Detroit State Savings Bank Owner Wants to Demolish Historic Structure, Build Parking

[DetroitPlanner]

We can settle this discussion. Find total office occupancy / 250 * 1.1. That's the number of spaces you need assuming no mass transit.

Not quite that simple:
ITE Rates are functions of type of development, and square footage, number of gas pumps, number of dwelling units, or other standard measurable things, usually produced in site plans. They are typically of the form OR . They do not consider location, competitors, complements, the cost of transportation, or many other obviously likely important factors. They are often estimated based on very few observations [[a non-statistically significant sample).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_generation

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundame...rip_Generation
http://www.ite.org/emodules/scriptco...cfm?pc=IR-016F

Of course then you need to apply modal splits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/CrimeStat...Chapter.15.pdf

Note the modal split downtown will be skewed higher to transit because if various economic realities [[higher parking costs).

[wolverine]

Not quite that simple:
ITE Rates are functions of type of development, and square footage, number of gas pumps, number of dwelling units, or other standard measurable things, usually produced in site plans. They are typically of the form OR . They do not consider location, competitors, complements, the cost of transportation, or many other obviously likely important factors. They are often estimated based on very few observations [[a non-statistically significant sample).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_generation

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundame...rip_Generation
http://www.ite.org/emodules/scriptco...cfm?pc=IR-016F

Of course then you need to apply modal splits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/CrimeStat...Chapter.15.pdf

Note the modal split downtown will be skewed higher to transit because if various economic realities [[higher parking costs).

Alright then, crunch the numbers for us. I provided a simplified equation for folks that gives ballpark figures, but if you want to get more technical, the floor is yours! I don't know the square footage of downtown office space. or the existing number of parking stalls but I'm sure you do. If this is the equation Detroit bases its parking needs on, it doesn't appear to be working out so well!

[Jimaz]

Not quite that simple:
ITE Rates are functions of type of development, and square footage, number of gas pumps, number of dwelling units, or other standard measurable things, usually produced in site plans. They are typically of the form OR .

<nerd alert>
The conspicuous difference between those two equations is the natural log function. Why is that difference significant? And what's the definition of a and b? Sincerely curious and non-confrontational.
</nerd alert>

[p69rrh51]

Some of the employers the biggest being Dan Gilbert have contracted to use some of the casino space and run shuttles to his buildings. I have a feeling there is not enough space even with the eyesore surface lots included. Maybe its time to actually plan for proper parking for downtown. As for the bank is there a group dedicated to McKim, Mead & White that can be contacted to help when the owner has the designation board review the status of the building?

[RaumVogel]

I think he should convert it into a restaurant...or maybe....a bank!

[WaCoTS]

actually i just realized that if we demolish the Coleman Young Municipal Center, that will open up a lot more parking structure space for Penobscot than if we demolish this tiny little bank.

ill email City Council asap

[ggcanfield]

Link to page of Library of Congress photos of exterior and interior of building from its early days:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?...bank%20detroit

[wolverine]

Maybe the Penobscot owners need to market the parking all around. I mean I see plenty of options. Park in the Dime Building Garage

[legalbeagle922]

I'm certainly no fan of the new owner because he doesn't appear to be making upgrades to the buildings he purchases like Mr. Gilbert does. However, I wanted to point out that the majority of the Penobscot tenants parked in the Dime Building garage until Dan Gilbert's company nullified the parking contracts because he felt he could market the Dime Building [[and new Chrysler tenants) if he had adequate parking for them.

[401don]

Cover story in today's Toronto Star Business section:

http://www.thestar.com/business/arti...parking-garage

[downtownguy]

I don't know much about Matt Clayson except what I found in a quick search on Google today. He's the Director of the Detroit Creative Corridor Center. I don't know how much influence he has, but he was formerly an executive with ePrize which means he may be part of Dan Gilbert's circle. Anyway, I love his quote from the Toronto Star:

“It’s unfortunate that the goodwill he [[Apostolopoulos) built with the Penobscot building has definitely been undone by this,” said Matt Clayson, who helps startup companies get their footing in Detroit.
“He’s got a real find there. We work with lots of companies looking for space in Detroit. The last thing they ask about is parking. They’re not concerned if their employees have to walk a block or two.”

I also found this line from the article interesting:

Apostolopoulos says he’s part of a group of Detroit businessmen, all of whom are trying to bring more retail back downtown but believe more parking is essential.

Is he implying that he is working closely with other Detroit businessmen who share his views on parking, or is the reference to "group" just informal? And why does he single out retail when the real growth lately, and his primary interest in the Penobscot Building, is office space?

[Richard]

I don't know much about Matt Clayson except what I found in a quick search on Google today. He's the Director of the Detroit Creative Corridor Center. I don't know how much influence he has, but he was formerly an executive with ePrize which means he may be part of Dan Gilbert's circle. Anyway, I love his quote from the Toronto Star:


I also found this line from the article interesting:


Is he implying that he is working closely with other Detroit businessmen who share his views on parking, or is the reference to "group" just informal? And why does he single out retail when the real growth lately, and his primary interest in the Penobscot Building, is office space?

He is behind the push for more casinos ,maybe the P building would make a nice casino with a parking garage next to it.

[downtownguy]

Finally, some stats on parking downtown in an article from Huffpost Detroit:

Detroit Parking: Analyst Says Tearing Down State Savings Bank For Garage Doesn't Make Sense

Detroit's downtown has far more parking per worker than nearly every major downtown in the country, from San Francisco to Atlanta, New York to San Diego.

[cman710]

In the article, Linn also states that "we're likely near capacity in some areas of downtown. Of course, this is more a shortage of the most convenient parking than a shortage of parking. If people were willing to walk a little further, we'd have far better utilization of our existing parking supply and less of a need for parking. While we might have a shortage of parking in the financial district during peak business hours, we have a glut of parking that goes unused most days a few blocks north in Foxtown. If people would be willing to walk a couple extra minutes to their destination, we'd have a far lower need for parking because each parking spot could serve more destinations."

Clearly the lots in Foxtown are of little help to the Penobscot Building, but as a general matter, I think perceptions and realities about crime in Detroit impact people's willingness to walk a few blocks. If downtown were extremely safe and had a very active streetlife, I think many people would be less likely to object to a short walk.

[gthomas]

They need a more strategic parking plan Downtown, just for businesses Downtown. My roommate just moved here from Chicago and mentioned that they have the worst parking situation in Downtown Chicago, even with good Mass Transit [[the L etc). Here in Detroit, we need to stop tearing down historic structures for parking, there's plenty of surface parking lots that can be developed into Parking Garages w/ ground level retail, hopefully adding more future [[residential/office) development atop of it.

What is the max height for building a parking structure? I believe Chicago has a parking structure so tall it looks like a skyscraper and actually doesn't look bad. My idea was to build a "Skyscraper" parking structure Downtown on the Lafayette or Monroe block or how bout those [[two) huge surface parking lots in front of the Free Press Building between Fort st. and Michigan ave.

But I strongly stress the need of Mass transit in this City!!! OOOOMMMMGGGG, get this shit going!! So sick of talking about it!!! All these 5 years studies of nothing, just to get knock down more on promise hope. Smh!!

My roommate works @ Quicken Loans and say they need more parking for its employees and stress the need for more to bring and attract more business/retail downtown. They use most of the Garages in the downtown area and shuttle the employees to and from work in the CBD.

[gthomas]

Detroit Parking: Analyst Says Tearing Down State Savings Bank For Garage Doesn't Make Sense


Detroit's downtown has far more parking per worker than nearly every major downtown in the country, from San Francisco to Atlanta, New York to San Diego.


These cities mention has.....very solid !!!!MASS TRANSIT!!! and is developing more to extend and modernize their system. Here in Detroit, the "Motor" city, we love our cars....smh! "Hey lets build more surface parking lots and let our neighborhoods and urban fabric disappeared"!!! What great leadership we have in this region. I love it!

We will never understand how to run a city properly for growth and positive livelihoods. Other successful cities we seen and been to should be a catalyst for positive change here in Detroit. Why cant we grasp the importance of keeping and retaining residents/business/retail alike?

Coffee shops, bicycling, greenways, grocery stores, and MASS TRANSIT...arent new to those cities, its quite the norm. But here...hahahahahahaha....enough said!

[DetroitPlanner]

They should turn the bottom floor into a Cheesecake Factory and the Upper Floor into a House of Blues!

[Richard]

They should turn the bottom floor into a Cheesecake Factory and the Upper Floor into a House of Blues!

That would be awesome maybe add some Jazz in there to round it off.

Anybody buying downtown knows in advance they will need to create the demand,there is a way bigger picture here.What are the other buildings of his 5 ?

[rjlj]

Like Richard said, look at the bigger picture here.

This guy is part of the group who wants to open 8 casions in Michigan.
Rumor has it that they want to open a casino on the site of the Pontchartrain Hotel.
The State Savings Bank Building is 1 block from the Pontchartrain Hotel.
Just connect the dots.

That would be awesome maybe add some Jazz in there to round it off.

Anybody buying downtown knows in advance they will need to create the demand,there is a way bigger picture here.What are the other buildings of his 5 ?

[DetroitPlanner]

Other Buildings include the Silverdome. The Penobscot is 3 buildings and the Bank is one. That may be the 5.

[DetroitPlanner]

I just ran across this. What are your thoughts? Do we need underground walkways?
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...isions_co.html

From the article:
"The area needs retail," Apostolopoulos said. "Typically what we've seen with other markets we've invested in, with areas that have been depressed, you bring the office jobs, then the foot traffic, then restaurants, then you need actual residences, because people say, 'Hey this a great place to live.'"
Apostolopoulos said there about 10,000 extra people in the downtown area, with more coming in every day, including to the buildings now owned by Triple Properties.
"We don't necessarily issue a press release every time we sign 1,000-square-foot tenants in the Penobscot Buidling, but we're bringing in new tenants pretty much weekly," he said.

[downtownguy]

I was encouraged when I read this paragraph from the article:

"We do have some retail intentions for that property, and in some way, shape or form we're going to utilize what's there," he said of the 112-year-old State Savings Bank property, which is said to represent classic Beaux-Arts architecture. "Tearing it down is something we were looking at, and we're just going to see if it's feasible. We're trying to grow the area. We're not just trying to knock things down and build parking lots."

But then this quote seems totally pie-in-the-sky to me:

"Just like New York, Toronto has this underground path they call it, where 70 percent of the sky scrapers downtown are all intertwined by this underground shopping plaza," Apostolopoulos said. "Basically what we're looking for in our buildings is to have them all interwined, so each building can be connected by the lobby. It creates a really nice flow so someone in the wintertime can come in from the suburbs, drive in to Detroit, park in underground at State Savings, and they don't even need to be exposed to the elements."

In Toronto and New York, I believe the underground retail grew around their subway systems. Without a subway in Detroit, what would drive enough people underground to support retail? And what's with that line about parking underground at State Savings? Is that even possible, both from an engineering standpoint as well as financial? Or, is he just trying to look like a nice guy for now with all these great ideas for Detroit until he says, sorry, the only practical answer is to tear down the bank?

Also, the writer twice refers to the 47 story Penobscot building and two adjacent office buildings. I've never heard them referred before as anything but collectively as the Penobscot. What's up with that?

[iheartthed]

In Toronto and New York, I believe the underground retail grew around their subway systems. Without a subway in Detroit, what would drive enough people underground to support retail? And what's with that line about parking underground at State Savings? Is that even possible, both from an engineering standpoint as well as financial? Or, is he just trying to look like a nice guy for now with all these great ideas for Detroit until he says, sorry, the only practical answer is to tear down the bank?

Also, the writer twice refers to the 47 story Penobscot building and two adjacent office buildings. I've never heard them referred before as anything but collectively as the Penobscot. What's up with that?

He's just making shit up. I work in a skyscraper in lower Manhattan. There is no underground retail network in New York that connects 70% of the skyscapers.

[cman710]

iheartthed is correct. There is no underground retail network in New York that connects many skyscrapers. There are areas in midtown where some buildings are connected underground, but that is about it. And in dowtown Manhattan, there is not even that. When I worked in downtown Manhattan, I walked outside nearly every day to get lunch, even in the winter, along with thousands of other people.

[DetroitPlanner]

The Penobscot and the Bank both already have a lot of retail spaces that are accessed in the level below the lobby. For the most part these are underutilized. The only reasonably viable ones that come to mind are the Caucus Club and Wesley Berry florists. Perhaps he wants to link the two buildings by this level?

Both Chicago and Montreal have these as well. This is analogous to the skywalks in MPS. Detroit it may prove to be difficult for too many skywalks due to people mover. Besides, if the goal is to create people on the streets, giving them alternatives won't do much to generate pedestrian activity at street level.