Sorry Detroit, your neighbors just don't like you.

[Bham1982]

The census numbers back it. Low income residents are leaving the city for better prospects. They're fed up with the crime and neighborhood conditions. Meanwhile, young and educated folks are moving here in droves and offset [[though not quite enough) the massive losses from the south and west sides.

This isn't what the Census reports.

The Census reports huge middle class losses for Chicago. The poor aren't leaving; it's the middle class [[of all races) that's leaving the city.

Generally speaking, poor people don't have a lot of choice in their housing options. They're often tied to neighborhoods because of family situations, Section 8 subsidies, and the like. They can't just buy some McMansion in the cornfields.

What you see in Chicago [[and most other Midwest cities) is that the middle class is fleeing in droves, the poor are staying, and there's a growing core population of post-collegiate types. Most of those post-collegiate types are out of the city once they marry and have kids.

[antongast]

Just like all of those SUVs out there are killing pedestrians.

The news always says, "SUV kills mother of six."

If not an SUV, it goes, "Mother of six killed by driver."

It never says, "careless and negligent mother of six stupidly jay walks into path of car."

What about this story? A transit-dependent woman was crossing the street with her son, trying to get from the bus stop to her apartment in a poorly-designed, car-dependent part of suburban Atlanta where there was no safe way for a pedestrian to cross the street, and her son was hit by a drunk driver and killed. The mother was charged with vehicular homicide, and the drunk driver was charged with a hit-and-run. You think pedestrians in car-dependent settings have it too easy? The law deals more harshly with sober transit riders than drunk drivers. Come on.

[wolverine]

This isn't what the Census reports.

The Census reports huge middle class losses for Chicago. The poor aren't leaving; it's the middle class [[of all races) that's leaving the city.

Generally speaking, poor people don't have a lot of choice in their housing options. They're often tied to neighborhoods because of family situations, Section 8 subsidies, and the like. They can't just buy some McMansion in the cornfields.

What you see in Chicago [[and most other Midwest cities) is that the middle class is fleeing in droves, the poor are staying, and there's a growing core population of post-collegiate types. Most of those post-collegiate types are out of the city once they marry and have kids.

Would you mind backing this claim showing losses by neighborhood? Also please present evidence young couples with children are leaving Chicago. I've heard otherwise and the city currently has a shortage of schools. I want you to present this since these are your claims.

Otherwise I do agree that te city lost population, so stop repeating that. Chicago is also on a lake, but not all of it, in case you didn't know.

[gnome]

Here is a newsflash: Chicago is nicer than Detroit and Toronto is nicer than Chicago. Nicer parks, nicer buildings, nicer everything.

They dont want to be Detroit, for good reason; heck, even Detroit doesn't want to be Detroit.

Deal with it. Don't be doing all that cobra neck, finger snapping, "don't you diss my house" crapola. Noone is buying it.

Wipe your own behind. Clean up your own mess and you'll be so tired you won't care what anyone sez'.

[313WX]

Here is a newsflash: Chicago is nicer than Detroit and Toronto is nicer than Chicago. Nicer parks, nicer buildings, nicer everything.

They dont want to be Detroit, for good reason; heck, even Detroit doesn't want to be Detroit.

Deal with it.

That pretty much sums it up...

[southofbloor]

Here is a newsflash: Chicago is nicer than Detroit and Toronto is nicer than Chicago. Nicer parks, nicer buildings, nicer everything.

They dont want to be Detroit, for good reason; heck, even Detroit doesn't want to be Detroit.

You know what though, one view from here in Toronto is that Detroit [[still) has really spectacular old buildings, amazing buildings way beyond the quality that we have here - and a beautiful downtown layout of boulevards and parks. I think Detroit is one of the more interesting places in north america right now because its architectural base has so much potential and a lot of people are working at repairing and building on that base.

A big part of Detroit emerging within the next decade as an important city again is going to be through leveraging the unique architecture of the place. The reason people are moving to the city is because it has so much beauty in it. But every major piece of architecture that gets demo'd [[Mark Twain Library, Mackenzie High School, Ford Auditorium, Lafayette Building, or even Wurlitzer Building, University Club, Charlevoix Hotel in potential demo by neglect) that could have been stabilized until a use was found reduces the impact this tool can have on drawing people back into the city, building a tax base and stabilizing the place. Security is a huge issue that has to weigh into this, but as an outsider I think Detroit's architectural history is its most valuable and underrated tool for rebuilding a city that people want to stay in and love.

[Danny]

For over 25 years Dr. Alonzo Fleming, A professor of sociology and Physics had written a book called the 'A Cure for Detroit' along with Cherise Fleming. Dr. Alonzo Fleming has did some extensive research about how Detroit became mostly African American filled with violent crime, political and regional corruption.

Segregation, xenophobia, union busting, restrictive covenants, real estate racial steering, 1943 race riots, 1967 riots, the election of Coleman A. Young has acclerated white flight to the suburbs or any other sucessful U.S. cities. However Dr. A. Fleming look at two main causes that lead to Detroit's woes. He starts with the battle of black vs. black [[ as in middle class blacks vs. the low-income blacks.)


In the time when Detroit was growing from stove making city to automobile making city. The earlier wave African Americans came to Detroit in the 19th Century via the Underground Railroad. Some went to Canada for total freedom others stayed and settled at the lower east areas from St. Antione Street to Mount Elliott St. from E. Jefferson Ave. to Gratiot Ave. in the area known as Black Bottom. Now fast forward to the beginning of 20th Century. Thanks to Henry Ford's 5 dollar a day wage. It lured thousands of first wave African Americans to Detroit.

Most of them first wave African Americans were from the 'house negro' mentality meaning that they loved their white masters. First wave African Americans brought along with them their middle class skills and built up shops and churches. Then a certian black man named Elijah Mohammed. [[ He was raised in Detroit's East Side before moving to Hamtramck.) founded the Nation of Islam [[known as the Black Muslim movement). Mohammed was busy gathering and converting the fewer middle class black Detroiters from Black Bottom to Paradise Valley and built Mosques increase education to fight segregation and observe the Pillars of Islam. First wave black Detroit Christians were also following that tactic, even when they are quite close to Indo-European Jews who were living long with middle income blacks.

When the second wave of African Americans came to Detroit following World War II. They came with very heavy hearts in their nature. Most of them came from a 'field negro' mentality meaning that they hate their white masters. They came to find work settle in Black Bottom-Paradise Valley and Del-Rey areas. Of course they mingle along the middle income Indo-European Jewish Detroiters that will assist and supplement their needs.

Then suddenly there was a religious clash to see who would convert second wave Black Detroiters. The Black Nation of Islam under the teachings of The Honorable Elijah Mohammed were opposed against fast growing Black Detroit preachers. Elijah claimed that if more African American families pool their fortunes into these growing black churches without its purpose, the result will be building more houses of worship that would treated as 'Masonic-Moose-Knights of Columbus' order in every corner of Detroit growing black community; rather than building a real church as in winning souls for Jesus Christ and collecting tithes and offerings to build hospitals, schools and feeding programs. E. Mohammed aslo warning Blacks that if whites leave Detroit, they would take their business with them. That's the reason why the black community in Detroit needs to be the that middle income civilized manner. Either you're in the Black Muslim Movement or Christian.


By the time in the mid 20th Century whites have started to leave to Detroit, they took their businesses with them. In the meantime the first wave of Black Detroiters who were in the Black Muslim Movement sought what fast growing black Detroit preachers and Christians are doing to black community. Black Detroit Muslims also sought what Black Detroit Christians are doing when they are in total community relationship with the Indo-European Jews. They Elijah Mohammed sent most of his follows to to Harlem, NYC and Chicago, Ill. [[E. Mohammed also move to Chicago to consectrate his movement while he ill.) He also wanted Black Muslims to keep an close eye on their next national minister named Malcom X. Elijah. Mohammed have a few Black Muslims stay around in Detroit Black community in which its getting more second wave Black Christian Detroiters.

It's 1967 violence has disrupted in a local bar in 12th Street and Clairmont and in hot summer night at 2pm. A riot against Detroit Police brutality spread through the west side like a wildfire from 12th Street to far as Grand River and McNichols and the east side from Mack Ave. to Alter Rd. near the Grosse Pointe Park border. This was caused by mostly second wave black Detroiters with their second generation with a few whites joining in.

After the riots, white flight has been acclerated for Detroit and suburbs. Coleman A. Young has became Detroit's great black hope. He was one of first wave black Detroiter that accepted racial insults. And He will take that mentality to Detroit City Government build a political system called 'Plantation Politics'. Mostly second wave Black Detroiters would accept Mayor Young's critique and cling to his feeble hope that is 'Plantation Politics' would save Detroit and make more Afrocentric before promoting diversification. First wave Detroiters would see Mayor Young's agenda as neutral. If he didn't do a good job in Detroit's political businesses and increasing regional growth, then they will follow the Indo-European Jews to their community setting.

Suddenly the lost white stability in Detroit lead to loss of regional world trade. Also global economic problems will lead to sudden collapse of the automobile industry. The second generation of second wave of Black Detroiters who stayed in the neighborhoods are suddenly come in contact with influx of gangs, drugs and other domestic violences. The first wave of Black Detroiters don't want to cope with these problems have started to move to suburbs. Oak Park, Southfield, Lathrup Village the later to Farmington Hills and West Bloomfield TWP. are the example of Middle income Black Detroit flight since the late 1970s to today.

[Danny]

Well into the late 20th Century while Detroit's population in a major decline. Many of its neighborhoods are being transformed from bedroom size 'keeping up with the Joneses community' into a instant low-income ghetto. While America's ecomony is staggerant. In Detroit the second wave black families even to their second generation are suffering! Most of them have lost educational values, their one time job is gone, some of them didn't get a decent college education. In the meantime the first wave middle income blacks, [[up to the second generation,) most of them are living in the suburbs to get away from the madness and mayhem from the doomed-to-be ghettoes coming from low and poor second wave to second generation Black Detroiter communities. Middle income blacks are still hanging on their jobs, their store ownerships. Even through some them have lost their jobs. They have the college education and the school trade training they need so they get a job right away with plenty of requirements.

Many low-income [[ soon-to-be poor) second wave to second generation Black Detroiters have to look other means for survival. Not only for unemployment benfits, but aslo applying for welfare and food stamps. Other low-income [[soon-to-be poor) second wave to second generation Black Detroiters will choose a life of crime or doing hard time in prision for their last resort.

In the meantime the Detroit City Goverment, its public schools, and rest of its city services are shrinking every year due to plantation politics. There are several protests but there were little or no change. This is becuase when more second wave to second generation of Black Detroiters were in working in Detroit city government since Coleman A. Young Administration, there was little or no plan being implented to tighten its budget. [[Take the D-DOT bus crisis in of 1976. Most of D-DOT busses were broken down all the time. People have to wait up to 3 hours for a D-DOT bus. The Detroit City Government and D-DOT board knew about the matter, the was no plan to have new busses out in the road.) It was until 1978 that D-DOT recieve new busses from USDOT! Today while Detroit still suffering financially its goverment still have to plan to implement its bugdet crisis and soon it could go broke. Their final 2 options filled for bankruptcy or go with an Emergency Manager.

This is Critique from Dr. Alonzo Fleming.

[illwill]

You know what though, one view from here in Toronto is that Detroit [[still) has really spectacular old buildings, amazing buildings way beyond the quality that we have here - and a beautiful downtown layout of boulevards and parks. I think Detroit is one of the more interesting places in north america right now because its architectural base has so much potential and a lot of people are working at repairing and building on that base.

A big part of Detroit emerging within the next decade as an important city again is going to be through leveraging the unique architecture of the place. The reason people are moving to the city is because it has so much beauty in it. But every major piece of architecture that gets demo'd [[Mark Twain Library, Mackenzie High School, Ford Auditorium, Lafayette Building, or even Wurlitzer Building, University Club, Charlevoix Hotel in potential demo by neglect) that could have been stabilized until a use was found reduces the impact this tool can have on drawing people back into the city, building a tax base and stabilizing the place. Security is a huge issue that has to weigh into this, but as an outsider I think Detroit's architectural history is its most valuable and underrated tool for rebuilding a city that people want to stay in and love.

I agree with you. Butyou'd be surprised by the amount of people who care less about the beautifullyarchitecture buildings of Detroit and other cities in favor of shiny new glassand steel towers. I've become numb to the amount of people who prefer new andshiny over classic details. It makes me sick to my stomach.



A mix is a nice balance and show of a growing city but Iagree with you. The classics give it the real flavor that these new cities justcannot compete with.

[wolverine]

I agree with you. Butyou'd be surprised by the amount of people who care less about the beautifullyarchitecture buildings of Detroit and other cities in favor of shiny new glassand steel towers. I've become numb to the amount of people who prefer new andshiny over classic details. It makes me sick to my stomach.



A mix is a nice balance and show of a growing city but Iagree with you. The classics give it the real flavor that these new cities justcannot compete with.

I'm kind of confused by that last statement. I mean, lots of American cities have older buildings to showcase. While the Guardian and Fisher buildings are probably my 2 most favorite pre-war buildings in North America, Detroit's skyscraper districts couldn't hold a candle to Los Angeles for example. It's perceived as a newer city, but has an incredible intact collection of ornate buildings that completely outnumber Detroit several times over.

Yeah, the neighborhoods aren't that great, but then if you look at neighborhoods in places like Cincinnati, Toronto, and St. Paul have a hell of a lot to show when it comes to amazing older building stock.

I guess what I'm trying to say is with the exception of some sunbelt cities, there are no "new cities to compete with."


As far as glassy new buildings go. They are developer driven. I recently went to a community meeting for a 1000' new office tower expected to go up soon. Zero tenants signed yet, but the building will be as flexible as modern office space can be. Essentially a glass box that tapers with height. Residents did groan so I guess the public does care. As soon as developers become interested in sinking extra money into trophy buildings, then I'm sure we could possibly see a revivalist movement in classical detailing.

But the current trend in major cities is evict all the tenants from older buildings, flip them to hotel or residential, then build modern glassy high-rises to attract new companies.

This is how a competitive global city does it. Balance preservation of the past with state of the art office space.

[artds]

To the people comparing Dertroit to Chicago, are you serious? Yes, people are still moving to Chi in large numbers despite the city's high crime rate because, guess what, Chi actually has numerous safe residential areas that can accomodate large numbers of people and are far removed from the areas with lots of violent crime. If you live in a safe residential area, you don't tend to care that crime is hapeningseveral miles away.

[iheartthed]

To the people comparing Dertroit to Chicago, are you serious? Yes, people are still moving to Chi in large numbers despite the city's high crime rate because, guess what, Chi actually has numerous safe residential areas that can accomodate large numbers of people and are far removed from the areas with lots of violent crime. If you live in a safe residential area, you don't tend to care that crime is hapeningseveral miles away.

Okay, so we'll put an asterisk next to Chicago's well above average crime rate and note that most murders happen in the poor neighborhoods... Just like every other city in America.

[wolverine]

Okay, so we'll put an asterisk next to Chicago's well above average crime rate and note that most murders happen in the poor neighborhoods... Just like every other city in America.

Wow, you finally got it. Congratulations! We've only been telling you this for how long?

[iheartthed]

Wow, you finally got it. Congratulations! We've only been telling you this for how long?

Okay, just remind the FBI to put in that footnote next year when they release the numbers.

[Bham1982]

Yes, people are still moving to Chi in large numbers despite the city's high crime rate because,

It's 2012, not 1950. Chicago hasn't had positive population growth in 60 years.

For the millionth time on this thread, people are NOT moving to Chi in large numbers. It has the second worst population loss in the U.S., after Detroit.

Again, out of 30,000 odd municpalities in the U.S., Chicago is #29999 and Detroit is #30000.

[313WX]

It's 2012, not 1950. Chicago hasn't had positive population growth in 60 years.

For the millionth time on this thread, people are NOT moving to Chi in large numbers. It has the second worst population loss in the U.S., after Detroit.

Again, out of 30,000 odd municpalities in the U.S., Chicago is #29999 and Detroit is #30000.

Chicago's metro area has nearly doubled in population since 1960 while Detroit's metro area has been more or less stagnant [[save a few thousand people).

[jpbollma]

Isn't the subject about the actual city though? The city of Chicago has garnered increasingly negative press and has seen population loss very consistently. I don't think we should root for any major city to fail. I am against urban sprawl. I hope Detroit can get a handle on it's problems and I wish Chicago could as well. NYC really goes against the grain in this respect. Their city planning has been fantastic.

[wolverine]

Okay, just remind the FBI to put in that footnote next year when they release the numbers.

Don't have to. The last places new residents and visitors are thinking of is Austin and Englewood...if they could even find those places. Again, it's a big city with lots of safe neighborhoods and a spatial organization of crime entirely different than Detroit's. It's a big factor in people's perceptions of safe places.

[iheartthed]

Don't have to. The last places new residents and visitors are thinking of is Austin and Englewood...if they could even find those places. Again, it's a big city with lots of safe neighborhoods and a spatial organization of crime entirely different than Detroit's. It's a big factor in people's perceptions of safe places.

So, that again raises the point that most irritates me about a Chicago politician saying stuff like "this isn't Detroit", a comment which many of you have fallen over yourselves to justify/explain away. Chicago itself has a ton of violent crime! Chicago doesn't need to look no further than its own neighborhoods for contrasts to the relative calm of the Mag Mile. It is already one of the nation's most violent cities, even if the violence isn't happening along the lakefront.

[Artistic]

Isn't the subject about the actual city though? The city of Chicago has garnered increasingly negative press and has seen population loss very consistently. I don't think we should root for any major city to fail. I am against urban sprawl. I hope Detroit can get a handle on it's problems and I wish Chicago could as well. NYC really goes against the grain in this respect. Their city planning has been fantastic.

Now thats real clear thinking.....why battle and argue who is better or where is the worst crime stats. Lets do our part to improve - where ever you are.

[Danny]

My family attendended the Old Mackenzie High School from the 1960s to early 1970s. Soon it will be demolished and a New Mackenzie Middle School will open. What to about Drew Middle School? Turn it into a Special Ed school.

[wolverine]

So, that again raises the point that most irritates me about a Chicago politician saying stuff like "this isn't Detroit", a comment which many of you have fallen over yourselves to justify/explain away. Chicago itself has a ton of violent crime! Chicago doesn't need to look no further than its own neighborhoods for contrasts to the relative calm of the Mag Mile. It is already one of the nation's most violent cities, even if the violence isn't happening along the lakefront.

It was a stupid thing for the alderman to say. But just as Detroit commands credit for what neighborhoods have improved, Chicago also deserves the same recognition. The reason why Chicago has shed so much stigma is because 2/3 of the city is intact, well kept, safe neighborhoods.

[illwill]

Two-thirds is a pretty high number. The Southside runs to 195th Street...I think. Much of the South side resembles Detroit. I would say 1/2 of Chicago is in good shape. For the most part, MOST of the Southside has been written off, just like the outer areas of Detroit. No need to sugarcoat Chicago. It's an AMAZING city but it is what it is. It's far from perfect but it's light years ahead of most other American cities, especially for it's size. The same should be said about New York, a city with it's own problems and again... VERY FAR from perfect. Just ask MOST New Yorker's and although they love their city just like Chicagoans and Detroiters, they'll tell you once you get outside of Manhattan, the services suck and you hear the same complaints that you do from people in Detroit and Chicago. Urban living is THE SHIT if you have the money to enjoy the perks. If you're broke it can be tough living. Otherwise you can enjoy some of the free things such as great parks, people watching, meeting interesting people everywhere you go and events that take place throughout the city. But all big Northern cities can be tough places to live.

[jayclarkreid]

Don't take what Mayor Ford of Toronto says too seriously. He is the political laughingstock of our Nation!

[Danny]

QUOTE=artds;331997]To the people comparing Dertroit to Chicago, are you serious? Yes, people are still moving to Chi in large numbers despite the city's high crime rate because, guess what, Chi actually has numerous safe residential areas that can accomodate large numbers of people and are far removed from the areas with lots of violent crime. If you live in a safe residential area, you don't tend to care that crime is hapeningseveral miles away.[/QUOTE]

"Chicago neighborhoods over the last 100 years has been set up as a industrial grid borders along with its housing grid and railroad grids. When immigrants came to Chicago, they settle in housing areas meant to demarcate lifestyles between the rich and poor.


First wave African Americans who came to Chicago since the late 1870s settled along near South Side areas of what is know as 'Bronzeville or Black Belt' along State Street to Michigan Ave. and further to Homewood and Hyde Park. Another group of African Americans the second wave who came to Chicago since WWII settle along ethnic Indo-European Jews communities from the near north side to North Lawndale Area. 16th Street to Roosevelt St. was once their thriving business spot until the Vice Lords Gang destroy it.

Mexican Americans settled along Pilsen 'Little Village' to South Lawndale Area since the 1950s. 26th Street is the hot spot Hispanic owned business. Later another group of Hispanics settled in the North Side from Humboldt Park to the Northwest Side of Chicago. Fullerton St. and North Ave. is their hot spot. The third group of Hispanic settle in the 'Lower 'East Side area in Chicago called 'Heschwich' since the 1970s.

The Chinese settled along Amour Square area since the late 1880s Still provide a strong Chinatown business along Canal St and Archer St.

Then you have Ukranian Village, Greektown, Little Italy, Polish community along Millwaukee Ave. And the fast growing ethnic Jewish, East Indian and Assyrian communities on the North Side near the suburban borders of Chicago from Edison Park to Edgewater Glen.

Today more Yuppified young professionals are moving into Downtown Chicago due to regional and job growth. More building and million dollar lofts, condos and single family homes are being built.

Of course Chicago had lost over 600,000 people over the last 10 years. But according the U.S. 2010 Census. Chicago has gained 11% more white people and other ethnic races faster than New York City. Mexican-Hispanic population is quickly growing in Chicago, too. The main group of race is losing people in Chicago is African Americans. Twenty years ago Chicago's Black population was over 1,100,000 25% more the Detroit population, but it remained under 40%. Now it's 920,000 and under 30%.

Chicago's City Government is runing what its called the traditional 'Daly' machine. Its has a ward system in which its very corrupt in some districts and successful in another. It kept plantation politics away and segregate aldermen and alderwomen from exchaning their urban poltical views about their districts.

It's police dept respons faster in safer neighborhoods in some districs in Chicago neighborhoods and slower in its ghettoes. This mean to the poor and low-income folks out of their traditional neighborhoods and go somewhere else. It happen to Cabrini-Green Housing Complex where it used to be a gang controlled emporium next to highly secured Gold Coast area. Now its a middle to low-income residential area. First time in over 45 years violent crime in that area has been reduced. So what does Detroit and Chicago compared? The answer lies in its people."