Ilitch Proposes Stadium and Events Center

[southen]

I like the DIA , I really do. But to say that it is no less important that public schools is ridiculous.

as someone in an art field ill say that early on in my life the DIA and the masters they have on display was a source of inspiration and helped push me into a creative field. just because art doesnt inspire you like it does others doesnt mean it isnt as important as schools or libraries. the DIA puts on educational programming for a reason...

[JVB]

as someone in an art field ill say that early on in my life the DIA and the masters they have on display was a source of inspiration and helped push me into a creative field. just because art doesnt inspire you like it does others doesnt mean it isnt as important as schools or libraries. the DIA puts on educational programming for a reason...

I don't mean to disparage art, as I said I really enjoy the DIA. But you're not going to learn how to read, write and do math there either. To compare the two is silly.

[southen]

I don't mean to disparage art, as I said I really enjoy the DIA. But you're not going to learn how to read, write and do math there either. To compare the two is silly.

to think that education only comes from reading, writing or math is silly.

[JVB]

to think that education only comes from reading, writing or math is silly.

Except you can't function as an adult without those skills, but you can do just fine not knowing the difference between abstract expressionism and cubism. Anybody that thinks art is as important as writing or math isn't thinking things through.

[Novine]

"Is this funding going to be tax-increment financing, a tax on car rentals & hotel rooms, some combination?"

Based on what's been stated, Ilitch wants to be able to divert the TIF funds collected by the DDA to pay for bonds issued for his project. These bonds will likely be used to pay for "public improvements" which means things like demolishing buildings, rerouting streets, etc. In the suburbs, a private developer would have to bear these costs as part of developing a site. But this being Detroit, these tax dollars that are being captured are allowed to benefit private individuals instead of being available to the city to provide services for residents and businesses throughout the city.

[downtownguy]

No I understand... I wasn't trying to dispute you... but you reminded me with the One Detroit Center scenario...that no buildings downtown [[of any type) have been built in recent decades without some kind of public handout...

Roger, dodger, Mr. G.

[southen]

Except you can't function as an adult without those skills, but you can do just fine not knowing the difference between abstract expressionism and cubism. Anybody that thinks art is as important as writing or math isn't thinking things through.

if you think art education and the impact of art is simply knowing the difference between two styles of painting then there is no point in continuing this conversation. you have a rudimentary view on learning and education.

[JVB]

if you think art education and the impact of art is simply knowing the difference between two styles of painting then there is no point in continuing this conversation. you have a rudimentary view on learning and education.

Are you saying that art is as important as reading, writing and math? Are you seriously saying that?

[southen]

Are you saying that art is as important as reading, writing and math? Are you seriously saying that?

art molded me into who i am more than any of those subjects and i know many people that the same holds true. education on every level is important, not just those subjects you need while calculating a tip at a restaurant. quit acting like im saying we need to replace math and writing with an art class, im simply stressing the importance and impact that art can have on someone, something you feel like downplaying. so yes, im seriously saying that.

[JVB]

Are you saying that art is as important as reading, writing and math? Are you seriously saying that?

so yes, im seriously saying that.

OK you're right - we're done here.

[southen]

JVB art can be just as important as other subjects, no?

OK you're right

funny how you can completely change an argument by selectively quoting and ignoring the rest of what someone said. have a good night.

[JVB]

JVB art can be just as important as other subjects, no?

Art is not as important as learning how to read and write and do math, no. I get it, you love art. That's nice. But if you hadn't learned to read and write you wouldn't be able to tell me about it would you?

[southen]

you cant do math, science, or appreciate history if you cant read. you cant write either. i suppose all of those are second tier to reading?

its funny that someone making the argument that comerica is so important to downtown but reminding us that its just a piece of the greater puzzle is blasting art education as not important or irrelevant. well sir, to use your logic, what is truly important to a city are businesses, transportation and infrastructure. you cant have a city without those things right? a sports stadium isnt necessary or vital therefore a conversation based on its impact is pointless. i get it, you like stadiums, thats nice, but without those other factors you dont have your stadium, therefore it isnt important and its impact meaningless.

see what i did there making my point and bringing it back around to the topic of the thread?

[JVB]

you cant do math, science, or appreciate history if you cant read. you cant write either. i suppose all of those are second tier to reading?

its funny that someone making the argument that comerica is so important to downtown but reminding us that its just a piece of the greater puzzle is blasting art education as not important or irrelevant. well sir, to use your logic, what is truly important to a city are businesses, transportation and infrastructure. you cant have a city without those things right? a sports stadium isnt necessary or vital therefore a conversation based on its impact is pointless. i get it, you like stadiums, thats nice, but without those other factors you dont have your stadium, therefore it isnt important and its impact meaningless.

see what i did there making my point and bringing it back around to the topic of the thread?

I didn't say art is irrelevant [[you have a habit of constructing strawmen), I said it's not as important as reading, writing and math. Anybody that thinks it is, is batshit crazy. The argument was made that art is just as important as public schools. That's fucking idiotic.

I know a lot of successful people that have very little interest in art. I don't know any successful people that can't read or write or do math.

[rb336]

funny how you can completely change an argument by selectively quoting and ignoring the rest of what someone said. have a good night.

EVERYONE is guilty of doing that on occasion. Including Yours Truly. but I do it ironically

[southen]

no comment about applying the logic to comerica? drats.

a little blurb from an old usa today article on the subject...

"WASHINGTON — Schoolchildren exposed to drama, music and dance may do a better job at mastering reading, writing and math than those who focus solely on academics, says a report by the Arts Education Partnership.

"Notions that the arts are frivolous add-ons to a serious curriculum couldn't be further from the truth," says James Catterall, education professor at the University of California-Los Angeles, who coordinated the research.


The report is based on an analysis of 62 studies of various categories of art — ranging from dance, drama, music and visual arts — by nearly 100 researchers. It's the first to combine all the arts and make comparisons with academic achievement, performance on standardized tests, improvements in social skills and student motivation.


Catterall says the studies suggest that arts education may be especially helpful to poor students and those in need of remedial instruction.


"While education in the arts is no magic bullet for what ails many schools, the arts warrant a place in the curriculum because of their intimate ties to most everything we want for our children and schools," Catterall says.


The report took two years to produce, with funding from the National Endowment for the Arts and the U.S. Department of Education."

your narrow view on what is important and what impacts us is why this conversation keeps going. what do you think would happen if you took away kids crayons or markers at a young age in school? do you think they would still end up using their brains as creatively down the line if they werent allowed to express themselves through drawing or coloring? would they be able to express themselves properly through writing if they werent first expressing themselves by creating? keep kids from expressing themselves creatively, which is what art is, and see how successful they become in life. art education is about developing the skills necessary to be successful in life, you are mistaken if you think it is just about learning to paint or learning about other artists. you can think way outside the box and link everything downtown to comerica park but when it comes to art the concept alludes you.

[JVB]

The report took two years to produce, with funding from the National Endowment for the Arts and the U.S. Department of Education."

your narrow view on what is important and what impacts us is why this conversation keeps going. what do you think would happen if you took away kids crayons or markers at a young age in school? do you think they would still end up using their brains as creatively down the line if they werent allowed to express themselves through drawing or coloring? would they be able to express themselves properly through writing if they werent first expressing themselves by creating? keep kids from expressing themselves creatively, which is what art is, and see how successful they become in life. art education is about developing the skills necessary to be successful in life, you are mistaken if you think it is just about learning to paint or learning about other artists. you can think way outside the box and link everything downtown to comerica park but when it comes to art the concept alludes you.

You keep creating these strawmen...

My only contention is that art is not "just as important as public schools" as was claimed in this thread. Nobody said anything about taking away kids crayons and markers. The foundation of our education is reading, writing and math, everything else is secondary to those because you can not function as an adult without mastering those. You can, however, live your entire life without ever setting foot in a museum.

Those provide the foundation upon which all other learning [[including art appreciation) is built upon.

[downtownguy]

It's a silly comparison, JVB. There's a big difference between supporting charity and a billionaire. Are you against subsidizing public education, also?

You keep creating these strawmen...

My only contention is that art is not "just as important as public schools" as was claimed in this thread.

JVB, when you say someone said art is just as important as public schools, I think you're referring to my comment above. If it was someone else, please quote it for me, because I'm not finding it. Otherwise, please tell me how you jump from my comment to the one you allege has been made here.

[JVB]

If it was someone else, please quote it for me, because I'm not finding it.

Post #223.

Posts #226 and #234 essentially reiterated it too.

Like I said, I like the DIA, but come on people - let's not get too carried away.

[southen]

You keep creating these strawmen...

My only contention is that art is not "just as important as public schools" as was claimed in this thread. Nobody said anything about taking away kids crayons and markers. The foundation of our education is reading, writing and math, everything else is secondary to those because you can not function as an adult without mastering those. You can, however, live your entire life without ever setting foot in a museum.

Those provide the foundation upon which all other learning [[including art appreciation) is built upon.

and you keep ignoring the points im making. art as an outlet for creativity lays the foundation for everything else we do and enhances our ability to learn those things. just because a person has no interest in art now doesnt mean it didnt play an integral part of their education growing up. why do you think young kids come home from school every day with paintings or drawings to put on the refrigerator? are they just killing time in class? it is important because it stimulates the human mind on many levels and promotes growth and understanding.

for the record, you dont need to master reading, writing or math to function as an adult, a basic understanding does just fine. detroit city government is a perfect example of this.

[gthomas]

I found what an ideal "Fisher Greenway" would look like from Crain. Even this alone without the stadium would be a massive improvement for the area.


http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...isher-greenway

[southen]

I wish they had some numbers regarding potential cost, I love the concept though. it is one of the few things, outside an arena going there, that could help develop the area behind the fox.

[KOMPOST]

My only contention is that art is not "just as important as public schools" as was claimed in this thread. Nobody said anything about taking away kids crayons and markers. The foundation of our education is reading, writing and math, everything else is secondary to those because you can not function as an adult without mastering those. You can, however, live your entire life without ever setting foot in a museum.

Those provide the foundation upon which all other learning [[including art appreciation) is built upon.

I'm trying really hard to understand your position in this thread.
It seemed to begin with the premise that if you oppose public funds subsidizing Mike Ilitch's proposed new hockey arena, then you had better have opposed public funds for the DIA.
Am I correct so far?
I disagree with this vehemently. So, unfortunately I cannot "please tell you" that I opposed the DIA millage. Apparently, I'm not alone.
Somehow, not blaming you, the argument then conveniently dropped Mike Ilitch and his new arena altogether [[isn't that what this thread is about?) and replaced it with DPS.
Am I following this correctly?

[downtownguy]

Post #223.

Posts #226 and #234 essentially reiterated it too.

Like I said, I like the DIA, but come on people - let's not get too carried away.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll give you that, as written, post 223 puts museums on equal footing as education and libraries. I'll let the poster expound on what he meant if he wants to. But I took the statement to mean that a well-balanced education is enhanced by all three institutions.

To be sure, a person could learn to read, write, do math without ever setting foot inside a museum. And if that's all you think it takes to build a society, then good for you. But I believe that most humans yearn for more depth to their learning experience than the three Rs. Museums can aggregate a collection to serve a larger population than one school can, so we build museums. In your world, you expect them to subside on admission fees and donations alone, and perhaps they could, but it would be a much different museum than most people want.

A government exists partly to provide the things that individuals can't create alone. Public safety, education -- and yes, museums -- are some things that government supports. In this case, the people of Oakland, Macomb and Wayne counties were allowed to vote in a referendum whether they wanted to support the DIA. They chose yes.

You either support subsidies for non-essential services or you don't.

There's the essence of your argument which is where I, and I believe many others disagree with you. You state that a person cannot cannot have different opinions on which subsidies they want to support. You either do or you don't. Do I have that right?

Well, I disagree. I choose to provide a subsidy to an institution with a mission to operate without profit and to provide art and art education for the citizens of our region and it's visitors. I do not choose to support a subsidy to the third wealthiest individual in the State of Michigan to expand his empire.

[southen]

does anyone know if illitch owns the storage unit building on cass on the western edge of foxtown? I drove by there an hour ago and a huge chunk of the facade from near the top has crumbled to the street. it could easily have seriously injured someone if not killed a pedestrian.