Panel: Detroit water, sewer department should cut 81% of workers to slow soaring rate

**bailey** · August-09-12, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It seems kind of silly to me to put so much blame on the workforce when 40 percent of the water department's expenses are debt service ... but, in this world, workers are always guilty until proven innocent, and bankers can't be touched at all ...

I dont think anyone is "blaming the workforce". THEY didn't hire themselves and I don't think anyone saying they do a shitty job. The "blame" is upon those that mismanaged it for so long and such great cost. Which is why many want it privatized. Get it out of the reach of local pols looking to find make work jobs for their cousins. Also, finding that the DWSD could work with 80% fewer workers is not the fault of the worker who took the job. Unfortunately, no matter how well you do your job, if there are 5 of you doing what it should only take one to do.... well, eventually 4 of you are going to be out of work.

**Detroitnerd** · August-09-12, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I dont think anyone is "blaming the workforce". THEY didn't hire themselves and I don't think anyone saying they do a shitty job. The "blame" is upon those that mismanaged it for so long and such great cost. Which is why many want it privatized. Get it out of the reach of local pols looking to find make work jobs for their cousins. Also, finding that the DWSD could work with 80% fewer workers is not the fault of the worker who took the job. Unfortunately, no matter how well you do your job, if there are 5 of you doing what it should only take one to do.... well, eventually 4 of you are going to be out of work.

Fair point. But I also question the study itself. Just as I question union spokespeople and figure, say, their statistics are a little bit favorable to their cause, I question chainsaw men who come in and declare 4 out of 5 workers aren't needed. Could there be some efficiencies? I'm sure there could. But notice how this is spun. We have to outsource work, ostensibly to bring Detroit into compliance with the Clean Water Act, even though this isn't about compliance, which will take decades and billions anyway. That's kind of sneaky. And a lot of contractors in the water business have lawsuits against them. [[See Pontiac's private water contractor.) Any "cuts" to control "soaring rates" are placed on the organization, on public work, on public ownership.

When does the department get to renegotiate with the bondholders? Never. Never, ever, ever.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-09-12, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I dont think anyone is "blaming the workforce". THEY didn't hire themselves and I don't think anyone saying they do a shitty job. The "blame" is upon those that mismanaged it for so long and such great cost. Which is why many want it privatized. Get it out of the reach of local pols looking to find make work jobs for their cousins. Also, finding that the DWSD could work with 80% fewer workers is not the fault of the worker who took the job. Unfortunately, no matter how well you do your job, if there are 5 of you doing what it should only take one to do.... well, eventually 4 of you are going to be out of work.

Anger at the 'bankers' is justified. I agree. It appalled me that the banks weren't allowed to collapse -- at least to where shareholders lost 100% of their money before anyone else. I do not buy the 'we need the best and brightest and must pay them wages and bonuses that are an order of magnitude greater than highly qualified people I know in business.

So I share your anger.

Bankers did not however, decide to get to hire their relatives into meaningless positions like 'horseshoer', nor did they create the laws that allowed highly fragmented, siloed jobs to multiply like rabbits.

No. This burden on the poor taxpayers of Detroit was done by their own city and their own elected officials. It likely goes back to Frank Murphy. Though the Irish, the Italians, and people of color. All adding up to rape of taxpayers.

Sure, some workers will lose their jobs. And many if not most will be good, qualified, competent, hard-working people. They also probably wish they could do more. The administrative bureaucracy and their Union prevent it.

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that these workers are paid for by taxpayers of Detroit and metro ratepayers. Many of them aren't rich. If we want success for Detroit, we must remove the 'fiscal rape' that is leaving Detroit behind in the dust.

The bankers and multi-nationals may be evil -- but that's outside Detroit's control. So in the meantime let's clean up our own house -- and create an efficient, competent City. That can be done. And that will help.

Save anger for the bankers for another day.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-09-12, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Motor City Sam

The horseshoe anecdote makes for a nice inflammatory example, but in the article I read today it was clarified that the employee was classified as both a welder and a horseshoer and welding is his/her main job. It's not like there is a guy sitting around waiting for a horse to come by to put a shoe on it. He is classified as a welder, his primary job, and so has another, outdated classification. I don't doubt that like most old organizations the WD has too many job classifications, but let's not act like they are employing people to shoe horses.

And public employee unions have been giving back in terms of wage concessions, head count, benefits, etc., for years now. We've seen plenty of 10% pay cuts accepted by unions in recent years, along with converting pensions to 401Ks, increased class sizes for teachers, etc. You say you'd like to see public unions suggest a fix that includes aligning costs with service; I've seen it happen often, especially in recent years.

And please show me where the union for water department workers threatened a strike over the suggestion that horse shoers are not needed. Otherwise, it's just exaggerated rhetoric designed to support the viewpoint that unions are intractable and unrealistic.

It is a nice inflammatory example -- but the author clearly intended it as a 'call to action'. Its not about this one job classification. Its about a system of administration and union negotiations that failed to remove 'horseshoer'.

It tells me a lot.

It tells me both union and management are asleep at the wheel.

It tells me it is a dysfunctional system.

It tells me that AFSCME and the administration don't mind such job classification.

257 job classifications.

By the way, this isn't against workers at all. This is against stupid, self-serving managment AND labor. Replace 'em both via Veolia for ten years -- then decide if the city is competent to put together a new DWSD.

Oh, and about that strike -- there was no need. The administration was just as willing as AFSCME to keep abusing taxpayers and ratepayers.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-09-12, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by internet_pseudopod

How can I trust any company that cant produce a proper report in pdf format?

Looks like the Freep made the PDF -- from a paper copy. Not the consultant. Judge them on their content please, not the skin of their document.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · August-09-12, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

How do you propose to run the system in the meantime?

90% of the work that goes on can be performed unmanaged.

**luckycar** · August-09-12, 09:05 PM

I worked with EMA in the early 2000 time frame.At my WWTP,Ann Arbor,we went from 3 job classifications to 1.I became an operator/machanic/lab tech.Our pay increased as we progressed thru the training.Being a few years from retirement,I thought it was a good plan to reduce the workforce while increasing the amount of work being preformed by those of us left.Of course our pay increased,and the union was ok with this.
We went from 35 people when I hired in in 1980,and had 24 when I retired in 2007.It was this or go private.At least this is how management and EMA presented it to us.
A few of my co-workers came from DSWD.Their stories would raise the hair on your neck,and pucker your wallets.Just my 2 cents.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · August-09-12, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

There is always room for improved efficiencies, but Detroit's water rates are NOT rising any faster than others around the country:
http://www.circleofblue.org/waternew...or-u-s-cities/

Further, DWS produces some of the best water in the country, and its sewage treatment has had fewer issues than, say, Chicago's or, even worse, Milwaukee's. The soaring rates are not the fault of the DSW, but rather of the municipalities who buy the water at a lower wholesale rate and jack up what they charge their citizens

Just because our rates our low compared to a few major cities does not mean that DWSD are allowed to be inefficient.

If positions can be reduced then it is up to management to reduce the numbers. If there are too many managers then the numbers of managers and supervisors should be reduced.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · August-09-12, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Motor City Sam

I'd like to know a bit more about this consulting firm and about what they were tasked to do before accepting their recommendations as gospel. Have they done this type of analysis for water systems before? What methodology did they use to come up with their suggestions? How did they get the contract to do this? Do they have connections to anyone in the area?

You can always go to their website and gather the information.

However, Water Authority of New York City has followed a similar model and only has a few hundred workers for Water system that provides water to a populace that triples Southeast Michigan.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · August-09-12, 09:17 PM

There is a tremendous savings to the City of Detroit in term of Legacy Cost and Health Care.

By eliminating 80% of the workforce, DWSD and the City of Detroit is eliminating future pension payouts.

Municipalities can no longer pay for Pensions. They are unsustainable.

Therefore, in order to reduce pension payouts for the future...Eliminate workers and hire Firms and Contractors. The firms and contractors will then pay workers what they see as appropriate. This will eliminate the burden of the City of Detroit to pay for Pensions and Health Care.

A very smart business move.

Shollin · August-09-12, 09:19 PM

I guess since I work at a bank I'm evil, but this isn't really the first time I heard that.

**Jimaz** · August-09-12, 09:49 PM

The latest bankster fashion statement:

Attachment 15081

**Scottathew** · August-09-12, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

There is a tremendous savings to the City of Detroit in term of Legacy Cost and Health Care.

By eliminating 80% of the workforce, DWSD and the City of Detroit is eliminating future pension payouts.

Municipalities can no longer pay for Pensions. They are unsustainable.

Therefore, in order to reduce pension payouts for the future...Eliminate workers and hire Firms and Contractors. The firms and contractors will then pay workers what they see as appropriate. This will eliminate the burden of the City of Detroit to pay for Pensions and Health Care.

A very smart business move.

I'm in total agreement here.

Eliminate pensions for all new employees and replace it with a 401k program and 401k matching. That way you can still help employees plan and save for retirement, provide an incentive for employees to save, and also eliminate all post-employment liabilities.

All the job classifications are sickening. The more "specialized" a worker is the more time that he or she gets to stand around waiting for other people to do work first. This is by design and exactly what the union wants, inefficiency that leads to higher labor costs, more employees, and more union dues.

I also blame the management and city for letting it get to this point.

I'd love to see the following:

1) Create a regional water authority
2) Have the regional authority purchase the system from Detroit
3) Have the regional authority privatize it

**internet_pseudopod** · August-10-12, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Looks like the Freep made the PDF -- from a paper copy. Not the consultant. Judge them on their content please, not the skin of their document.

Ah, well I know the Freep is technologically inept and wouldn't know what the letters OCR meant if you forced them to google search it at gunpoint. That being said looking at the thing is still giving me headaches and nosebleeds.

**eno** · August-10-12, 12:01 PM

You can listen to the EMA presentation on a recording of the Board of Water Commissioners meeting at http://www.dwsd.org/pages_n/video_ema.html

**Locke09** · August-11-12, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

You can always go to their website and gather the information.

However, Water Authority of New York City has followed a similar model and only has a few hundred workers for Water system that provides water to a populace that triples Southeast Michigan.

Their website http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/abo...ep_index.shtml

says they serve 9 million residents and they have 6000 employees. So, it sounds comparable. It is part of an organization with many divisions, including environmental. They even have a Bureau of Police and Security to protect their water supply.

**corktownyuppie** · August-11-12, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

The latest bankster fashion statement:

Attachment 15081

The question is, can I get it in cashmere, silk, and high-end denim?

**Wesley Mouch** · August-11-12, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Locke09

Their website http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/abo...ep_index.shtml

says they serve 9 million residents and they have 6000 employees. So, it sounds comparable. It is part of an organization with many divisions, including environmental. They even have a Bureau of Police and Security to protect their water supply.

Sucking water out of the Detroit River and Lake Huron and delivering it into a relatively sprawling city with wide streets and lots of overhead utilities is probably less work than maintaining reservoirs a few hundreds of miles away and dealing with water lines running underground in NY street.

NYC is rarely a good benchmark. I'd be more curious to see Milwaukee or Cleveland per capita spending and water rates.

**coracle** · August-11-12, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It seems kind of silly to me to put so much blame on the workforce when 40 percent of the water department's expenses are debt service ... but, in this world, workers are always guilty until proven innocent, and bankers can't be touched at all ...

I don't know what bankers have to do with the issue or why you want to touch them or where you got the idea that blame is being put on the workforce for the gross over manning. Otherwise I agree.
If over staffing is found to be practiced in other Public Departments a skeptic might draw the conclusion it was a form of high class welfare and a misuse of public money.

**rb336** · August-11-12, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

NYC is rarely a good benchmark. I'd be more curious to see Milwaukee or Cleveland per capita spending and water rates.

http://www.nrdc.org/cities/smartgrowth/cost/part2.asp interesting thing on cleveland's cdow rate structure

take a look at the data from circle of blue posted earlier

**Hermod** · August-11-12, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

When does the department get to renegotiate with the bondholders? Never. Never, ever, ever.

The bondholders are not the banks. The bondholders are individuals, pension funds, and insurance companies. These weren't loans that Detroit was forced into. Detroit asked for a loan and promised to repay the loan with interest.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-13-12, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

http://www.nrdc.org/cities/smartgrowth/cost/part2.asp interesting thing on cleveland's cdow rate structure

take a look at the data from circle of blue posted earlier

I like the idea of rates based on difficulty of serving customers, but the possibilities for politics might outweight the benefits.

Did not understand the 'circle of blue'.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-12, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The bondholders are not the banks. The bondholders are individuals, pension funds, and insurance companies. These weren't loans that Detroit was forced into. Detroit asked for a loan and promised to repay the loan with interest.

And when you lend somebody money, you take a risk.

That is why there is interest: To reward good risks.

Not all risks pay off. That's why there are rewards for taking good risks.

Except that we have set up systems where austerity gets enforced to protect the interests of lenders above all else.

That's not capitalism. That's not a free market. That's gangsterism.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-13-12, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

And when you lend somebody money, you take a risk.

That is why there is interest: To reward good risks.

Not all risks pay off. That's why there are rewards for taking good risks.

Except that we have set up systems where austerity gets enforced to protect the interests of lenders above all else.

That's not capitalism. That's not a free market. That's gangsterism.

One can believe is austerity [[or perhaps calling it responsible use of resources) and at the same time believe in stimulus [[government printing money to reduce the value of what you already have, in the interest of encouraging economic activity to increase the value of what you have at the same time).

I'd again encourage those who see only the evils of bankers to avoid using this as an 'all purpose' response to efforts to improve our efficiency.

If the DWSD is indeed overstaff, they should 'right-sized'. We can then debate whether the surplus could be best used elsewhere within the city -- if we have a surplus.

Printing money is the federal governments job -- not the city. This forum should focus on what the city can do best.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-12, 11:00 AM

I understand your point, Wesley. That said, the United States has become a society of two classes, with different rules for each.

For the rich: less oversight, fewer regulations, lower taxes, less accountability, generous support, subsidies, little to no prosecution.

For the non-rich: intensive surveillance, rigid laws, multiplying fees and burdens, absolute accountability, reduced support, fewer subsidies, and a lock-em-up mentality.

In light of these facts, there's really nothing wrong at all with viewing any and all events through this prism. The poverty at the local and state levels are directly related to the largesse for the few at the top. Pleas to "work with what we have" ignore the situation that keeps putting "what we have" in direr straits.