Detroit State Savings Bank Owner Wants to Demolish Historic Structure, Build Parking

[mikefmich]

One Woodward Ave. basement parks less than 100 cars, even stacked two high. When I worked there, our entire firm had to park in the Ford Underground Garage.

It's been many years since I parked there, but I don't think there was room for even 50 cars down there.

[iheartthed]

How well was Detroit doing with that attitude under Coleman Young?

...to be honest, Detroit was arguably healthier under Coleman Young. Certainly not worse off than it is now. Detroit didn't lose 25% of its population in a single decade while Coleman was mayor. The city did manage to at least get a portion of a transit system built and did it under far stronger opposition from suburban leadership than exists today. But most importantly, the city was not effectively bankrupt under Coleman. Granted, his tenure as mayor did not occur in a vacuum, so the effects of his leadership are still in Detroit today. But Detroit also went into sustained decline well before he became mayor.

[DetroitPlanner]

How well was Detroit doing with that attitude under Coleman Young?

Coleman Young was never the villain most on this board make him out to be. He presided over a time when the city was shrinking and going though tough demographic changes [[white flight, increases in the poor). He was not the start of these issues and he was very pragmatic when it came to doing the right thing.

[313WX]

...to be honest, Detroit was arguably healthier under Coleman Young. Certainly not worse off than it is now. Detroit didn't lose 25% of its population in a single decade while Coleman was mayor. The city did manage to at least get a portion of a transit system built and did it under far stronger opposition from suburban leadership than exists today. But most importantly, the city was not effectively bankrupt under Coleman. Granted, his tenure as mayor did not occur in a vacuum, so the effects of his leadership are still in Detroit today. But Detroit also went into sustained decline well before he became mayor.

Coleman Young was never the villain most on this board make him out to be. He presided over a time when the city was shrinking and going though tough demographic changes [[white flight, increases in the poor). He was not the start of these issues and he was very pragmatic when it came to doing the right thing.

The point is the folks who controlled all of Detroit's capital for whatever reason got fed up with feeling completely alienated by TPTB in Detroit under Young's tenure, and as a result fled the city. By the early 1990s, what was left of inner-city Detroit was a post-apocalyptic hellhole and many of the formerly stable neighborhoods had begun their slow/sad decline. The effects from that loss of capital of course just weren't in our face until a decade or two later.

This town has never been one for compromise. It's a town where the folks want it their way or the highway.

If we want to see a Detroit come back, it's going to have to be under the terms of those who hold all the money/capital.

[antongast]

Detroit is "coming back", just under the rules of those who have the gold [[suburbanites).

What that means is only the assets of Detroit that are relevant to them will be revived.

Okay, so the overwhelming majority of the city is irrelevant to "them," but us irrelevant folk are obligated to make "them" feel welcome in Detroit, lest "they" decide not to grace us with their downtown parking garages?

[313WX]

Okay, so the overwhelming majority of the city is irrelevant to "them," but us irrelevant folk are obligated to make "them" feel welcome in Detroit, lest "they" decide not to grace us with their downtown parking garages?

In 2013 or 2014, vote folks like Bing and Snyder out of office then.

That'll be a start.

Otherwise, get used to the way things will be in Detroit from here on out. I don't like it, but I can't control it.

[antongast]

2013, vote folks like Bing and Snyder out of office then.

That'll be a start.

I didn't vote for either of them, and I'm certainly not planning to start now. But then, I'm pretty irrelevant.

[iheartthed]

The point is the folks who controlled all of Detroit's capital for whatever reason got fed up with feeling completely alienated by TPTB in Detroit under Young's tenure, and as a result fled the city. By the early 1990s, what was left of inner-city Detroit was a post-apocalyptic hellhole and many of the formerly stable neighborhoods had begun their slow/sad decline. The effects from that loss of capital of course just weren't in our face until a decade or two later.

This town has never been one for compromise. It's a town where the folks want it their way or the highway.

If we want to see a Detroit come back, it's going to have to be under the terms of those who hold all the money/capital.

I know you mean well but you're deluding yourself if you think Coleman Young was the reason why Detroit was abandoned. Read up on U.S. housing policy during the postwar period, the practice of blockbusting, redlining, etc., if you want to know why Detroit is now a failed city.

[313WX]

I know you mean well but you're deluding yourself if you think Coleman Young was the reason why Detroit was abandoned. Read up on U.S. housing policy during the postwar period, the practice of blockbusting, redlining, etc., if you want to know why Detroit is now a failed city.

I'm not saying he was THE reason why.

But that was the perspective people had under his tenure. When they think back to how rough the 1970s and 1980s were in the city, the first person that comes to mind is Coleman Young. His outspoken voice for social justice didn't help things either.

I don't think Coleman Young was a bad mayor either personally.

[313WX]

I didn't vote for either of them, and I'm certainly not planning to start now. But then, I'm pretty irrelevant.

Well unfortunately it is what it is.

More people in Metro Detroit/Michigan agree on a different perspective than you do, and the majority rule.

There was a post on here a few weeks/months ago about a person who contacted a real estate subsidiary of Dan Gilbert's corporation [[Rockbridge?) and when trying to inquire about the property value of a home in one of Detroit's neighborhoods. The woman on the other end passive-aggressively said they only deal with downtown and have no interest in the neighborhoods.

[iheartthed]

I'm not saying he was THE reason why.

But that was the perspective people had under his tenure. When they think back to how rough the 1970s and 1980s were in the city, the first person that comes to mind is Coleman Young. His outspoken voice for social justice didn't help things either.

I don't think Coleman Young was a bad mayor either personally.

Even if that's true, I don't think it's helpful to pander to people with such misguided opinions. If they aren't intelligent enough to understand that CAY is not the single reason Detroit imploded then 1) why even give a crap about their opinion since they are clearly unreasonable, and more importantly 2) why are we talking about tearing down buildings so that some hypothetical idiot from the suburbs, with such a shallow understanding of history, can park his car closer to the Guardian Building?

[313WX]

Even if that's true, I don't think it's helpful to pander to people with such misguided opinions. If they aren't intelligent enough to understand that CAY is not the single reason Detroit imploded then 1) why even give a crap about their opinion since they are clearly unreasonable, and more importantly 2) why are we talking about tearing down buildings so that some hypothetical idiot from the suburbs can park his car closer to the Guardian Building?

But consider the people you're referencing.

It doesn't matter how you feel about them and their perspective. Fact of the matter is they still run the show.

[antongast]

why are we talking about tearing down buildings so that some hypothetical idiot from the suburbs, with such a shallow understanding of history, can park his car closer to the Guardian Building?

Because hypothetical idiots from the suburbs are more important than actual city residents. Anyone who does not politely and deferentially accept this state of affairs is being unnecessarily combative and contributing to the decline of Detroit.

[p69rrh51]

Curbed Detroit thinking they are funny.


https://www.facebook.com/MichiganNeedsMoreParking

[downtownguy]

But then we'll be back to whining about the fact that no one comes downtown.

Part of the reason suburbanites don't come to Detroit is because they feel they're not welcome. What makes you think they're going to come if it's not on their own terms?

Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease! So that's what's been keeping people away from downtown all these years? No adjacent parking???

Many people are adding comments here about the availability or lack thereof of parking downtown. Earlier in this thread, I asked if anyone had current stats of utilization of parking garages downtown. Other than anectodal comments, I've yet to see stats. I think that would give us all a clearer picture of why the Penobscot owner feels a need to add a garage. So, I ask again. Does anybody have current stats?

Another concern I have is whether these folks have the wherewithall to follow through on their plans. We saw how the Northern Group came to town and snatched up the Penobscot, First National and Lafayette Towers, as they teased us with a new $150 million development on Cadillac Square. How did that turn out?

So now I'm wondering how another supposedly savvy investor buys a building so sorely in need of adjacent parking without getting that worked out in advance. Maybe he had an option on the Savings Bank Building at that time and only exercised it recently. But if he did his due diligence, didn't know the hurdles he was going to have in his way to destroy one of the most beautiful and historic buildings downtown?

And, finally, to those that say he needs adjacent parking to attract high caliber tenants, then why does his business plan call for offering rents well below the going rate downtown? The WSJ quoted Steve Apostolopoulos as intending to lower rents from $15 a square foot to $10 a square foot. And this is no small building, so he's going to need a lot of money to renovate it in addition to the $20 for the parking structure.

Maybe the numbers work. I admit, I'm no real estate developer. But I'd feel a lot better about these folks if I didn't have so many questions about their intentions.

[313WX]

Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease! So that's what's been keeping people away from downtown all these years? No adjacent parking???

No.

What's been keeping folks from coming downtown all of these years is the fact that the folks that we want to come downtown [[those with money, suburbanites) until now couldn't have things their way.

[rjlj]

You bring more people downtown with less cars by building places for them to live downtown and provinding them easy and affordable public transit. The central business district does not have a lot of places to live and poor public transit. Until that changes, buidings like this will continually be endangered.

I worked in the Penobscot Building for about six years. Our employer offered subsidized [[I think it was even free... this was the 90s) parking at Joe Louis Arena. Most people walked to and fro, but there was a pretty great shuttle service that others used that was quick and easy.

There are many many more options than to tear down a classic, centuries old building designed by one of the most prestigious firms in the history of architecture. For instance, why not use some of the $20 million to tear it down and build a parking garage, and use it to add to others efforts of increasing public transit.

The question should be, how do you bring more people downtown with less cars [[and so, less need for parking)?

[313WX]

You bring more people downtown with less cars by building places for them to live downtown and provinding them easy and affordable public transit. The central business district does not have a lot of places to live and poor public transit. Until that changes, buidings like this will continually be endangered.

Agreed.

And you can't really have one without the other. Mass transit requires a critical mass [[high density) to be "successful" and high density requires an environment that doesn't have to cater only to the automobile.

[antongast]

No.

What's been keeping folks from coming downtown all of these years is the fact that the folks that we want to come downtown [[those with money, suburbanites) until now couldn't have things their way.

Are you saying that white people find it extremely hard to live in an environment they don't control?

[jsmyers]

Anyone with half a brain and who has been inside the beautiful classic marble interior of this building would be appalled with this idea.

...

It was built so strongly that a 20 story hotel tower was at one time planned to be built on TOP of it. And one of the reasons was... because the lobby is even more sumptuous than the inside of the Book-Cadillac.

...

If I had to rate beautiful downtown lobby spaces... this building's would be #3... after the Guardian and David Whitney Buildings...

Seems to me that this on its own is enough to save the building. The ability to put 200,000 or more extra square feet on top of it makes it more valuable as is than it would be in if the building could not be expanded.

There are certainly other options. It will be interesting to learn how the DEGC is involved with any of this. Hopefully they are working to help the Penobscot owners find a way to improve their parking situation that doesn't involve tearing down a great building with a lot of potential and just as much history [[not to mention beauty).

If Detroit really needs more parking [[not just more information about parking or more street life to making walking more acceptable), then it seems that the lot behind the Detroit Club and the Free Press Building [[Fort@Washington) would be a great place to build a really sizable garage. It is only one block further.

If I owned the Penobscot buildings [[there are three, and I think they are all owned by the same group), I'd be looking to active that great lobby, even if it mean tearing some openings through it to connect it to the neighboring Penobscot Building [[1905) and Penobscot Annex [[1913). Tenants of the tower would then be able to walk inside to within a block of that parking [[or a number of other spaces).

At the same time, I'd imagine that some of the floors might be more appropriate to convert into residential. The parking demand [[spaces per assignable square feet) would be lower, and the residential is probably a little better right now.

I'd love to see some interior shots to get an idea of what it might look like used.

[iheartthed]

But consider the people you're referencing.

It doesn't matter how you feel about them and their perspective. Fact of the matter is they still run the show.

I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about the hypothetical idiot coming downtown. The truth is that he is not coming downtown, except for a Tigers or Lions game. Don't waste your time and advocate destroying Detroit's competitive edge trying to attract him downtown. Detroit will be saved by people who are not jaded by rivalries from 40 years ago. It will be saved by people who love the city for the sake of loving cities.

[jsmyers]

BTW, are the stock photo samples you see when you do a google image search of "Detroit 'Julian Scott'" this building?

[bailey]

Seems to me that this on its own is enough to save the building. The ability to put 200,000 or more extra square feet on top of it makes it more valuable as is than it would be in if the building could not be expanded.

There are certainly other options. It will be interesting to learn how the DEGC is involved with any of this. Hopefully they are working to help the Penobscot owners find a way to improve their parking situation that doesn't involve tearing down a great building with a lot of potential and just as much history [[not to mention beauty).

If Detroit really needs more parking [[not just more information about parking or more street life to making walking more acceptable), then it seems that the lot behind the Detroit Club and the Free Press Building [[Fort@Washington) would be a great place to build a really sizable garage. It is only one block further.

If I owned the Penobscot buildings [[there are three, and I think they are all owned by the same group), I'd be looking to active that great lobby, even if it mean tearing some openings through it to connect it to the neighboring Penobscot Building [[1905) and Penobscot Annex [[1913). Tenants of the tower would then be able to walk inside to within a block of that parking [[or a number of other spaces).

At the same time, I'd imagine that some of the floors might be more appropriate to convert into residential. The parking demand [[spaces per assignable square feet) would be lower, and the residential is probably a little better right now.

I'd love to see some interior shots to get an idea of what it might look like used.

The "value" is imaginary. There is no demand for any more office/hotel/residential or retail space. That is demonstrated by crushing vacancy rates and abandonment rate of buildings in the CBD.

[bailey]

BTW, are the stock photo samples you see when you do a google image search of "Detroit 'Julian Scott'" this building?

Yes. That is it.

[downtownguy]

No.

What's been keeping folks from coming downtown all of these years is the fact that the folks that we want to come downtown [[those with money, suburbanites) until now couldn't have things their way.

Yet these same folks go to cities like NY, Chicago, Boston, SF, etc., and say they wish Detroit were more walkable like them. Much of this attitude comes from the older generation [[a generation I reluctantly admit I'm part of).

When I first moved downtown 30 years ago, I could see my generation [[at that time) was still carrying too much baggage from white flight, bigotry and their parent's attitudes about Detroit as its demographic changed. I began to accept that it would take a full generation for those attitudes to get washed away and see any real progress on downtown Detroit's comeback.

Thanks to folks like Gilbert, Karmanos and others, many of the new workers and residents downtown are younger. Rather than chase a generation of folks that are not likely to change, I'd rather see we develop Detroit to appeal to the demographic that will support it.