Detroit State Savings Bank Owner Wants to Demolish Historic Structure, Build Parking

[jtf1972]

Off the top of my head there are two surface decent size surface parking lots within one block of the Penebscot [[the lot on the northeast and the lot on the northwest intersection of Larned/Shelby). Those seem large enough for a garage. Hell, there is even that little inlet by the salad place on Congress [[though that must be too small for garage).

Maybe this owner should spend a little more money purchasing lots to make his investments worthwhile before he decides to destroy our history.

Bingo!

Also, the city should zone any new parking structures to include retail space on the street wall.

[DetroitPlanner]

Bingo!

Also, the city should zone any new parking structures to include retail space on the street wall.

This is already the case. Look @ the Book

[kenp]

Apostolopoulos estimated he would spend $20 million on a parking garage and create “lots of jobs.” -free press

Total BS
I would be amazed if this happens.

[Gistok]

Anyone with half a brain and who has been inside the beautiful classic marble interior of this building would be appalled with this idea.

This was designed by famous NYC architect Stanford White [[see famous scandal of 1906) of McKim Mead & White [[who designed NYC Pennsylvania Station and famous buildings around the country) and is downtown Detroit's only commission by that firm. The inside is a spectacular 2 story arched columned marble interior with a glassed in mezzanine along the 2nd story perimeter of the inside... the outside is a classic beauty.

It was built so strongly that a 20 story hotel tower was at one time planned to be built on TOP of it. And one of the reasons was... because the lobby is even more sumptuous than the inside of the Book-Cadillac.

When they brought the 2 solid marble 56,000 pound columns flanking the entrance in by barge in 1900, the weight of the columns collapsed a sewer line underneath it as horsedrawn teams were bringing them to the site.

Here is a Wiki article on the building...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard_Centre

If I had to rate beautiful downtown lobby spaces... this building's would be #3... after the Guardian and David Whitney Buildings...

[scottn55]

Not enough parking in Detroit?? Am I missing something?

[mikefmich]

Not enough parking in Detroit?? Am I missing something?

Seriously......what that owner said in the article is idiotic.

[Gannon]

It was built so strongly that a 20 story hotel tower was at one time planned to be built on TOP of it. And one of the reasons was... because the lobby is even more sumptuous than the inside of the Book-Cadillac.

Sounds like that is our solution. He has a structure strong enough for twenty more stories. Make many of 'em high-density parking, maybe a few a high-end hotel [[to use that spectacular lobby to full effect).


Plus, they've got a killer vault system in that building.

[jsmyers]

Anyone with half a brain and who has been inside the beautiful classic marble interior of this building would be appalled with this idea.

...

It was built so strongly that a 20 story hotel tower was at one time planned to be built on TOP of it. And one of the reasons was... because the lobby is even more sumptuous than the inside of the Book-Cadillac.

...

If I had to rate beautiful downtown lobby spaces... this building's would be #3... after the Guardian and David Whitney Buildings...

Seems to me that this on its own is enough to save the building. The ability to put 200,000 or more extra square feet on top of it makes it more valuable as is than it would be in if the building could not be expanded.

There are certainly other options. It will be interesting to learn how the DEGC is involved with any of this. Hopefully they are working to help the Penobscot owners find a way to improve their parking situation that doesn't involve tearing down a great building with a lot of potential and just as much history [[not to mention beauty).

If Detroit really needs more parking [[not just more information about parking or more street life to making walking more acceptable), then it seems that the lot behind the Detroit Club and the Free Press Building [[Fort@Washington) would be a great place to build a really sizable garage. It is only one block further.

If I owned the Penobscot buildings [[there are three, and I think they are all owned by the same group), I'd be looking to active that great lobby, even if it mean tearing some openings through it to connect it to the neighboring Penobscot Building [[1905) and Penobscot Annex [[1913). Tenants of the tower would then be able to walk inside to within a block of that parking [[or a number of other spaces).

At the same time, I'd imagine that some of the floors might be more appropriate to convert into residential. The parking demand [[spaces per assignable square feet) would be lower, and the residential is probably a little better right now.

I'd love to see some interior shots to get an idea of what it might look like used.

[bailey]

Seems to me that this on its own is enough to save the building. The ability to put 200,000 or more extra square feet on top of it makes it more valuable as is than it would be in if the building could not be expanded.

There are certainly other options. It will be interesting to learn how the DEGC is involved with any of this. Hopefully they are working to help the Penobscot owners find a way to improve their parking situation that doesn't involve tearing down a great building with a lot of potential and just as much history [[not to mention beauty).

If Detroit really needs more parking [[not just more information about parking or more street life to making walking more acceptable), then it seems that the lot behind the Detroit Club and the Free Press Building [[Fort@Washington) would be a great place to build a really sizable garage. It is only one block further.

If I owned the Penobscot buildings [[there are three, and I think they are all owned by the same group), I'd be looking to active that great lobby, even if it mean tearing some openings through it to connect it to the neighboring Penobscot Building [[1905) and Penobscot Annex [[1913). Tenants of the tower would then be able to walk inside to within a block of that parking [[or a number of other spaces).

At the same time, I'd imagine that some of the floors might be more appropriate to convert into residential. The parking demand [[spaces per assignable square feet) would be lower, and the residential is probably a little better right now.

I'd love to see some interior shots to get an idea of what it might look like used.

The "value" is imaginary. There is no demand for any more office/hotel/residential or retail space. That is demonstrated by crushing vacancy rates and abandonment rate of buildings in the CBD.

[jsmyers]

The "value" is imaginary. There is no demand for any more office/hotel/residential or retail space. That is demonstrated by crushing vacancy rates and abandonment rate of buildings in the CBD.

I didn't mean value as in private economic value in the short term, but rather, in long term historical value. It is harder to justify the demolition of a historical building when it has the ability to be used for something productive in the future. As opposed to the the American Beauty Building for example.

I believe you are quite wrong about residential vacancy, hence the second part of my post.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...-in-demand.php

[WaCoTS]

If I had to rate beautiful downtown lobby spaces... this building's would be #3... after the Guardian and David Whitney Buildings...

i would have to have the Old Wayne County Blg in that top 3 list somewhere [[and you would have to exclude theatres from the list, otherwise it would be all theaters).

having not seen the interior of this bank, i dont know how to rank it, but if it's anything at all like old Pennsy Station in NYC, then it is easily amongst the top 3 as well.


solution to this problem:
mass transit and underground parking. no further discussion required.

as already mentioned, the blank scar tissue where Hudson's used to be--it's time to actually use that for something. it is an underground garage already, with obvious provisions for building upward. why not make it the world's tallest parking garage, and the tallest building in Detroit? why not make it a dadaistic statement about our fetish with the automobile and a monument to Detroit's insanity? a 100-story parking garage casting a long shadow over the RenCen--now THAT would be something...almost North Korean... LOL then with those huuuuge sides, you could plaster MetroPCS and MGM Grand billboards all down the sides of it. 'MERICA!!

[canuck]

i would have to have the Old Wayne County Blg in that top 3 list somewhere [[and you would have to exclude theatres from the list, otherwise it would be all theaters).

having not seen the interior of this bank, i dont know how to rank it, but if it's anything at all like old Pennsy Station in NYC, then it is easily amongst the top 3 as well.


solution to this problem:
mass transit and underground parking. no further discussion required.

as already mentioned, the blank scar tissue where Hudson's used to be--it's time to actually use that for something. it is an underground garage already, with obvious provisions for building upward. why not make it the world's tallest parking garage, and the tallest building in Detroit? why not make it a dadaistic statement about our fetish with the automobile and a monument to Detroit's insanity? a 100-story parking garage casting a long shadow over the RenCen--now THAT would be something...almost North Korean... LOL then with those huuuuge sides, you could plaster MetroPCS and MGM Grand billboards all down the sides of it. 'MERICA!!

In a sense, the MCS is a monument to that insanity in the mass transit depletion category. You are right about the dadaist statement because that in real terms is a missing piece of the Detroit puzzle. Detroit seems to negate its past in many ways, choosing not to confront its demons in the racial, automotive, and sprawl departments. If a bit of humor, not a fist or a Robocop, but a monument to the folly you describe were to happen; who knows what direction the city would take. Might be a healing thing.

[Jason]

The Ford Building doesn't have dedicated parking and it's doing fine. Also, the Buhl Building, The Guardian Building, One Woodward Avenue, 211 West Fort Street, Chase Tower...

They're all managing. And so was the Penobscot Building until the recent management problems.


It's a shame that with the change in attitudes towards downtown that a guy like this is making decisions against the grain like this. It used to be that companies were downtown because they were always downtown and had just never moved. But nowadays, a company leases space in an office building downtown because they want to be downtown, in an urban environment. They choose to locate downtown, and they know that part of the deal is they have to walk a few blocks. I don't think this guy understands the strengths and weaknesses of this building and who he should be advertising it to.



This building is connected to a building across the street by a skybridge. Does he own that one too?

[Bham1982]

The Ford Building doesn't have dedicated parking and it's doing fine. Also, the Buhl Building, The Guardian Building, One Woodward Avenue, 211 West Fort Street, Chase Tower...

I think every one of those buildings, except maybe for the Guardian [[which is a govt. building, essentially) has dedicated parking.

I know the Buhl does, as my dad works there. They have a tenant agreement with an adjacent garage. Chase Tower has parking, as does 211 and One Woodward. I would assume the Guardian has some arrangement with a parking operator too.

I'm not saying a building has to have a direct in-house garage. Obviously the prewar buildings didn't have garages, since cars weren't the norm.

[Jason]

I think every one of those buildings, except maybe for the Guardian [[which is a govt. building, essentially) has dedicated parking.

I know the Buhl does, as my dad works there. They have a tenant agreement with an adjacent garage. Chase Tower has parking, as does 211 and One Woodward. I would assume the Guardian has some arrangement with a parking operator too.

I'm not saying a building has to have a direct in-house garage. Obviously the prewar buildings didn't have garages, since cars weren't the norm.

211, Chase, and One Woodward do not have significant parking garages. The doors are for service vehicles, and maybe a handful of spaces.

The Buhl does have the building next door, but even if it was dedicated exclusively to the Buhl, it wouldn't be enough parking. So instead, either the building management itself, or the tenants have deals with various garages downtown, and most people have short walks to the office. This is what you do when you don't have dedicated adjacent parking.

Come to think of it, 211 West Fort has like three parking facilities. They have a tenant garage, directly below the building, an on-site surface lot for overflow, and a huge garage across the street

There's not a real parking garage under 211. It's mainly a service area. I think there's a limited amount of parking there [[unlike One Woodward Avenue, which is exclusively a service area). The surface parking outside is only a handful of spots. Across the street is the parking garage base of a separate office building, which 211 could possibly have an agreement with, but even if the entire garage was dedicated to 211 it still wouldn't be enough parking.


I wouldn't be opposed if a parking lot somewhere was upgraded to big parking garage [[actually it wouldn't be bad if the garage next to the buhl was extended to the surface lot behind it), but this is different.

[cramerro]

211, Chase, and One Woodward do not have significant parking garages. The doors are for service vehicles, and maybe a handful of spaces.

The Buhl does have the building next door, but even if it was dedicated exclusively to the Buhl, it wouldn't be enough parking. So instead, either the building management itself, or the tenants have deals with various garages downtown, and most people have short walks to the office. This is what you do when you don't have dedicated adjacent parking.



There's not a real parking garage under 211. It's mainly a service area. I think there's a limited amount of parking there [[unlike One Woodward Avenue, which is exclusively a service area). The surface parking outside is only a handful of spots. Across the street is the parking garage base of a separate office building, which 211 could possibly have an agreement with, but even if the entire garage was dedicated to 211 it still wouldn't be enough parking.


I wouldn't be opposed if a parking lot somewhere was upgraded to big parking garage [[actually it wouldn't be bad if the garage next to the buhl was extended to the surface lot behind it), but this is different.

I apprecaite the depth of your knowledge... I'd love to see all the parking studies you have done to determine that certain garages aren't enough parking for entire buildings.

First, a few facts... sitting looking at them from my office. First, One Woodward Ave does have parking underneath... not 10 levels but quite a bit. They make it work with vehicle lifts that allow stacked parking. Second, the Buhl owns the garage next to it, and the same security and management firm take care of it. Third, many people from 211 park in the building base garage across the street - drive up Washington any time of day and it's like a constant game of Frogger across the mid-block. In addition, nobody mentioned the 1/3 block deck built in the last few years across form American/Lafayette Coneys that attaches to the Dime Building, and the base to 555 Jefferson that is full of parking.

Now look at the list of buildings with attached/adjacent [[within 1/2 block) parking within 3 blocks of the Penobscot and compare them to the Penobscot. I'd say without excpetion that all of the buildings with attached/adjacent are doing much better than the Penobscot and even the Ford Building. In fact, they all are new/newer and/or have had major renovations, whereas the Penbscot just managed to repaint the window trim along Congress for the first time in years this week.

Sheesh, I'm not even making a case to tear it down... but damn get a clue!

My disclaimer here is that I am siding with BHam on this one, whereas I usually strongly disagree.

Now as for your statistics, the name of the game is not 'peak demand.' Nobody including the idiot who wants to destroy the beautiful building for a deck claims that he's doing it to satisfy all of the parking needs for his building, but there are a number of types of parkers that are important if you want to have good occupancy and profitable rent. Lawyers, officials, management... they all want parking very close, and will pay whatever price for it [[or pay high rent that comes with a few spots). In addition, many office renters want close/attached parking for thier clients. It is a big deal especially if you have clients in the burbs who drive downtown and want to have a good experience meeting with you - city hustle and bustle isn't for everyone. The Buhl garage is full every day - 8 stories of parking - and there is a steady stream of people in and out of it going to the Buhl, Ford, One Woodward, and Guardian. The Buhl, Guardian, and Ford all have $10 flat rate valet [[which I think the Penobscot does also along Fort Street) to supplement the garage.

Look, there is an element of "you can't have it both ways" here that I can appreciate. And, this one building is a key cog in the City's most dense, historic, intact office district. But let's be realistic about the current state of the Penobscot's offices and shops [[not so great) and the high value that office renters and customers place on conveient parking.

Realistically speaking, he has to go at least a block in any direction to find land to build a sizeable garage [[the small notch between Ford/Penobscot on Congress is too small). There are two quarter blocks at Shelby and Larned, a number on the other side of Lafayette, and one at Fort and Washington.

[antongast]

city hustle and bustle isn't for everyone.

If it's not for you then stay the fuck out of the city. You won't catch me up in Auburn Hills demanding that the entire city be demolished and rebuilt to suit my transportation and land use preferences.

[Jason]

I apprecaite the depth of your knowledge... I'd love to see all the parking studies you have done to determine that certain garages aren't enough parking for entire buildings.

Imagine how a big a one person cubicle is, and then imagine how big a parking space is. Take the overall volume of the building, take a decent chunk off [[to account for all the conference/lobby/bathroom/etc. space), and that's how big the garage has to be to accommodate all the cars. For an example, look at the size of the Compuware Building relative to its garage, and keep in mind how much of the Compuware building is the atrium.

The other buildings in the financial district have a small amount of underground parking, which soften the demand for parking elsewhere and provide good parking for guests but it's nowhere near enough to provide spots for all the office workers.


I'm definitely not disagreeing that parking is important, and if the Penobscot had a few underground spots of it own it would help out a lot. But I don't think the fate of the building is tied to having dedicated adjacent parking.



I've tried finding vacancy rates for the Penobscot Building from before the Northern Group bought the building. The only number I was able to find was 80% full in 1997, at $12-15 per square foot. Downtown's overall vacancy was 20% in that year.

He plans on renting for $10 per square foot, and downtown is 26% vacant. iirc he bought the building for $4 per square foot.

The building is currently half full. If he can keep the elevators working and the heat on I think he should be able to get it on par with other buildings downtown. And really, even if it's just poaching tenants from other buildings downtown I think he should be able to do it.

[DetroitPlanner]

The Ford Building doesn't have dedicated parking and it's doing fine. Also, the Buhl Building, The Guardian Building, One Woodward Avenue, 211 West Fort Street, Chase Tower...

The Buhl has its own garage. The Chase has underground access to the old Kennedy Square Garage. One Woodward has access to the Ford Auditorium garage. There is a garage across Washington from 211.

That being said this is one of my favorite spaces in Detroit's financial district. I am surprised that it is so underutilized.

The only reason Silvers closed was it was bought out by Staples for its customer list. Its obvious that it can't work for a bank or a office supply store anymore though I thought that Julian Scott was a good adaption, even though the company was so undercapitalized it wasn't even funny.

This building is a national landmark. The owner is Canadian and has no idea what he faces with this suggestion from preservation groups, or the dept of the interior. Canada in general has a worse preservation record than Detroit does. Its not an important part of its culture.

[hybridy]

se michigan seems to be stuck with this mentality of, "park my car for free and right through the front door". this is so delusional, and ultimately holding back the region. my company has a transit stipend, which covers most of my bus pass or 30% of monthly parking.

[401don]

This guy has no connection to Detroit or Pontiac other than to make a quick buck so when potential tenants say they want cheaper rent than they're paying in the burbs and the same adjacent parking he tries any way possible to give it to them.

I'm sure he could negotiate very inexpensive people mover rates for a period of a couple of years as was given to Blue Cross employees. He can certainly get creative if he looks around downtown but is probably doing these deals over the phone from Toronto.

[Bham1982]

Come to think of it, 211 West Fort has like three parking facilities. They have a tenant garage, directly below the building, an on-site surface lot for overflow, and a huge garage across the street.

[iheartthed]

Come to think of it, 211 West Fort has like three parking facilities. They have a tenant garage, directly below the building, an on-site surface lot for overflow, and a huge garage across the street.

...so if parking was truly what made real estate in downtown Detroit worthwhile then these buildings that you named should be booming, no?

I don't get Detroit's fascination with parking garages, especially in downtown Detroit. That's gotta be the absolute worse use of space in a region's core.

[Bham1982]

...so if parking was truly what made real estate in downtown Detroit worthwhile then these buildings that you named should be booming, no?

I don't think anything is booming in terms of office space anywhere in MI. My point is that owners think that parking is an essential tenant amenity. It's probably fair to assume that owners have a decent idea of tenant preferences.

[iheartthed]

I don't think anything is booming in terms of office space anywhere in MI. My point is that owners think that parking is an essential tenant amenity. It's probably fair to assume that owners have a decent idea of tenant preferences.

Well the owner should've bought an office park in the suburbs.