Detroit State Savings Bank Owner Wants to Demolish Historic Structure, Build Parking

[wolverine]

I can tell you most other cities would not allow this to happen anymore. What you just said about Detroit's historic buildings is the one major card it has to draw in order to regroup and become a major city again. Maybe the Phoenix that was to renasce is the oe in Arizona after all. Maybe american culture in its Michigan essence is about planned obsolescence in cars and architecture and civic life come to think of it.

What is it with parking in Detroit?

This only illustrates the point that convenience for car users is an ably marketed commodity and it is now so engrained that developers cannot imagine any function for Detroit other than sheltering cars. Even Gilbert's evocation of a project on Woodward comprised a multistory lot in a sea of multistory and flat lots. Dog forbid.

Chicago has let this nonsense happen.

The developer tore down a City Landmarked building because the column grid of the building didn't line up correctly with the tower and he needed space for 5 levels of parking garage. The compromise? The developer was required to reconstruct the building's exterior, exactly as it was when it was first constructed.

The Farwell Building in the early 2000's


The Farwell site after demolition as a cleared site.


The Farwell Building begins reconstruction


The Farwell nears completion


Street level details



Down the street is another replica, the art deco tower at Northrbidge. Reconstructed in the early 2000's. Again, the curvalinear contemporary shape of the 5 level shopping mall inside had taller floors and a different grid. He was allowed to demolish the building and rebuild the exterior a similar as possible. Though you can see some of the mall floorplates slicing through the middle of windows. This was also a historic landmark.

[Hermod]

Are you saying that white people find it extremely hard to live in an environment they don't control?

That is why a lot of people retire and go live in the north woods. Even in suburbia, they can't "control" their own environment. They stick it out for the required time, draw their pension, and go find a little place by Houghton Lake.

[Richard]

Maybe it is a city requirement thing behind this,if he wants to put residential
and the city says you have to have x amount of spaces per unit he may be in
a bind,they gave Mr Gilbert $140 million to reimburse employee parking so it maybe an issue.

Do we need to be maybe changing some city requirements on the parking aspect?

[Detroit Stylin]

how do we go about somehow make the city suspend demolition of historic structures especially those that are viable? with the massive glut of surface parking in this city it makes no sense to keep demolishing for more parking...

[Richard]

Right now show support to the historical commission they have been doing an excellent job.

IMHO. The city is dropping the ball here ,drop the parking requirement ,use bonds to build city owned parking garages elimate the tear down for parking aspect and encourage the use of quick shuttles and pedal taxis ,parking problem solved the city generates revenue,shuttles make money,pedal taxies make jobs and money.parking garages are easy to bond because they make money.

[Jason]

Your making a lot of simplistic assumptions there. The turning radius of a person is different than that of a car. In downtowns, you have a greater percentage of workers who use public transit or carpool because of the economics involved with paying to park. One cube to one space is not realistic Some businesses are destinations and need a lot more spaces than others. Compare the traffic generated per employee of someplace like Galaxi Solutions to the Hard Rock Cafe across the street. One has dozens of visitors per employee, the other might go weeks without having a large meeting.

The bottom line is that transportation is not a simple thing. The land uses surrounding the location as well as the type of business it is has a lot to do with how much traffic it generates. After you define these things then you need to work on modal splits [[who drives, who walks, who takes the bus?). Are there economic barriers such as $20 per day parking that need to be overcome?

I'm talking about ballpark sizes of garages for offices.

If you want to get more specific you can.

The Penobscot Building is 776,000 square feet. If you go with 300 square feet per worker [[including that worker's share of the communal spaces), then the Penobscot Building can hold about 2600 office workers. The Compuware garage is 2200 parking spots. Even if I'm way off and the Penobscot Building only needs half as many parking spots as I estimated, that's still a lot of parking.

My point was though, was that there's nowhere near enough parking directly in the financial district for all the buildings there, but the buildings are all generally doing ok. Someone else said that a lot of the buildings actually do have their own spaces, which is true, but they don't have anywhere near enough spaces for all of the workers, and most people have to walk a few blocks. If the parking was the deal breaker this guy is making it out to be, those other buildings would all be failing, but they're not.

[Bad Brains]

If parking is such a problem in the city to a point where these kinds of buildings are going to get torn down, why doesn't the city start building up a mass transit system? It of course won't happen overnight, but right now it's awful. People basically have to depend on a car for everything.

[Jason]

Yeah that's the real shame. Mass transit isn't as much a money problem as it is a collective action problem. Ridiculous amounts of money gets spent on building parking garages.

[Scottathew]

The Penobscot Building is 776,000 square feet. If you go with 300 square feet per worker [[including that worker's share of the communal spaces), then the Penobscot Building can hold about 2600 office workers. The Compuware garage is 2200 parking spots. Even if I'm way off and the Penobscot Building only needs half as many parking spots as I estimated, that's still a lot of parking.

I think you're way off. Quicken Loans has 2,000 people alone in the Compuware building, not counting all the Compuware people that still occupy most of the floors.

My buddy that works for Quicken [[in the Chase building) has to park at the Joe Louis Arena parking garage and they have a shuttle take him over to Chase.

So, it would seem there is a parking issue.

Should this parking issue be addressed by demolishing historic buildings? No.

One possible solution I can see is to make the Hudson's site a huge parking garage that has retail lining Woodward on ground level. The Hudson's site is right next to a people mover station, which would also help with event parking. Perhaps it could even be parking with condos on the upper floors.

[Gannon]

I think you're way off. Quicken Loans has 2,000 people alone in the Compuware building, not counting all the Compuware people that still occupy most of the floors.

My buddy that works for Quicken [[in the Chase building) has to park at the Joe Louis Arena parking garage and they have a shuttle take him over to Chase.

So, it would seem there is a parking issue.

Should this parking issue be addressed by demolishing historic buildings? No.

One possible solution I can see is to make the Hudson's site a huge parking garage that has retail lining Woodward on ground level. The Hudson's site is right next to a people mover station, which would also help with event parking. Perhaps it could even be parking with condos on the upper floors.

First floor retail, for sure...that is a great idea. It will be weird, though, when that I-beam farm is finally filled in.


When Quicken's people were headed downtown, that parking garage across from Compuware...with CVS in the first floor...went from $90 per month to $140, a pretty significant jump. They must've calculated something to justify it...supply and demand, doncha know.

Although with the parking people it always seems they throw out the biggest number they think will sell. But certainly there were new employees downtown who didn't know those spots only cost $90 the month previous.


Cheers

[jtf1972]

Off the top of my head there are two surface decent size surface parking lots within one block of the Penebscot [[the lot on the northeast and the lot on the northwest intersection of Larned/Shelby). Those seem large enough for a garage. Hell, there is even that little inlet by the salad place on Congress [[though that must be too small for garage).

Maybe this owner should spend a little more money purchasing lots to make his investments worthwhile before he decides to destroy our history.

Bingo!

Also, the city should zone any new parking structures to include retail space on the street wall.

[canuck]

Here's a bank building on StJames st in Old Montreal, the financial district where a lot of older bank bldgs were either turned into condos or boutique hotels. The other buildings are either banks or brokerage houses that were reappropriated for other hotel use. It is almost impossible now to demolish a historically significant bldg even an industrial one if it is in good condition. Not so in the seventies and eighties to a certain degree. In the last picture, the old Laurentian hotel built in the forties, an ugly ass soviet style building was demolished and replaced by the Laurentian Bank building. It looked more like a grain elevator than a hotel but I think that nowadays, there would be significant interest in reusing as opposed to building something new.

Bank Condos;

Le St James;

L'hotel;

L'hotel Gault;



l


Hotel St Paul;

[DetroitPlanner]

Bingo!

Also, the city should zone any new parking structures to include retail space on the street wall.

This is already the case. Look @ the Book

[Bham1982]

My point was though, was that there's nowhere near enough parking directly in the financial district for all the buildings there, but the buildings are all generally doing ok.

I don't agree with any of this. The buildings do, in fact, have tons of parking spaces, whether directly in the building or adjacent. And these buildings are generally not doing ok, though they're certainly healthier if they have more readily available parking.

Obviously there's a correlation/causation issue, and I don't know if parking plays a huge role in the relative health. I do think it's clear that building owners believe this to be the case, though, and that's the important issue.

[canuck]

I'm talking about ballpark sizes of garages for offices.

If you want to get more specific you can.

The Penobscot Building is 776,000 square feet. If you go with 300 square feet per worker [[including that worker's share of the communal spaces), then the Penobscot Building can hold about 2600 office workers. The Compuware garage is 2200 parking spots. Even if I'm way off and the Penobscot Building only needs half as many parking spots as I estimated, that's still a lot of parking.

My point was though, was that there's nowhere near enough parking directly in the financial district for all the buildings there, but the buildings are all generally doing ok. Someone else said that a lot of the buildings actually do have their own spaces, which is true, but they don't have anywhere near enough spaces for all of the workers, and most people have to walk a few blocks. If the parking was the deal breaker this guy is making it out to be, those other buildings would all be failing, but they're not.

The Penobscot bldg would not have sold for 5$ a sq ft if things were OK. If real estate values were normally healthy, a multistory parking integrated to a development would be a given. For a lot of reasons, some owners and potential investors are not putting the value of buildings front and forward but rather lamely give priority to fast buck turnaround on parking structures. This is a universal problem in North American cities that needs to be addressed. But in Detroit where the automobile is king, and where transit is even less evident than in L.A. or Houston; the problem is exacerbated and land values plummet because of this insistence on fast in and outs to the suburbs.

[antongast]

I do think it's clear that building owners believe this to be the case, though, and that's the important issue.

Why on earth would that be the important issue? I can think of lots of more important issues in Detroit than the poorly-substantiated hypotheses of downtown landlords about why their buildings don't have more tenants.

[Jason]

I don't agree with any of this. The buildings do, in fact, have tons of parking spaces, whether directly in the building or adjacent. And these buildings are generally not doing ok, though they're certainly healthier if they have more readily available parking.

ok, so I'll try finding more numbers for you. The number of office workers will be a range between 100 and 300 square feet per worker, based on the listed area of the building. The parking spaces and building areas are figured out from real estate listings, building databases, and other sites like that.

The Buhl garage has 649 parking spots. 1173-391 workers.

One Woodward Avenue's garage has 42. 3900-1300 workers.

150 West Jefferson has 550 parking spots. 4931-1643 workers.

Guardian Building has no parking spaces. 7500-2500 workers.

One Kennedy Square has 460 parking spaces. 2560-853 workers.

Fort Washington Building [[333 W Fort) 500. 1580-526 workers.

Ford Building, no parking. 2026-675 workers.

Dime Building, 930. 3720-1240 workers.

One Detroit Center, 3165 [[counting both of the garages behind it). 16,747-5582 workers.

Chase Tower, I can't find any number for parking. Whatever parking is there is small. 5050-1683 workers.


So of course the buildings aren't 100% full [[the average downtown office building right now is 74% full), and even though the overwhelming majority of white collar workers drive, there will be a few that carpool or take the bus, so not all the workers need parking spots. Even still, it's very clear that there's not "tons" of parking spaces adjacent or attached to the office buildings. Most people have to park and walk a few blocks. There are thousands of parking spaces on Congress west of Washington Boulevard and there's a lot of parking elsewhere downtown that you could walk to take the people mover, but the parking is not next to the buildings.

[wolverine]

We can settle this discussion. Find total office occupancy / 250 * 1.1. That's the number of spaces you need assuming no mass transit.

[DetroitPlanner]

We can settle this discussion. Find total office occupancy / 250 * 1.1. That's the number of spaces you need assuming no mass transit.

Not quite that simple:
ITE Rates are functions of type of development, and square footage, number of gas pumps, number of dwelling units, or other standard measurable things, usually produced in site plans. They are typically of the form OR . They do not consider location, competitors, complements, the cost of transportation, or many other obviously likely important factors. They are often estimated based on very few observations [[a non-statistically significant sample).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_generation

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundame...rip_Generation
http://www.ite.org/emodules/scriptco...cfm?pc=IR-016F

Of course then you need to apply modal splits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/CrimeStat...Chapter.15.pdf

Note the modal split downtown will be skewed higher to transit because if various economic realities [[higher parking costs).

[wolverine]

Not quite that simple:
ITE Rates are functions of type of development, and square footage, number of gas pumps, number of dwelling units, or other standard measurable things, usually produced in site plans. They are typically of the form OR . They do not consider location, competitors, complements, the cost of transportation, or many other obviously likely important factors. They are often estimated based on very few observations [[a non-statistically significant sample).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_generation

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundame...rip_Generation
http://www.ite.org/emodules/scriptco...cfm?pc=IR-016F

Of course then you need to apply modal splits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/CrimeStat...Chapter.15.pdf

Note the modal split downtown will be skewed higher to transit because if various economic realities [[higher parking costs).

Alright then, crunch the numbers for us. I provided a simplified equation for folks that gives ballpark figures, but if you want to get more technical, the floor is yours! I don't know the square footage of downtown office space. or the existing number of parking stalls but I'm sure you do. If this is the equation Detroit bases its parking needs on, it doesn't appear to be working out so well!

[p69rrh51]

Some of the employers the biggest being Dan Gilbert have contracted to use some of the casino space and run shuttles to his buildings. I have a feeling there is not enough space even with the eyesore surface lots included. Maybe its time to actually plan for proper parking for downtown. As for the bank is there a group dedicated to McKim, Mead & White that can be contacted to help when the owner has the designation board review the status of the building?

[RaumVogel]

I think he should convert it into a restaurant...or maybe....a bank!

[Jimaz]

Not quite that simple:
ITE Rates are functions of type of development, and square footage, number of gas pumps, number of dwelling units, or other standard measurable things, usually produced in site plans. They are typically of the form OR .

<nerd alert>
The conspicuous difference between those two equations is the natural log function. Why is that difference significant? And what's the definition of a and b? Sincerely curious and non-confrontational.
</nerd alert>

[WaCoTS]

If I had to rate beautiful downtown lobby spaces... this building's would be #3... after the Guardian and David Whitney Buildings...

i would have to have the Old Wayne County Blg in that top 3 list somewhere [[and you would have to exclude theatres from the list, otherwise it would be all theaters).

having not seen the interior of this bank, i dont know how to rank it, but if it's anything at all like old Pennsy Station in NYC, then it is easily amongst the top 3 as well.


solution to this problem:
mass transit and underground parking. no further discussion required.

as already mentioned, the blank scar tissue where Hudson's used to be--it's time to actually use that for something. it is an underground garage already, with obvious provisions for building upward. why not make it the world's tallest parking garage, and the tallest building in Detroit? why not make it a dadaistic statement about our fetish with the automobile and a monument to Detroit's insanity? a 100-story parking garage casting a long shadow over the RenCen--now THAT would be something...almost North Korean... LOL then with those huuuuge sides, you could plaster MetroPCS and MGM Grand billboards all down the sides of it. 'MERICA!!

[WaCoTS]

actually i just realized that if we demolish the Coleman Young Municipal Center, that will open up a lot more parking structure space for Penobscot than if we demolish this tiny little bank.

ill email City Council asap