground before we have the money to build anything. I'd hate to see your finances. Now can we have a real discussion about the RTA, not the illogical whining going on here.

Lol. The reason why I criticize the city's handling of the never came possibly never to come light rail is for my finances are good. The money put into building an elevated People Mover could had been used to simply lay down tracks in the middle of Woodward and have a trolly or car to run to 8 mile road. Flintoid, would you prefer to wait on excuse after excuse while Woodward Avenue deteriorate into pothole alley? It is a shame that TRU and other supporters of lightrail had spent millions of dollars over the years in research after research only to have Snyder and Bing to pull out the RTA idea at the last minute. Don't waste these group's time and don't waste the resdents of Detroit and other cities time if there are no intentions in running a train up Woodward. Pave the damn road for petesake. I had been saying for years on this site that lightrail was not going to happen for Detroit [[Motor City) has a habit of throwing a monkey wrench in any plans that would give commuters an alternative way to travel. Some had said that a train that will run along Woodward from Jefferson to 8 mile road is a waste of time. Try walking that distant. Go to New York and walk eight miles from lower Manhattan to midtown or Time Square. You will see how much retail and other businesses are within the 8 mile radius; especially traveling along 5th or 7th ave. I guess that my finances are too good for me to be a planner or an elected official in this city. Dave Bing, Charles Pugh, Kevyn Orr and others were reported to having financial problems, whether personal or business, when they were selected for office

[DetroitPlanner]

Well than it sure is good that they got $6.5 Million from the Feds.

"A planned regional network of rapid buses will receive an initial $6.5 million in funds"

"LaHood also said $6.5 million in federal transportation funds would go towards doing the research and engineering necessary for developing a regional transportation authority. He added that if a referendum was passed to move that effort forward, more federal money would likely follow to establish a BRT network in Southeast Michigan."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/m1-rail-ray-lahood-detroit-25-million-woodward_n_2502335.html

The RTA has total now $6.75 million for costs up to the November 2014 ballot initiative. I don't think the plan was ever to survive on the 250k, and thankfully we don't have to. That should be plenty to come up with a regional transportation plan and marketing strategy for the ballot initiative.

$250k will not match all $6.5 million. $250k only matches $1 million of the 6.5. While that is a good start it won't get them everything. To put it in perspective, the Woodward alternatives analysis from the River to Pontiac is $2 million. A full size bus starts around $350k.

[DetroitPlanner]

Lol. The reason why I criticize the city's handling of the never came possibly never to come light rail is for my finances are good. The money put into building an elevated People Mover could had been used to simply lay down tracks in the middle of Woodward and have a trolly or car to run to 8 mile road.

SEMTA [[SMART) built the People Mover and was responsible for the huge over-runs. The City came in when it was 90 percent built and out of money. Put the blame where it belongs.

[cramerro]

$250k will not match all $6.5 million. $250k only matches $1 million of the 6.5. While that is a good start it won't get them everything. To put it in perspective, the Woodward alternatives analysis from the River to Pontiac is $2 million. A full size bus starts around $350k.

$6.5 Million is Federal funding... the state has a history of providing 20% match for Federal funds.

THe $250k was never billed as matching funds... it is an apportionment of State funds to aid in start-up costs of the RTA.

The $6.5 is for planning and studies... cannot be used for capital that is a different funding source. Would allow for 2-3 other corridors to be studied [[based on Woodward study budget). Without these funds the RTA would have to raise money just to study the possibility of building a BRT/LRT system. Once plans and studies are done RTA can apply for New/Small Starts Federal funding for a/the corridor[[s), which will provide Federal assistance toward any BRT system the RTA would build.

[brizee]

"The community" asked for more busses. Color me fucking surprised.

And why exactly will take approximately four years to get yet another bus system up and running?

Let's say it doesn't get voter funded until Nov 14, that's still two years to get busses up and running between the city and suburbs...even though you could get DDOT/SMART to make coordinate express service on those routes today.

And "fast busses"? I see the jedi mindmeld bull has already started.

Cheap, halfassed and won't actually improve anything. I don't know why I ever had optimism for anything in this shitty town.

[bailey]

Cheap, halfassed and won't actually improve anything. I don't know why I ever had optimism for anything in this shitty town.

Because you haven't lived here long enough?

[DetroitPlanner]

A pessimist is never disappointed.
~ Jack Cleary

"BRT offers a variety of bus service designs that provide faster, more efficient, and more reliable service than local bus lines. BRT could also include a number of features and services, such as dedicated bus lanes, new enhanced stations and traffic signal upgrades. This planning study includes analyzing the positive and negative impacts of these BRT options. The study area extends approximately 21 miles along Western and Ashland Avenues, from Howard Street on the north to 95th Street on the south."
http://www.transitchicago.com/westernashlandbrt/

[stasu1213]

"The community" asked for more busses. Color me fucking surprised.

And why exactly will take approximately four years to get yet another bus system up and running?

Let's say it doesn't get voter funded until Nov 14, that's still two years to get busses up and running between the city and suburbs...even though you could get DDOT/SMART to make coordinate express service on those routes today.

And "fast busses"? I see the jedi mindmeld bull has already started.

Cheap, halfassed and won't actually improve anything. I don't know why I ever had optimism for anything in this shitty town.

You will never make it to office of mayor or council for you use too much common sense. DDOT/SMART could have combined busses running along Woodward tomorrow if the companies wished. Those corporations who run this town don't want it to happen. They control these politicians who are in office. Even to have them to fight among each other stalling the project even longer. Go into the archives of Discuss Detroit and you would see hopeful bloggers on this site happy that the project was going to get started in 2007 or 2009. NOT!!!!

[stasu1213]

A pessimist is never disappointed.
~ Jack Cleary

"BRT offers a variety of bus service designs that provide faster, more efficient, and more reliable service than local bus lines. BRT could also include a number of features and services, such as dedicated bus lanes, new enhanced stations and traffic signal upgrades. This planning study includes analyzing the positive and negative impacts of these BRT options. The study area extends approximately 21 miles along Western and Ashland Avenues, from Howard Street on the north to 95th Street on the south."
http://www.transitchicago.com/westernashlandbrt/

Hell; Chicago is going to have it's up and running before Detroit even decide whether to have curbside or middle of the street