Another day, another fire.

[townonenorth]

One of Detroit's biggest problems is not knowing when to cut its losses. Why must there be a viable solution? I fear no true viable solution exists outside of the zombie survival theme park with a whole host of pre-participation waivers. [[Though I believe that solution was offered up in parody.) My initial inquiry hints at my solution- demolition for the greater good.

If you truly knew what I "look like" you would know that I too am an under 40 outsider who has invested thousands from my personal savings to improve my little neck of the woods.

Awfully long fingers to be pointing from Tampa. Come on up. Get your hands dirty. Pick up shit filled diapers off a site you're trying to improve.

Crowdsourcing the dynamiting of specific buildings of the plant could happen. I'd be in for a stick.

[Richard]

One of Detroit's biggest problems is not knowing when to cut its losses. Why must there be a viable solution? I fear no true viable solution exists outside of the zombie survival theme park with a whole host of pre-participation waivers. [[Though I believe that solution was offered up in parody.) My initial inquiry hints at my solution- demolition for the greater good.

If you truly knew what I "look like" you would know that I too am an under 40 outsider who has invested thousands from my personal savings to improve my little neck of the woods.

Awfully long fingers to be pointing from Tampa. Come on up. Get your hands dirty. Pick up shit filled diapers off a site you're trying to improve.

You have a point there because as Detroit is cutting their losses or some are in their minds there are other states that are more then happy to absorb those losses.

"It’s an opportunity that excites those who guide Ohio’s economic development efforts.

"The opportunity to attract new passenger rail car manufacturers to Ohio and expand the state's existing supply chain of rail car suppliers is yet another example of how Ohio can benefit from the historic federal investment in passenger rail. The development of multimodal transportation goes beyond the transformative nature the service itself can have on our cities and towns." said Lisa Patt-McDaniel, director of the Ohio Department of Development. "Ohio's existing manufacturing assets combined with its central location make it the perfect location for the business development that will be needed to support these federal investments.”

Indeed, the proposal comes literally on the heels of statements made just this week by USDOT Secretary Ray LaHood in Washington. ODOT Director and ORDC Commissioner Jolene Molitoris was on hand to hear those remarks. As Lahood was quoted by the Detroit Free Press: "More than 30 rail industry manufacturers and suppliers have promised to establish or expand their base of operations in the U.S. if they're chosen by the states to build America's new high-speed rail lines."

Molitoris went on to quote Lahood as saying: "I'll assure sure those investments in manufacturing help our most distressed communities in Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and elsewhere."

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/DIVISIONS...facturing.aspx

You see that is the difference while you amuse yourself inviting outsiders to town to collect shitty diapers and pointing figures without facts other states are encouraging and receiving jobs and growth,so I guess you can take real pride in knowing that the high speed trains in the run from Detroit to Chicago or the up coming street cars were quite possibly made in Ohio verses your fellow neighbors.

I am glad I do not pass judgement on a whole city based on a few of its representatives.

[jt1]

You have a point there because as Detroit is cutting their losses or some are in their minds there are other states that are more then happy to absorb those losses.

"It’s an opportunity that excites those who guide Ohio’s economic development efforts.

"The opportunity to attract new passenger rail car manufacturers to Ohio and expand the state's existing supply chain of rail car suppliers is yet another example of how Ohio can benefit from the historic federal investment in passenger rail. The development of multimodal transportation goes beyond the transformative nature the service itself can have on our cities and towns." said Lisa Patt-McDaniel, director of the Ohio Department of Development. "Ohio's existing manufacturing assets combined with its central location make it the perfect location for the business development that will be needed to support these federal investments.”

Indeed, the proposal comes literally on the heels of statements made just this week by USDOT Secretary Ray LaHood in Washington. ODOT Director and ORDC Commissioner Jolene Molitoris was on hand to hear those remarks. As Lahood was quoted by the Detroit Free Press: "More than 30 rail industry manufacturers and suppliers have promised to establish or expand their base of operations in the U.S. if they're chosen by the states to build America's new high-speed rail lines."

Molitoris went on to quote Lahood as saying: "I'll assure sure those investments in manufacturing help our most distressed communities in Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and elsewhere."

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/DIVISIONS...facturing.aspx

You see that is the difference while you amuse yourself inviting outsiders to town to collect shitty diapers and pointing figures without facts other states are encouraging and receiving jobs and growth,so I guess you can take real pride in knowing that the high speed trains in the run from Detroit to Chicago or the up coming street cars were quite possibly made in Ohio verses your fellow neighbors.

I am glad I do not pass judgement on a whole city based on a few of its representatives.

Exactly how does this have anything to do with the discussion about demolishing the Packard? You are implying that there are either valid uses for it or valid reasons it should remain standing. Would you care to share those reasons/uses with us as opposed to bringing in other, completely unrelated topics?

You are quick to dismiss everyone's opinion as ignorant or not helping but I have not seen one benefit the Packard does or can offer the city and the neighborhood.

[Richard]

Exactly how does this have anything to do with the discussion about demolishing the Packard? You are implying that there are either valid uses for it or valid reasons it should remain standing. Would you care to share those reasons/uses with us as opposed to bringing in other, completely unrelated topics?

The OPs topic was not about the demolishing of Packard,the question was can we the people go directly to the EPA and have them demolish the property side stepping all local and state protocols based on it is in some opinion that it is a health hazard.

In other words can private individuals use the government to demolish another private individuals property because they deem it a hazard.

I answered the question and provided facts as why it would not work.Forget about even going down the road of how wrong that train of thought is morally and the ramifications of what could happen if it could be done that way.

So I presented environmental that were performed at the request of the city when they thought they had ownership.
In a nutshell it says at that time the property was contaminated in lines with any other property of that vintage,ie considering its past use as an industrial facility it was in clean shape and a majority of potential contaminants were those that were placed after vacating by illegal dumping.

So now you want to go to the EPA and say this is a hazards site demolish it.The EPA is going say that when the past environmental were done it was not considered a health hazard but sense then you as a city have allowed it to potentially become one.

Why? Because every city and town across the country has those who dump illegally it is a problem everywhere the difference is other city's address and deal with the problem.
It may be something as simple as placing a camera in hot spots to catch the dumpers.So they have had the ability to address the problem and negligently have not addressed which makes the city accountable and liable for the trash clean up aspect,and not the federal government.

It is not my opinion or if it is it is based on facts and not as of being an armchair quarterback as accused.

[/QUOTE]You are quick to dismiss everyone's opinion as ignorant or not helping but I have not seen one benefit the Packard does or can offer the city and the neighborhood.[/QUOTE]

If you do not see one benefit the Packard does or can offer the city then you are not looking,or not seeing what you are looking at and I do not mean that in a disrespectful way.

My view is based on facts that have been acquired over a two year period with thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours being spent on it,in a city that I have not ever been to.

Why? Because it does not matter weather I go there at this point or not,I took a calculated risk and the city has nothing different then any other inner city.The rest is numbers and research which I can do from anywhere in the world without visiting.It is called due diligence and it is based on facts and not arm chair quarterbacking.

Richard is my real name and at least I took the time to get to know through your eyes the past couple of years the real facts about a city that I was told not to worry about because it was not worth investing in.

Discuss anymore about future possible plans for the Plant here?
I think it may be best not to because as evidenced here there are to many passions that get in the way of intelligent conversation and facts get distorted,it is probably best to be like others which is to do what I am going to do and say nothing which becomes a catch 22 because to pull something off like this you need the support from the city and state, which was when asked for,about the same result as this thread.

[hamtown mike]

... based on it is in some opinion that it is a health hazard.

69,000 parts per million [[Pb) is not an opinion, it is a hazard. Tiles containing 40% asbestos, when set ablaze or exposed to rain, again, not an opinion.

[/QUOTE]...a majority of potential contaminants were those that were placed after vacating by illegal dumping.[/QUOTE]

Since some potential contaminants were dumped illegally should we simply ignore them?

The 1997 report [[a 3 page page report on a 35 acre site) repeatedly used the phrase "repaired or demolished." Neither of these recommendations have been acted upon. That's 15 years of collapsing rooftops. 15 years of scrappers "cooking" their bounty- leaving behind plastic and rubber slag. 15 years of structural fires. 15 years of "unaccessible 50 gallon drums" left to leak, 15 years of rain water soaking through the exposed and roofless structures leaching contaminants into the soil. In short, 15 years of further environmental and structural degradation on top of a report listing demolition as a recommendation.

Is it acceptable to allow citizens, who may have never even seen the Packard, to be repeatedly exposed to these airborne toxins while the "who's responsible" debate drags on?

[/QUOTE]So now you want to go to the EPA and say this is a hazards site demolish it.The EPA is going say that when the past environmental were done it was not considered a health hazard but sense then you as a city have allowed it to potentially become one.[/QUOTE]

Would the EPA really say "Tough shit!" to the people of Detroit? The mission of the EPA is to protect human health and the environment- to ensure that all Americans are protected from significant risks to human health and the environment where they live, learn and work. No matter who is responsible for the current state of the site, it is, in my opinion, an ideal candidate for EPA consideration.

The EPA does have, or at least had, this authority. In 1983, a small town near my hometown of St. Louis, Times Beach, was bought out by the EPA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Beach,_Missouri


[/QUOTE]...to do what I am going to do...[/QUOTE]

This is the first mention of any specific plans that you have for the 35 acre site. I hope your numbers are right. I hope your math is sound. Hell, I hope the things I've read and the opinions I have formed are incorrect. I can only speak for myself when I say that I welcome you and your efforts with open arms.

Unfortunately, Detroit is not in a position to look at what could be. We have to deal with what is. Sadly, we can barely keep the lights on. While the theoretical battle of shoulda/woulda/coulda wages, people, real people, are being exposed to nasty nasty stuff. That is why I made my inquiry about reaching out to a higher authority to address the issue.

I believe the core of our disagreement lies in a difference in opinion regarding the condition of the site and feasibility of reuse. Forgive me if previous posts have appeared to contain personal attacks-certainly not the intent. I have been questioning your opinions, not you.

I would like to extend an invitation for you to come and visit. Should you choose to accept the invitation I would gladly play host and help you check off "site visit"-one of the most rudimentary elements of due diligence. [[Of course not crossing onto private property)

[Islandman]

Richard,

You are making a lot of assumptions about what people in this city have done at the Packard.

You dismiss our concerns about the current state of the site with "you people dumped on it, and the EPA said it's not that bad."

You say it's private property owned by "someone", yet that same "someone" has not made any efforts to secure the site from illegal dumpers, preserve it for future use or investment, or maintain it in any way, shape or form.

Yet, we [[and by we, I mean the city of Detroit) are supposed to honor the fact that a 35 acre site is private property, and it should not be dealt with federally by the EPA because someone owns it, and that's unilaterally important.

Right.

I wonder: How many times have the "owner/s" of the Packard shown up when their fucking private property has been in flames? Never.

[Richard]

Richard,

You are making a lot of assumptions about what people in this city have done at the Packard.

You dismiss our concerns about the current state of the site with "you people dumped on it, and the EPA said it's not that bad."

You say it's private property owned by "someone", yet that same "someone" has not made any efforts to secure the site from illegal dumpers, preserve it for future use or investment, or maintain it in any way, shape or form.

Yet, we [[and by we, I mean the city of Detroit) are supposed to honor the fact that a 35 acre site is private property, and it should not be dealt with federally by the EPA because someone owns it, and that's unilaterally important.

Right.

I wonder: How many times have the "owner/s" of the Packard shown up when their fucking private property has been in flames? Never.

Lets break this down abit.

"You are making a lot of assumptions about what people in this city have done at the Packard."

You dismiss our concerns about the current state of the site with "you people dumped on it, and the EPA said it's not that bad."

I do not need to assume ,I am well aware of the state it is in ,and actually am quite amazed that it contains super powers,where else in the world are you going to find a building that grows its own piles of tires,piles of trash,where sledge hammers come flying out of nowhere and knock out bricks so trucks that mysteriously appear from nowhere can fall off of the roof,or gallons of paint mysteriously fall from the sky and adorn pretty much every square inch.Calls for a visit from the pope maybe?

You are correct I have no clue so can you please inform me as to how everything got there and how so much spontaneous combustion occurs weekly with total disregard to the firemen or yes even fellow residents.

Maybe it is people sneaking over on the train from Canada in a plot to take over the city.

Nobody has or few have a problem entering the property and using for their enjoyment but has anybody ever carried a bag of trash out with them? I do not think so.Why ? because it is not their problem.

I do not dismiss your concerns about what is happening but once again the question was raised if the EPA can be used to do the clean up.

The toxic chemicals are being dispersed by others causing the fires not only does it not qualify as a Superfund site it is not the EPA job to put out fires.

The city created the mess [[search function keyword Packard)
certain residents both city and suburb and out of town visitors daily visit the place and add more to the mess and destruction the mess does not grow on its own.

"You say it's private property owned by "someone", yet that same "someone" has not made any efforts to secure the site from illegal dumpers, preserve it for future use or investment, or maintain it in any way, shape or form."

Given the condition that many of the buildings are in the city that pretty much covers half of the city.Seems to me demolishing Packard is not going to solve any problems because the reason that it is in the shape it is in goes way deeper then bricks and mortar.

It would cost $137,000 per year for 1 security guard on duty 24-7. So every property owner and home owner should pay those additional funds on top of their taxes to ensure the laws are enforced?

You are as aware as I am that the city is low on funds and has a problem enforcing the laws so it is kinda hard to add that expense or degrade a property owner for not securing their property,and lets be realistic even buildings that are secured with support groups watching them are being stripped,so who even knows what the answer is there.

"Yet, we [[and by we, I mean the city of Detroit) are supposed to honor the fact that a 35 acre site is private property, and it should not be dealt with federally by the EPA because someone owns it, and that's unilaterally important. "

It is clear that honor is not a priority,that has nothing to do with it,EPA has protocols that have to be followed and the use of the federal government by private citizens to demolish is dangerous territory.

You can call them or register a complaint or open a case but they are going to look at the study I provided in the link and make their decision,the newspaper did a piece on the massive amount of lead in Detroit neighborhoods how is that going? Like I said earlier the environmental on the globe building property is equal to the Packard plant x 1000 is the EPA there? Call them have them tear it down,where does it stop?

How about placing a phone call or email a day to your state legislator that has bills in front of them to prevent a lot of this from happening in the first place as we can go on forever about past evils or the whys hows and what ifs.Get ahead of the game first using the tools that are in front of you because it does not matter how many buildings you demolish or even how you go about it until you get to the base of the problem you will beat yourself and frustrate yourself to death and it will never end.

[Islandman]

You seem quite keen on letting all of these property owners off the hook. Comparing a house or a building to a 35 acre site is a stretch.

American Axle seems to be doing quite well providing security at its property and no one has started artsifying the place just yet.

Thanks for the response.

[jt1]

Lets break this down abit.

"You are making a lot of assumptions about what people in this city have done at the Packard."

You dismiss our concerns about the current state of the site with "you people dumped on it, and the EPA said it's not that bad."

I do not need to assume ,I am well aware of the state it is in ,and actually am quite amazed that it contains super powers,where else in the world are you going to find a building that grows its own piles of tires,piles of trash,where sledge hammers come flying out of nowhere and knock out bricks so trucks that mysteriously appear from nowhere can fall off of the roof,or gallons of paint mysteriously fall from the sky and adorn pretty much every square inch.Calls for a visit from the pope maybe?

You are correct I have no clue so can you please inform me as to how everything got there and how so much spontaneous combustion occurs weekly with total disregard to the firemen or yes even fellow residents.

Maybe it is people sneaking over on the train from Canada in a plot to take over the city.

Nobody has or few have a problem entering the property and using for their enjoyment but has anybody ever carried a bag of trash out with them? I do not think so.Why ? because it is not their problem.

I do not dismiss your concerns about what is happening but once again the question was raised if the EPA can be used to do the clean up.

The toxic chemicals are being dispersed by others causing the fires not only does it not qualify as a Superfund site it is not the EPA job to put out fires.

The city created the mess [[search function keyword Packard)
certain residents both city and suburb and out of town visitors daily visit the place and add more to the mess and destruction the mess does not grow on its own.

"You say it's private property owned by "someone", yet that same "someone" has not made any efforts to secure the site from illegal dumpers, preserve it for future use or investment, or maintain it in any way, shape or form."

Given the condition that many of the buildings are in the city that pretty much covers half of the city.Seems to me demolishing Packard is not going to solve any problems because the reason that it is in the shape it is in goes way deeper then bricks and mortar.

It would cost $137,000 per year for 1 security guard on duty 24-7. So every property owner and home owner should pay those additional funds on top of their taxes to ensure the laws are enforced?

You are as aware as I am that the city is low on funds and has a problem enforcing the laws so it is kinda hard to add that expense or degrade a property owner for not securing their property,and lets be realistic even buildings that are secured with support groups watching them are being stripped,so who even knows what the answer is there.

"Yet, we [[and by we, I mean the city of Detroit) are supposed to honor the fact that a 35 acre site is private property, and it should not be dealt with federally by the EPA because someone owns it, and that's unilaterally important. "

It is clear that honor is not a priority,that has nothing to do with it,EPA has protocols that have to be followed and the use of the federal government by private citizens to demolish is dangerous territory.

You can call them or register a complaint or open a case but they are going to look at the study I provided in the link and make their decision,the newspaper did a piece on the massive amount of lead in Detroit neighborhoods how is that going? Like I said earlier the environmental on the globe building property is equal to the Packard plant x 1000 is the EPA there? Call them have them tear it down,where does it stop?

How about placing a phone call or email a day to your state legislator that has bills in front of them to prevent a lot of this from happening in the first place as we can go on forever about past evils or the whys hows and what ifs.Get ahead of the game first using the tools that are in front of you because it does not matter how many buildings you demolish or even how you go about it until you get to the base of the problem you will beat yourself and frustrate yourself to death and it will never end.

It would have saved your keyboard al lot of activity if you just stated that you don't give a damn about the people that live near the Packard.

Your ignorance of the situation and the impact on the neighboring residents is appalling. You dismiss the real impact it has on their lives because the city has [[a) additional vacant properties [[b) additional toxic buildings and [[c) the residents are poor.

If you can't see how big of an ass you are being there is really no hope in discussing this with you. Of course you can share your grand plans for the place or what role you have in the Packard because you certainly have no concern for the well being of the actual residents of the city.

[jt1]

Additionally, I find it sad and rather naive to pretty much state that the people in the city and specifically the residents in this area need to deal with the state of the Packard since they must have been a part of the damage.

The reality is that the damange is caused by city residents, suburban residents, out of state and even out of country residents.

If you don't realize how condscending you are being then it is just best to end the conversation. In the meantime I'll hold my breath waiting for you to reveal the plans/vision that are so wonderful that tearing it down would be a net negative to the residents and the city.

[Richard]

This is the first mention of any specific plans that you have for the 35 acre site. I hope your numbers are right. I hope your math is sound. Hell, I hope the things I've read and the opinions I have formed are incorrect. I can only speak for myself when I say that I welcome you and your efforts with open arms.

Unfortunately, Detroit is not in a position to look at what could be. We have to deal with what is. Sadly, we can barely keep the lights on. While the theoretical battle of shoulda/woulda/coulda wages, people, real people, are being exposed to nasty nasty stuff. That is why I made my inquiry about reaching out to a higher authority to address the issue.

I believe the core of our disagreement lies in a difference in opinion regarding the condition of the site and feasibility of reuse. Forgive me if previous posts have appeared to contain personal attacks-certainly not the intent. I have been questioning your opinions, not you.

I would like to extend an invitation for you to come and visit. Should you choose to accept the invitation I would gladly play host and help you check off "site visit"-one of the most rudimentary elements of due diligence. [[Of course not crossing onto private property)

I understand the frustrations I am frustrated as well because I see what is happening and actually was set to start last year but those at the city level still seem to hold past grudges as well ,so it is frustrating to me to be in a position to help and make a difference but yet deal with a city bureaucracy that seems not to care about the person in the street level.The only thing I can do is regroup and try another angle of attack.

I thank you for your invitation of hospitality and hopefully soon enough I will be able to take you up on it,I have met others through emails and maybe we all can grab some atvs or golf carts [[I am "old") and explore in comfort and have some fun at it anyways and have a few beers afterwards.

The whole purpose was for a rail facility light and heavy although it is considered heavy industrial I think it is a good fit considering that all the suppliers are there already locally where other locations suppliers would have to be established ,so it would be an all around benefit. The best part is Khan and Associates are still around to continue on what their ancestors started on in the additions of a couple of finial assembly buildings.

Unfortunately there is no real in your face answer today as to how to eliminate the problems it is a lot of hard work with a stacked deck I try and stay optimistic and I realize there is still along ways to go but you really do need to give yourselves some credit you have come a long ways in a short amount of time I know it does not seem like it but next year a lot of it will be paying off.

[Richard]

It would have saved your keyboard al lot of activity if you just stated that you don't give a damn about the people that live near the Packard.

Your ignorance of the situation and the impact on the neighboring residents is appalling. You dismiss the real impact it has on their lives because the city has [[a) additional vacant properties [[b) additional toxic buildings and [[c) the residents are poor.

If you can't see how big of an ass you are being there is really no hope in discussing this with you. Of course you can share your grand plans for the place or what role you have in the Packard because you certainly have no concern for the well being of the actual residents of the city.

Well,let me see what my options are.

City A says if you locate here we will give you X amount of land to build on ,X amount of tax incentives and credits to help you get started and we will even throw in some education training for the employees.

Then there is Detroit and what does she offer?
2.2 million sqft of a dilapidated trashed out building that is going to cost millions in time and money to even get in shape before one thing can be manufactured.Nothing more or nothing less.

So common sense would dictate that if I did not care about the city or the east side this discussion would not even be happening.

[jt1]

Well,let me see what my options are.

City A says if you locate here we will give you X amount of land to build on ,X amount of tax incentives and credits to help you get started and we will even throw in some education training for the employees.

Then there is Detroit and what does she offer?
2.2 million sqft of a dilapidated trashed out building that is going to cost millions in time and money to even get in shape before one thing can be manufactured.Nothing more or nothing less.

So common sense would dictate that if I did not care about the city or the east side this discussion would not even be happening.

Common sense is a fickle thing. I guess it depends upon what you define as being a core component of the city. You are advocating for a reuse of a building [[which in its own right is a great thing) but you are doing it with no consideration of the impacted residents.

To me, the most important thing about a city is the welfare of the citizens. Although I love old architecture and history I am not willing to think it is a great thing to continue subjecting the residents of the area to the Packard’s dangers whether it be scavengers, ruin porn tourists, rats and other rodents, etc in the hopes that something may be done one day.

It seems to me that you are advocating leaving the building as is in the hopes something may come to fruition. My question to you is: How long of a time are you willing to subject the people of the area to the Packard in the hopes your plan comes to fruition? One year, maybe that's reasonable but it appears that you are willing to ask the people to deal with the ill effects of it for eternity in the hopes something may happen.

At what point do the citizens have the right to ask for help in eliminating this blight in their neighborhood? When does common sense dictate that the Packard, in its current shape. coupled with hope that something may happen there is better for the residents than having it gone?

To me, common sense dictates that one’s concern should be with people first and history/architecture second. I guess that’s where our ‘common sense’ differs.

You stated you are old. Assuming you have grandchildren, would you allow them to play in the area while a fire is raging at the Packard? If not, why would you expect others to suck it up and deal with it on a weekly basis.

You may believe your intentions are sincere but at the end of the day 'intentions' are about as helpful as a bag of dog poop. The difference is, you don't deal with the huge bag of flaming dog poop that is the Packard while sitting at home in Tampa.

[Richard]

You seem quite keen on letting all of these property owners off the hook. Comparing a house or a building to a 35 acre site is a stretch.

American Axle seems to be doing quite well providing security at its property and no one has started artsifying the place just yet.

Thanks for the response.

I am not the cause of the ills,but like I already posted there are bills in front of your legislators that concern scrapping and accountability for vacant building owners by contacting them and voicing your frustrations with them is where you will get the best results.It does not bother me that you are venting with me,it is okay.But also remember that there are those in Lansing that need to hear your voice also.

[jt1]

I am not the cause of the ills,but like I already posted there are bills in front of your legislators that concern scrapping and accountability for vacant building owners by contacting them and voicing your frustrations with them is where you will get the best results.It does not bother me that you are venting with me,it is okay.But also remember that there are those in Lansing that need to hear your voice also.

Nobody is accusing of being the cause of the ills. People are rightfully frustrated that you are saying there are limited or no ills when it comes to the Packard and that it should not be torn down as it is not a quality of life issue for those in the neighboring area.

[Richard]

Common sense is a fickle thing. I guess it depends upon what you define as being a core component of the city. You are advocating for a reuse of a building [[which in its own right is a great thing) but you are doing it with no consideration of the impacted residents.

To me, the most important thing about a city is the welfare of the citizens. Although I love old architecture and history I am not willing to think it is a great thing to continue subjecting the residents of the area to the Packard’s dangers whether it be scavengers, ruin porn tourists, rats and other rodents, etc in the hopes that something may be done one day.

It seems to me that you are advocating leaving the building as is in the hopes something may come to fruition. My question to you is: How long of a time are you willing to subject the people of the area to the Packard in the hopes your plan comes to fruition? One year, maybe that's reasonable but it appears that you are willing to ask the people to deal with the ill effects of it for eternity in the hopes something may happen.

At what point do the citizens have the right to ask for help in eliminating this blight in their neighborhood? When does common sense dictate that the Packard, in its current shape. coupled with hope that something may happen there is better for the residents than having it gone?

To me, common sense dictates that one’s concern should be with people first and history/architecture second. I guess that’s where our ‘common sense’ differs.

You stated you are old. Assuming you have grandchildren, would you allow them to play in the area while a fire is raging at the Packard? If not, why would you expect others to suck it up and deal with it on a weekly basis.

You may believe your intentions are sincere but at the end of the day 'intentions' are about as helpful as a bag of dog poop. The difference is, you don't deal with the huge bag of flaming dog poop that is the Packard while sitting at home in Tampa.

I guess the question would be is do you have a Packard problem or do you have a arson problem?

June 25 2012 firefighters spent the night putting out 16 fires on the east side alone ,what about that smoke?

So what happens after Packard is demolished okay no more fires there but those sixteen fires were not at Packard so what do you do ? Demolish every building that could potentially burn?

Packard may be a representative of the ills of the city but tearing it down is not going to solve the ills they will still all be there just in different buildings it apparently may bring personal satisfaction to some who think that it will solve all the problems but it will not.

I am glad that you guys care so much about the east side because I have found very few that actually do,especially at the city level. I am from the group that believes without strong supporting surrounding neighborhoods the downtown core is only going so far.

Most Packard threads will draw up to 6000 views but when the city charter post came up it was 2000 at best ,the new city charter is going to be a game changer for the neighborhoods,in the past there has been nobody to bring these issues to and no representation to keep things like this from happening get involved in that way no matter what happens with me and Packard you are still there and need to be involved to make changes.

[mauser]

Packard should be condemned. I know I know - that single piece of paper is EXPENSIVE!

Why does everyone keep babbling about "owners" ? That whole property - by law - belongs to Wayne County due to the complete lack of property tax payments for the last decade. By law the county must seize the property.

I dont care if they "dont want to", that is the law.

[Packman41]

Why does everyone keep babbling about "owners" ? That whole property - by law - belongs to Wayne County due to the complete lack of property tax payments for the last decade. By law the county must seize the property.

Guys, let’s get this stuff straight. The City is in a deadlock with the rightful owner.

There was another thread about the Packard Plant http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...s-thefts/page3 and here is the same answer I wrote there.


The CofD won’t do anything again, because they failed miserably the first time in the late 1990s. The owner cannot do anything because the CofD owes him a lot of money and the CofD won’t pay up. They are at a standoff right now.

Cristini is no boy scout and not a friend of mine, but in the late 1990s he had 90+ tenants in the Packard Plant before the CofD decided to use the DPD gang squad to forcibly remove all of the tenants and then they started to take sections of the building down. They took his property by force.

Here is a portion of a Detroit Free Press article you need to read and understand:
“In the late 1990s, the plant had scores of rent- paying tenants who stored their cars and boats there, operated small businesses and staged paintball war games inside the tattered warren of buildings that straddle East Grand Boulevard.

It was also a time when the city believed it had title to the property [[edit: they did NOT) through foreclosure for unpaid taxes. The state, meanwhile, planned to tear down the plant and remove hundreds of thousands of tires.

Cristini was collecting rents and managing the property. The city tried to evict him that fall, but he holed up inside while the city's gang squad stood guard.

In 1999, Cristini and his lawyers sued the city, saying it failed to give notice to mortgage holders when the city sought to foreclose on the property. Cristini's lawyers thwarted the state's demolition plans and launched what would become a decade-long legal battle.”

Yes, Cristini is a “shady” character, but the CofD caused this when used their police power to try and seize the property from him. However, several times, Cristini has won in court and at every appeal process. It has been rumored that an arbitrator sided with him and thought the CofD owed him a multi-million dollar settlement for illegally seizing his property.

So when Cristini’s real estate tax bill comes due he probably turns around and tells the CofD to “take it off the money YOU owe me.”

You can read more here:
http://www.propertytaxrights.com/ind...id=68:michigan

[mauser]

Guys, let’s get this stuff straight. The City is in a deadlock with the rightful owner.
You can read more here:
http://www.propertytaxrights.com/ind...id=68:michigan

It does not matter what Detroit is doing - it is the jurisdiction of the county to seize the property for no taxes. There is no need to know who doesnt own it when no tax has been paid on it. Wayne County owns it.

your link is broke.

[mauser]

I know many Detroiters have a hard time believing that Detroit is not its own nation, and that it resides inside of Wayne County and therefore property owners must yield to the larger authority. But its true - look at a map, its right there smack dab in Wayne County.

[Richard]

I know many Detroiters have a hard time believing that Detroit is not its own nation, and that it resides inside of Wayne County and therefore property owners must yield to the larger authority. But its true - look at a map, its right there smack dab in Wayne County.

With my dealings with it COD has the finial say in everything,Wayne county legal department directed all my inquiries to COD.I have to give them credit as they did go abouve and beyond to help with what they could verses the city.

COD is the finial say as to the Renaissance zoning.

COD has designated the entire area as a disinvestment area in their shrinking city plan making a target industrial zoning and tree farming.I believe they have also pulled the fire department from the area.

So I think it would be safe to say COD has the finial say as to what happens over there.

So really as far as the fires are concerned the COD would look at it like this,they are located in an industrial zone and they would really like the neighbors to move elsewhere anyways because basic city services are going to be pulled or cut back even more so I highly doubt they lose any sleep over what is happening over there.COD wrote off that area years ago.

So unless the existing neighborhoods form some kind of association and fast the only representation your are going to have there is somebody catering to industrial and farming concerns because in COD eyes the area is best served industrial and tree farming and not residential.

The quickest route here is to form an association and have a voice,if you look at the city budget last year the strongest neighborhoods that received their designated block grants etc. were the ones that formed their associations and applied for them.They are available they do not come up to your door and hand you a check you need to take the initiative because if you do not you can clearly see the results.