Detroit State Savings Bank Owner Wants to Demolish Historic Structure, Build Parking

[313WX]

Are you saying that white people find it extremely hard to live in an environment they don't control?

Look at it this way...

When people are given clay, they're going to mold it into a vision that appeals to them. That's what happening with Detroit. If you tell them "oh, you can't do that", they just find another piece of clay and mold whatever they envision elsewhere.

This is the Motor City. The vast majority of folks drive a car. All of the investors as a result cater to this type of culture. They create abundant, free parking.

So, then, everyone's so accustomed to being able to park their car in the front door that they think they should be entitled to do so everywhere. In places they cant [[and there's no other way to get around but unreliable mass transit), they tend to avoid those places.

If they're going to put time and money into something, they're going to do so in a way that's beneficial to them. If close parking benefits them, that's what they're going to try and go for.

But by not allowing them to mold their clay and telling them to cry you a river, they will only pack up their things and take them and their money elsewhere. Detroit isn't all that important, and quite frankly Detroit needs their money more than they need Detroit

[bailey]

Thanks to folks like Gilbert, Karmanos and others, many of the new workers and residents downtown are younger. Rather than chase a generation of folks that are not likely to change, I'd rather see we develop Detroit to appeal to the demographic that will support it.

Agreed, however, that cohort is only going to be able to support a smaller Detroit... and only the CBD, hipsters have no use for single family homes at 6 mile.

[Brian1979]

Agreed, however, that cohort is only going to be able to support a smaller Detroit... and only the CBD, hipsters have no use for single family homes at 6 mile.

It's long overdue that Detroit starts rebuilding it's outer neighborhoods instead of focusing strictly on Midtown and Downtown.

[313WX]

I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about the hypothetical idiot coming downtown. The truth is that he is not coming downtown, except for a Tigers or Lions game. Don't waste your time and advocate destroying Detroit's competitive edge trying to attract him downtown. Detroit will be saved by people who are not jaded by rivalries from 40 years ago. It will be saved by people who love the city for the sake of loving cities.

It's sort of a catch-22 though.

The folks that we want to attract [[20-somethings) need jobs from the "hypothetical idiots" with the businesses in Southfield, Dearborn or Troy. They're going to need cars to commute to/from these establishments, since inter-city transportation now is next-to-non existent.

In fact, giving the price of gas, these 20-something folks will likely not want to have the long commute to Southfield/Troy/Deaborn to downtown Detroit everyday, since the purpose of moving downtown in the first place was so they could be in walking distance of everything they needed and perhaps keep some of their transportation expenses down.

So instead, they're just going to leave for a city where everything is centralized, such as Chicago.

So essentially, it's a zero-sum situation for us.

[bailey]

It's sort of a catch-22 though.

The folks that we want to attract [[20-somethings) need jobs from the "hypothetical idiots" with the businesses in Southfield, Dearborn or Troy. They're going to need cars to commute to/from these establishments, since inter-city transportation now is next-to-non existent.

In fact, giving the price of gas, these 20-something folks will likely not want to have the long commute to Southfield/Troy/Deaborn to downtown Detroit everyday, since the purpose of moving downtown in the first place was so they could be in walking distance of everything they needed and perhaps keep some of their transportation expenses down.

So instead, they're just going to leave for a city where everything is centralized, such as Chicago.

So essentially, it's a zero-sum situation for us.

That is the exact sentiment summed up by my recently graduated [[UofM) cousin when evaluating offers and prospects. He had a choice between working in Auburn Hills or Chicago. Guess which one he chose.

[jsmyers]

The "value" is imaginary. There is no demand for any more office/hotel/residential or retail space. That is demonstrated by crushing vacancy rates and abandonment rate of buildings in the CBD.

I didn't mean value as in private economic value in the short term, but rather, in long term historical value. It is harder to justify the demolition of a historical building when it has the ability to be used for something productive in the future. As opposed to the the American Beauty Building for example.

I believe you are quite wrong about residential vacancy, hence the second part of my post.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...-in-demand.php

[downtownguy]

Agreed, however, that cohort is only going to be able to support a smaller Detroit... and only the CBD, hipsters have no use for single family homes at 6 mile.

No, but they would go nuts for an art deco apartment in Palmer Park, especially if they could walk to Woodward and take mass transit to a vibrant downtown. I agree that the neighborhoods need attention. But a rising tide lifts all boats, and downtown is best suited to be the catalyst.

[downtownguy]

So instead, they're just going to leave for a city where everything is centralized, such as Chicago.

Yet, you continue to advocate for the mindset of making downtown more suburban friendly, rather than building on its assets that would make it a more dense, walkable urban area like say, I don't know. Chicago?

[313WX]

Yet, you continue to advocate for the mindset of making downtown more suburban friendly, rather than building on its assets that would make it a more dense, walkable urban area like say, I don't know. Chicago?

I'm not advocating for it.

But that's what TPTB in Detroit are doing, molding Detroit/downtown in a vision that appeals to them.

[antongast]

hipsters have no use for single family homes at 6 mile.

I don't think this is true at all. I know lots of hipster-y people who live in single-family houses substantially similar to those along parts of 6 Mile. Right now, there's not much of a reason for hipsters to move along 6 Mile when they can live in more conveniently-located neighborhoods with more amenities and less crime for not that much more money, but in a hypothetical world where housing in much of Detroit was expensive and scarce, I think lots of hipsters would happily live in single-family houses along 6 Mile. There are also quite a few apartment buildings along 6 Mile for hipsters who prefer apartments.

[Hypestyles]

what are some options for re-use--

nightclub?
community center?
gym/health club?
charter school?
art gallery?

[gameguy56]

It's sort of a catch-22 though.


In fact, giving the price of gas, these 20-something folks will likely not want to have the long commute to Southfield/Troy/Deaborn to downtown Detroit everyday, since the purpose of moving downtown in the first place was so they could be in walking distance of everything they needed and perhaps keep some of their transportation expenses down.

Southfield and Dearborn are actually pretty easy commutes from Downtown. But it is a real bummer that you simply just don't have the option to live a Chicago [[or Toronto, or NYC, or Philly, or Seattle, or DC, etc.) lifestyle in Metro Detroit. You can kinda fake it if you live and work in the Downtown-Midtown area [[or maybe Birmingham), but those are just small specks. For the most part Metro Detroit is four and a half million people welded to their automobiles.

[GPCharles]

So instead, they're just going to leave for a city where everything is centralized, such as Chicago.

Have you ever driven around suburban Chicago? There are office towers and shopping malls/centers/strips everywhere, just like in the Detroit suburbs.

[gameguy56]

Have you ever driven around suburban Chicago? There are office towers and shopping malls/centers/strips everywhere, just like in the Detroit suburbs.

He didn't say Auburn hills vs Naperville.

If it's Auburn Hills vs Chicago, Chicago is getting a recent UofM grad 9 times out of 10.

[GPCharles]

The point is that everything in Chicago isn'tcentralized.

[bailey]

The point is that everything in Chicago isn'tcentralized.

Everything isn't but the discussion was what the young professional generation is looking for. "Everything" that counts to many who are putting Michigan in the rear-view mirror is there. There is nothing like Lincoln Park or [[insert other trendy neighborhood here...Bucktown? Wrigleyville?) in Detroit. There is nothing like the L in Detroit. There are nowhere near as many major companies in Detroit looking to hire these people. Yes, Auburn Hills or Troy and Naperville or Schamburg look similar, but Naperville isn't the comparison.

[Gistok]

BTW, are the stock photo samples you see when you do a google image search of "Detroit 'Julian Scott'" this building?

Yes jsmyers, those are some [[rather small) images of the interior of the building. All surfaces are a cream colored marble with classic detailing, fluted columns, Roman arches and crown moldings.

The triple arch images with a clock in the upper part of the middle arch is actually the very center of the building. the middle arch is where the large bank vault is located on the lower half, and open upper half [[as are the 2 arches on either side of it).

So you have a large rectangular room with a glassed in mezzanine all around the perimeter, and its' cut in half by triple arches [[on both sides) where the bank vault is.

Here's a simplistic floorplan of the space [[from memory)... with the triple arches in the middle, and the bank vault in black in the middle. Around the sides are columns with 1 story underneath, and a somewhat opaque arched glass closing of the mezzanine level above. Note: the light from the outside windows comes thru the mezzanine level glass to light up the interior.

[Eber Brock Ward]

The point is that everything in Chicago isn'tcentralized.

If you compare Chicago and Detroit, Chicago is centralized enough that you don't need to bother with things outside of a tight, central area.

In Detroit, I often have to venture outside of the Grand Blvd loop to get stuff done. In Chicago, I rarely left a similarly sized loop from like Belmont north, Western west, and 14th south.

Simply put, in Chicago, if you favor a certain lifestyle, you never/rarely have to deal with the suburbs or the outer parts of the city. Here, living in Woodbridge, I often have to hop on the Ford to head to Allen Park to get stuff because the hardward is closed or something like that. Basically, Detroit is not centralized enough to allow me to not go out there.

[Jason]

I apprecaite the depth of your knowledge... I'd love to see all the parking studies you have done to determine that certain garages aren't enough parking for entire buildings.

Imagine how a big a one person cubicle is, and then imagine how big a parking space is. Take the overall volume of the building, take a decent chunk off [[to account for all the conference/lobby/bathroom/etc. space), and that's how big the garage has to be to accommodate all the cars. For an example, look at the size of the Compuware Building relative to its garage, and keep in mind how much of the Compuware building is the atrium.

The other buildings in the financial district have a small amount of underground parking, which soften the demand for parking elsewhere and provide good parking for guests but it's nowhere near enough to provide spots for all the office workers.


I'm definitely not disagreeing that parking is important, and if the Penobscot had a few underground spots of it own it would help out a lot. But I don't think the fate of the building is tied to having dedicated adjacent parking.



I've tried finding vacancy rates for the Penobscot Building from before the Northern Group bought the building. The only number I was able to find was 80% full in 1997, at $12-15 per square foot. Downtown's overall vacancy was 20% in that year.

He plans on renting for $10 per square foot, and downtown is 26% vacant. iirc he bought the building for $4 per square foot.

The building is currently half full. If he can keep the elevators working and the heat on I think he should be able to get it on par with other buildings downtown. And really, even if it's just poaching tenants from other buildings downtown I think he should be able to do it.

[Danny]

Those private developers can't do that! We must protest. In Detroit historical stuctures up to 100 years old must be perserved and cannot be demolished. Me must protest. Tie ourselves to that State savings Bank Building until our cries are being heard.

Let's save that building.

[DetroitPlanner]

Imagine how a big a one person cubicle is, and then imagine how big a parking space is. Take the overall volume of the building, take a decent chunk off [[to account for all the conference/lobby/bathroom/etc. space), and that's how big the garage has to be to accommodate all the cars. For an example, look at the size of the Compuware Building relative to its garage, and keep in mind how much of the Compuware building is the atrium.

Your making a lot of simplistic assumptions there. The turning radius of a person is different than that of a car. In downtowns, you have a greater percentage of workers who use public transit or carpool because of the economics involved with paying to park. One cube to one space is not realistic Some businesses are destinations and need a lot more spaces than others. Compare the traffic generated per employee of someplace like Galaxi Solutions to the Hard Rock Cafe across the street. One has dozens of visitors per employee, the other might go weeks without having a large meeting.

The bottom line is that transportation is not a simple thing. The land uses surrounding the location as well as the type of business it is has a lot to do with how much traffic it generates. After you define these things then you need to work on modal splits [[who drives, who walks, who takes the bus?). Are there economic barriers such as $20 per day parking that need to be overcome?

[downtownguy]

I found this blog with a page dedicated to the Financial District. The second image is from the Sibley side and shows the elevated walkway across Sibley. The last few images show more of the building including early photos of the exterior and the interior. The exterior shot is cool because it was taken before the Penobscot was built next door.

http://www.belleislehome.com/2010/02...financial.html

[Brian1979]

A major reason that Chicago has a vibrant downtown area is because of the L. The L connects neighborhoods to downtown and beyond, you can get on the Brown Line at Kimball and be downtown in about 20-25 minutes and that is all the way up at Lawrence and Kimball in the Albany Park neighborhoods, it has stops all the way to the loop and connects those neighborhoods. That is something that Detroit is lacking, downtown is isolated from the rest of the city by expressway's and has nothing to connect downtown with the rest of the city.

Chicago has six expressway's in the city to Detroit's seven, the difference is that Chicago has about 90 more square miles of land than Detroit does as well. You could take Detroit and Cleveland's land area and you would still be under Chicago's land area. And out of the expressway's you figure only three of them come anywheres near downtown Chicago, while 5 of Detroit's 7 come anywheres near downtown Detroit.

In Chicago, you don't have to leave an area to get your everyday living needs done and if you do most of the time you can get to where you need to go via mass transit, being that it's the bus or train. In Detroit, you have to get in your car and drive about 15-20 minutes or even farther to get to where you need to go and this is in inner city Detroit too, it's like it's a bunch of suburbs put together in Detroit. Now in Chicago you feel like you are connected to the city pretty much no matter where you go.

The bottom line is the L is one of the seven wonders of Chicago and does a very good job of getting people around the city, wherever you can't get to on the L you can get to on a CTA bus route which run at a much better rate than a DDOT bus route. Where I'm at in Canaryville, I can get a red line train at 47th and take that into downtown Chicago in about 15-20 minutes without having to take a car and worry about parking.

[canuck]

This is idiotic. One of Downtown's greatest selling points is the historic property. There are tons of parking lots down there that should have parking garages on them. This is ridiculous.

I can tell you most other cities would not allow this to happen anymore. What you just said about Detroit's historic buildings is the one major card it has to draw in order to regroup and become a major city again. Maybe the Phoenix that was to renasce is the oe in Arizona after all. Maybe american culture in its Michigan essence is about planned obsolescence in cars and architecture and civic life come to think of it.

What is it with parking in Detroit?

This only illustrates the point that convenience for car users is an ably marketed commodity and it is now so engrained that developers cannot imagine any function for Detroit other than sheltering cars. Even Gilbert's evocation of a project on Woodward comprised a multistory lot in a sea of multistory and flat lots. Dog forbid.

[wolverine]

The point is that everything in Chicago isn'tcentralized.

Well of course there are major job centers in the suburbs. However, with over 300,000 office workers in just the Loop, it has always been the most accommodating of increased centralization without catering to the automobile. You have CTA access to the fringe areas of the city and Metra and Southshore Rail out to the distant suburbs and other states. Shoot...only a matter of time before commuter rail to Chicago crosses into Michigan. It's amazing the diversity of places people live at my office. We got people from Kenosha, WI and Michigan City, IN that take the trains in.

The only limitations to intensive growth in the loop are available real-estate for 1 million + sqft office towers and economic growth which has been slow. The current illusion is that the city of Chicago is experiencing explosive economic growth when in fact, it's large corporations leaving the suburbs and moving into the city. It's leaving swaths of economic devastation as entire companies pack up thousands of employees and the suburban communities suddenly don't have their biggest taxpayers.

If Detroit can continue to attract companies downtown, rail is going to make alot more sense. You'll extend lines out to the largest urban centers on the edge of Detroit. Its impact will be reshuffling growth patterns in the metro closer to these major points of access that will feed downtown.

People tend to discuss transit in the present. "X Community isn't dense enough for transit. OR Not enough people will ride, parking is already cheap." Well that's true at the moment, but that's not the way to think about transit. You must consider the impacts and future demands it will have on the community it runs through. When I visit some of the suburbs surrounding Metra stations, you wouldn't believe how some of these small towns have bulked up with thousands of additional residential units and dozens of new stores and restaurants into walkable urban centers. If it was 1992, you'd laugh at such a prospect. It was maybe a couple drab historic buildings and strip retail.