State and Mayor Close to a Deal for State Take-over of Belle Isle

[Danny]

Mayor Bing on the state take over of Belle Isle.

"Detroit can't afford to pay any more maintenances on Belle Isle. Having the State of Michigan Parks and Recreation to lease the island to maintian its enviroment will benefit the People of Detroit and region."

[cman710]

Frankly, I liked it better when Lansing and the suburbs wanted to let Detroit rot. Behold the comical rush to "save" Detroit's jewels, courtesy of people who either loathe or misunderstand the city, its history, poor people, or why the public realm is important.

I'm sure all these ministrations will leave Detroit's institutions healthy ... as healthy as, say, Detroit Public Schools after a dozen years of outstate "help" ...

While I am not defending the state's record with DPS, are the schools really any worse than they would otherwise have been? There are many factors making DPS a disaster [[an exodus of students among them), and neither the state nor the city can easily solve those problems or they would have.

In contrast, the issues with Belle Isle are mostly a matter of maintenance and upkeep, which are more easily addressed. If the state provides better maintenance on Belle Isle and improves the park, then that directly benefits citizens of Detroit. If the state maintains the park worse than the city would have, that would be a bad thing, but then the city can opt not to renew the lease. This seems like an easy way for the city to temporarily unload a financial burden while [[a) keeping the park as a long-term asset and [[b) possibly improving the conditions in the park for everyone who uses it.

[corktownyuppie]

Frankly, I liked it better when Lansing and the suburbs wanted to let Detroit rot. Behold the comical rush to "save" Detroit's jewels, courtesy of people who either loathe or misunderstand the city, its history, poor people, or why the public realm is important.

Your version of history is not the only one on the table here. Detroit is not just about poor people. There are hundreds of thousands of Detroiters and ex-Detroiters who fall on the other side of that same history and have been waiting for decades for what they deem to be necessary change.

And I'm not talking about the white folk who fled the city in 1965. There are plenty of people who left from 1980-2012 whose history matters, too. Same with those who've stayed waiting for change, as well as those who left and then came back. We all have histories, too, and we are changing the political landscape of the city.

[Detroitnerd]

Your version of history is not the only one on the table here. Detroit is not just about poor people. There are hundreds of thousands of Detroiters and ex-Detroiters who fall on the other side of that same history and have been waiting for decades for what they deem to be necessary change.

There is no "version" of history. There is history. And then there is mythology. And it seems here that the people invested in the mythology are determined to act upon it.

Justice isn't a virtue. It's truth in action.

Injustice is acting out a lie.

[Detroitej72]

Injustice is acting out a lie.

If you think Belle Isle needs no improving now, then by your own words, you must be lying.

While I think the island is pretty well maintained now, with a little help and money, it could use some TLC.

I would like to see the aquarium open at least 5 days a week, specifically on weekends. Having the zoo reopened would sure be nice too, as it was quite an attractive facility, letting the animals roam free without cages. As a hiking enthusiast, I'd like to see the nature trails maintained. The plan was to build a boardwalk through the woods so hiking would be allowed in the spring when the trails are flooded, which would be great.

So the truth of the matter is, while BI is not the cease pool of filth that some folks here say it is, it certainly has room for improvement.

[Gistok]

DetroitNerd... have you been to Milliken State Park? What about it don't you like that causes you to raise such a fuss over Belle Isle?

Cuz you're starting to sound like Conyers, Collins, Reeves and Watson on this issue...

The eastern middle of the island is a drainage mess of a swamp with dead trees everywhere, the canals are surrounded by scrub instead of nice cleared banks, the bathroom facilities are 3rd world.... and yet you're happy with that mess.... sounds like lowered expectations... even during the CAY adminstration era they said it would cost $150 million to bring the park back to the way it used to be... .Anyone from a world class city would be appalled by the state the park is in. Perhaps you're comparing it to other "city" parks?

[Bham1982]

DetroitNerd... have you been to Milliken State Park? What about it don't you like that causes you to raise such a fuss over Belle Isle?

Isn't Miliken State Park the Riverwalk? You don't pay $10 to enter the Riverwalk. How are they comparable?

I don't really have a better solution than state control, because the city's broke. It's still sad, though. It's no longer really a public park, at least not in the traditional sense of free access to all.

[townonenorth]

There is no "version" of history. There is history. And then there is mythology. And it seems here that the people invested in the mythology are determined to act upon it.

Justice isn't a virtue. It's truth in action.


Injustice is acting out a lie.

You act out quite a bit, it seems.

They can ride the bus, as mentioned a thousand times. REAL poor people don't HAVE cars.

[Detroitnerd]

DetroitNerd... have you been to Milliken State Park? What about it don't you like that causes you to raise such a fuss over Belle Isle?

Cuz you're starting to sound like Conyers, Collins, Reeves and Watson on this issue...

I don't care who you think I am starting to sound like. I sound like myself.

The eastern middle of the island is a drainage mess of a swamp with dead trees everywhere, the canals are surrounded by scrub instead of nice cleared banks, the bathroom facilities are 3rd world.... and yet you're happy with that mess.... sounds like lowered expectations... even during the CAY adminstration era they said it would cost $150 million to bring the park back to the way it used to be... .Anyone from a world class city would be appalled by the state the park is in. Perhaps you're comparing it to other "city" parks?

Actually, that end of the island is wonderful. I like to sit at the end of the paths past the lighthouse and look out over Lake St. Clair. Maybe all that "nature" looks dumpy to you, but I noticed a family of foxes living in the broken concrete that makes up the breakwater, and you can't have wildlife like that come back, frankly, without nature.

Some of that area is best accessible by kayak, giving you a chance to probe the area and sort of feel as if you've left the city far behind. I'm sure the creatures who live in there enjoy being undisturbed. In nature, even "dead trees" have a purpose, ya know.

Then again, perhaps some people feel the island should be all ballfields and disc golf or something. I, for one, am OK with the nature component.

There's that little beach, too, if you take the path that winds back up past the lighthouse along the water. I've run into friends back there and had a great time, although I admit it involved a little illicit beer-drinking, but we did take away our bottles.

I like taking walks down the nature trail that begins just north of the soccer fields. You feel like you're in the middle of nowhere. I have been astonished at how few people traverse it. It starts with a bridge over a creek and continues down through the woods for a mile or so. There are a lot of places to get away from the boom-bap of the barbecues if you so desire.

So, yeah, I do tend to think that a lot of the people who complain about the island simply don't really KNOW the island very well, or haven't explored it.

I do agree the bathrooms should work, right?

[antongast]

You act out quite a bit, it seems.

They can ride the bus, as mentioned a thousand times. REAL poor people don't HAVE cars.

The bus that was cut during the Kilpatrick administration?

[rb336]

There is no "version" of history. There is history. And then there is mythology. And it seems here that the people invested in the mythology are determined to act upon it.

Actually, while certain events happen and certain actors were involved, that is as far as "fact" takes us. Beyond that, history is an interpretive discipline, so there are, indeed, "versions of history," some better supported by documentary evidence, some less.

[rb336]

by the way, I just can't see a downside for the city with this deal. 30 years, with an "out" clause

[Detroitnerd]

Actually, while certain events happen and certain actors were involved, that is as far as "fact" takes us. Beyond that, history is an interpretive discipline, so there are, indeed, "versions of history," some better supported by documentary evidence, some less.

Oh, more of this relativism piffle.

There is the truth. And then there is untruth.

An action not based on truth is unjust.

And there lies my problem with relativism, which is often a recipe for saying we all have individual truths, and, therefore, can't divine any real truth. Which often means we can perpetuate all kinds of injustice in the name of truth vs. truth.

But that's OK. Everybody gets a trophy.

And nobody gets a zero.

[rb336]

this is not "relativism." it is merely a FACT of the study of history. the only facts in history are "x happened, z, q and d were involved." any discussion of causes, motivation, the way the events unfolded are all up to interpretation. Just look at how often eyewitnesses to an event can describe something very different from each other. This isn't geometry, where a2xb2 =c2.

[Detroitnerd]

this is not "relativism." it is merely a FACT of the study of history. the only facts in history are "x happened, z, q and d were involved." any discussion of causes, motivation, the way the events unfolded are all up to interpretation. Just look at how often eyewitnesses to an event can describe something very different from each other. This isn't geometry, where a2xb2 =c2.

Yes, and behind all that testimony is the truth. Which we aim to get at.

And which a lot of relativistic hoo-hah would have us believe doesn't even exist in the first place.

[corktownyuppie]

Oh, more of this relativism piffle.

There is the truth. And then there is untruth.

An action not based on truth is unjust.

And there lies my problem with relativism, which is often a recipe for saying we all have individual truths, and, therefore, can't divine any real truth. Which often means we can perpetuate all kinds of injustice in the name of truth vs. truth.

But that's OK. Everybody gets a trophy.

And nobody gets a zero.

The parents of 3 sons died, and the sons all received equal shares of the inheritance.

Son one says, "That's bullshit. I sacrificed the last 4 years taking care of them and deserve to be rewarded."

Son two says, "That's bullshit. You two are wealthy doctors and lawyers, I'm just a janitor and need the money more."

Son three says, "That's bullshit. The two of you have been nothing but nasty and mean to our parents their whole lives. I'm the only that's made them happy."

That's 4 different versions of what is considered fair. History is about the facts. "Justice" is about interpreting those facts against a set of subjective values. None of this has to do with relativism, or everyone getting a trophy.

It's totally possible for 4 [[or more) people to see the same facts and arrive at 4 rationally justifiable conclusions.

[jt1]

The parents of 3 sons died, and the sons all received equal shares of the inheritance.

Son one says, "That's bullshit. I sacrificed the last 4 years taking care of them and deserve to be rewarded."

Son two says, "That's bullshit. You two are wealthy doctors and lawyers, I'm just a janitor and need the money more."

Son three says, "That's bullshit. The two of you have been nothing but nasty and mean to our parents their whole lives. I'm the only that's made them happy."

That's 4 different versions of what is considered fair. History is about the facts. "Justice" is about interpreting those facts against a set of subjective values. None of this has to do with relativism, or everyone getting a trophy.

It's totally possible for 4 [[or more) people to see the same facts and arrive at 4 rationally justifiable conclusions.

You are poitning out different opinions, not the history of the situation. The situation is that the parents died and their money was distributed equally amongst three sons.

Fair and history are nowhere in the same ballpark.

[Detroitnerd]

I think in particular of the mythology of suburban white metro Detroiters. In capsule form:

Detroit was a great city with lots of industry, good schools, a high standard of living, great job opportunities and high home values; then big, bad black people moved in and turned it into a hellhole of crime and arson, chasing out decent people.

This is the mythology, mind you, that a great many suburban white metro Detroiters live by. Only recently have such researchers as Thomas Sugrue begun to do the actual work of finding data that was hidden or -- since it didn't fit the mythology -- forgotten. This has been an especially illuminating decade given the work that Sugrue and others have put in collecting data that was long swept under the rug. The missing facts help us to much better get at the truth of what happened.

So, if you try to create public policy based on the mythology, you are mostly likely going to act unjustly.

And, similarly, if you take a good look at the research of Sugrue and others, you can create public policy that offers greater justice.

[leapfrog]

Frankly, I'll just say it again. Belle Isle is beautiful. I don't understand all those who say it's awful, a shell, a shame, or anything like that. It's a great drive. If you don't like the cookouts, head for the nature paths or the lighthouse. Honestly, it's pretty well cleaned up by the city workers. I wonder what island it is that you've seen to say such things...

I agree completely. The island is fine as is. There is no need for the State to pump money it doesn't have into an island park that is doing just fine on its own.
id rather see the money go to areas where it's needed and appreciated.

[corktownyuppie]

I think in particular of the mythology of suburban white metro Detroiters. In capsule form:

Detroit was a great city with lots of industry, good schools, a high standard of living, great job opportunities and high home values; then big, bad black people moved in and turned it into a hellhole of crime and arson, chasing out decent people.

This is the mythology, mind you, that a great many suburban white metro Detroiters live by. Only recently have such researchers as Thomas Sugrue begun to do the actual work of finding data that was hidden or -- since it didn't fit the mythology -- forgotten. This has been an especially illuminating decade given the work that Sugrue and others have put in collecting data that was long swept under the rug. The missing facts help us to much better get at the truth of what happened.

So, if you try to create public policy based on the mythology, you are mostly likely going to act unjustly.

And, similarly, if you take a good look at the research of Sugrue and others, you can create public policy that offers greater justice.

I ordered Sugrue's book. The ratings on it were fantastic. I agree that the mythology you speak of exists. I also believe that it misinforms large swaths of the population.

Should public policy be used to correct past injustices? That's a debate all in itself. And frankly, even if that is the argument that motivates Councilman Kenyatta or Councilwoman Watkins, then the problem is that their public policies haven't done a good job of correct those injustices.

Right now this question is not about who did what to whom. The goal in all of this is for all people to benefit. And I believe that is possible with a joint operating agreement.

[leapfrog]

You could say the same about the whole city. Sure, there are fewer amenities on the island, I grant you. But I still manage to enjoy myself there, and I'm afraid it's not as undesirable as some posters on this board would make it out to be.

That is, unless the posters aren't really talking about the island so much as the melanin content of recreation-seekers.

Again, you are right on the money. This deal should die, and Detroit can continue taking care of BI on its own - as it has always done.

[leapfrog]

The entire tri-county pays for HCMA parks, none of which are in Detroit.

Agreed. Detroiters should be allowed to opt out of the tax.
If Detroiters then wish to use any HCMA park, they would pay a higher entrance fee because they are not paying the tax. No one is taken advantage of, you simply pay for what you use.

[Honky Tonk]

"DetroitNerd... have you been to Milliken State Park?"

Well I Have, It's a nice, sterile, contrived environment, complete with a BS lighthouse.

“The eastern middle of the island is a drainage mess of a swamp with dead trees everywhere, the canals are surrounded by scrub instead of nice cleared banks”

How HORRIBLE, a DEAD tree in the water! OMG, NATURAL growth, the shame! Have you ever been to a natural forest? Yosemite, Jellystone?, [[YES I know it’s Yellowstone). They actually leave dead trees lying around and let nature take its course because it attracts the natural wildlife. How about Point Pelee, Pointe Mouillee? Maybe the Canadians ought to dump algaecide into the natural swampland to get rid of that pesky seaweed growth? That way you can have a nice, clear bottom, like Camp Dearborn!

“the bathroom facilities are 3rd world....”

Now THERE’S something that COULD stand improvement. I just hope the next generation knows how to behave themselves and doesn’t destroy them like the last time they were repaired.

“and yet you're happy with that mess.... sounds like lowered expectations... even during the CAY adminstration era they said it would cost $150 million to bring the park back to the way it used to be... .”

When? In 1929? Exactly what about the park did he want to restore, and what parts of that restoration estimate are no longer relevant or actually will be used, by today’s standards? I also wonder how much of that estimate included a few Krugerrands for Mr. Young’s pocket.

“Anyone from a world class city would be appalled by the state the park is in.”

Please enlighten me. What “World Class City” are you from? Perhaps a seat @ a local mall indoor water fountain is more to your liking?

Belle Isle, “the Detroit jewel” needs polishing, no doubt. Being a person that frequents the island, 2-3 times a week, I enjoy it FOR its natural state. I enjoy the wildlife, [[both natural and human), I enjoy the scenery, and the views, and the serenity. I’ve brought well-to-do people from “World Class Cities” to the island, in the summer, @ 7 p.m., and they thought it was rather cool. They were less offended by it then some of this forum’s members. I think there SHOULD be some kind of small fee collected to help offset maintenance and improvement costs, and I think there are a lot of things on Belle Isle that could use improvement. What I DON’T want is it “improved” to the point of becoming some kind of corporate waterslide park, complete with strip mall and a McBurger. The fact that Granholm wanted to sink, [[30 mil was it?), into “creating” wetlands @ Milliken State Park just cracks me up. Visiting Belle Isle, like living in Detroit, isn’t for everybody. And Belle Isle, like Detroit certainly isn’t your average cookie-cutter place. Lowered expectations indeed.

[corktownyuppie]

I think in particular of the mythology of suburban white metro Detroiters. In capsule form:

Detroit was a great city with lots of industry, good schools, a high standard of living, great job opportunities and high home values; then big, bad black people moved in and turned it into a hellhole of crime and arson, chasing out decent people.

This is the mythology, mind you, that a great many suburban white metro Detroiters live by. Only recently have such researchers as Thomas Sugrue begun to do the actual work of finding data that was hidden or -- since it didn't fit the mythology -- forgotten. This has been an especially illuminating decade given the work that Sugrue and others have put in collecting data that was long swept under the rug. The missing facts help us to much better get at the truth of what happened.

So, if you try to create public policy based on the mythology, you are mostly likely going to act unjustly.

And, similarly, if you take a good look at the research of Sugrue and others, you can create public policy that offers greater justice.

Talking about mythology...what is the pervasive myth that insists that white people are not to be trusted and are always out to take things away from us? Yes, I recognize that white people have done things which have hurt us. But not all white people have. Nor have all thing hurt us. But there's intangible sense that "they" are going to "take away" stuff from "us" when we're talking about Belle Isle.

WTF are people referring to? No one is looking to go Jim Crow on anyone at the park.

[Hermod]

You are poitning out different opinions, not the history of the situation. The situation is that the parents died and their money was distributed equally amongst three sons.

Fair and history are nowhere in the same ballpark.

OK, consider this. An "act of violence" occurs and sixty people are dead. That is history. Now comes the interpretations. Are the perpetrators of that violence common murderers and criminals? Are they terrorists? Are they "freedom fighters" with a noble cause?