Hart Plaza Renovation: Will It Ever Happen?

**Strohs Brewery** · July-08-12, 03:41 PM

It's been a while since these renderings where put out there just to tease us. Is there any update on the Hart Plaza updates?

http://tbany.com/projects_page.php?p...6&categoryid=4

**DetroitPlanner** · July-08-12, 04:14 PM

Where is the money going to come from?

There is your answer, no money = no renovations.

**mikefmich** · July-08-12, 04:24 PM

It certainly would be nice to see that happen. However in the grand scheme of things, it's likely a tad down the list of "things to do" at the moment.

'Course we could always hope some gazillionaire might pay for it to happen.

**gameguy56** · July-08-12, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by mikefmich

'Course we could always hope some gazillionaire might pay for it to happen.

So....Mr. Gilbert.....about that Hart Plaza

**Scottathew** · July-08-12, 05:45 PM

I agree with others, there is no money for it. But once the money is flowing again, it would be very nice. Hart Plaza is just too much.... concrete.

**Sehv313** · January-06-13, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Hart Plaza is just too much.... concrete.

So adding grass that the city cant afford to maintain will improve it? That's not smart.

**wolverine** · January-06-13, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sehv313

So adding grass that the city cant afford to maintain will improve it? That's not smart.

Again, major parks and attractions should not be built or maintained by the city. That's absolutely crazy-talk in 2013. Everyone knows large cities do not have the resources to do either.

I can't imagine the city of Chicago having the money back in the 90's to build Millennium Park. And to think of the city attempting to maintain and run park operations there today would be next to impossible. Much of the funding sources and trust money comes from the businesses that have put their name on the park...many of them Big Banks.

**jtf1972** · July-08-12, 06:47 PM

As nice as the renderings are, there is still a major problem with Hart Plaza that is not addressed that will prevent it from being an integral part of downtown... the vast, imposing stretch of concrete that acts as a moat. We call it Jefferson Ave. You want to have a nice park/plaza that connects downtown to the river? Do something about the 10 lane freeway on/off ramp that acts nearly as much as a border as the river to the south.

**rb336** · July-08-12, 07:32 PM

Maybe put it underground, at least over a long enough stretch to have a big green path to the plaza?

**DetroitPlanner** · July-08-12, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

As nice as the renderings are, there is still a major problem with Hart Plaza that is not addressed that will prevent it from being an integral part of downtown... the vast, imposing stretch of concrete that acts as a moat. We call it Jefferson Ave. You want to have a nice park/plaza that connects downtown to the river? Do something about the 10 lane freeway on/off ramp that acts nearly as much as a border as the river to the south.

Two words: Lakeshore Drive.

Chicago has the same issue, but it has found ways to mitigate that issue. In addition, there is no 'moat' because it is connected to downtown through Cobo. Yes it is only one side, but the other side has the Ren Cen which has a good chunk of the City's employment and tourism.

I walk from my office to Hart Plaza often. If you sprint it you can make it across in one signal, but for most people it takes two. This is not an unusual amount of time to cross as many lanes as Jefferson has.

If you're real issue is the freeway, I don't know how that could realistically removed or reduced. Remember, this is still a critical link from the freeway system to an international border crossing and a major feeder into downtown's CBD. Burying the connector part won't work because there is already parking underneath. Even if we can double the transit trips it would not take enough cars out to completely remove the garage so Jefferson could be Wacker Drive.

Of course if the city does not have money for fire fighters, police officers, it will definitely be a long time before it will have the money for a major improvement to the transit system, a greening of Hart Plaza, or a partial burying of Jefferson Ave.

**wolverine** · January-06-13, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Two words: Lakeshore Drive.

Chicago has the same issue, but it has found ways to mitigate that issue.

Really only in some parts of downtown. Many of the access points are terrible. Narrow tunnels that get overcrowded during the summer or narrow sidewalks beneath dark overpasses. The city has made some half-assed attempts to spruce them up like a murals program...but they're still concrete tunnels IMO

Oak Street Beach Improvement:

Navy Pier LSD improvement:

But the area of park along the lake is primarily for beachfront enjoyment and fitness. The largest share of park visitors on that side of LSD are bicycling, jogging, and skateboarding.

Only recently have they begun to improve access and when that's done it will have cost well over $1Billion....fortunately from a good share coming from the feds. Many of those improvements are long-span / high clearance overpasses with a ton of landscaping. People don't really know what they are passing beneath, but it's so open it feels more like a gateway than a bridge.

I'm not sure Detroit can achieve it. You need hundreds, if not thousands of feet of approach to create sweeping 100 foot wide sidewalks that would go beneath Jefferson. The only solution Detroit would have is a tunnel or a pedestrian bridge. The pedestrian bridge could be done nicely, but again.....long ramps for ADA or elevators that would get vandalized and dirty and I'd hate to see stairs. So I really don't know how it could be done effectively. Seems like most people would still continue to use crosswalks.

Additionally, it's a different problem with the other side is a plaza. The plaza tends to provide best utility for a large events. There's no issues getting people to go there...they have a reason to attend an event. The issue is convenience and getting people to cross at lunch or providing visual attraction to visitors not familiar to the city. I agree that many people see that wide crossing and go "I don't want to deal with that."

But if Hart Plaza can become a "super attraction" it could get visitors coming in just to see the park. More engaging sculptures, world class outdoor performance spaces, and patches of unique and interesting landscaped areas.

Right now Hart Plaza is an unattractive modernist nightmare. It's poorly bookended on each side by Cobo and a parking garage. Needs improved access along Jefferson and far better engagement with the river.

I think the best way to get things moving is to sell a really attractive $350 million park renovation to business leaders. Have the entire thing financed and eventually managed and controlled privately and maintained through a trust. It helps take the burden of maintenance off the city and also allows private security more managing control over the park [[banning panhandlers, removal of obnoxious park visitors and permitting consumption of alcohol for example)

**southen** · July-08-12, 08:13 PM

i have always thought that some sort of pedestrian bridge would be nice, something with a unique design, would be great for jefferson. you have that patch of grass in front of CAY which would be a great spot and provide the room necessary for something like that. gehry's serpentine bridge in chicago comes to mind...

superduperman · July-09-12, 12:32 AM

I always wished that Hart Plaza was similar to Atlantas Underground so that it could have year round use and add more retail to downtown.

**stasu1213** · July-09-12, 05:39 AM

Hart Plaza has an underground to it where food vendors and restaurant once were. The area could be enlarged. It only takes the creativity of engineers, designers, and developers.

Detroit could do what Vegas had done with their 10 lane streets that run through the middle of their district; construct another overpass over Jefferson at the foot of Woodward. Have outdoor escalators to carry pedestrian to the overpass

**Hermod** · July-09-12, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Hart Plaza has an underground to it where food vendors and restaurant once were. The area could be enlarged. It only takes the creativity of engineers, designers, and developers.

And a lot of OPM [[other people's money).

**Zacha341** · July-09-12, 08:15 AM

There's also a gallery area down there and a lower smaller staging area for mini concerts. I used to go alot during the 80's... what it was, was fantastic. Though I never liked eating food down there crouched at those tiny tables or eating on your lap. I always took my food topside...

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Hart Plaza has an underground to it where food vendors and restaurant once were. The area could be enlarged. It only takes the creativity of engineers, designers, and developers.

Detroit could do what Vegas had done with their 10 lane streets that run through the middle of their district; construct another overpass over Jefferson at the foot of Woodward. Have outdoor escalators to carry pedestrian to the overpass

**Detroitnerd** · July-09-12, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Detroit could do what Vegas had done with their 10 lane streets that run through the middle of their district; construct another overpass over Jefferson at the foot of Woodward. Have outdoor escalators to carry pedestrian to the overpass

It's true: There is no way to cross Jefferson east of Beaubien without taking your life into your own hands.

But instead of building bridges with escalators, how about doing something really incredible: Shrinking Jefferson Avenue and slowing traffic. Maybe even doing away with the connection to I-75.

Oh, I know that's off the table because you need to have all that roadway for ... use a few times a year. And because this is the Motor City, and in the Motor City bla bla bla bla ...

**Hypestyles** · July-09-12, 02:04 PM

without private investment, I don't see it happening anytime soon.. and I don't like the idea of yet another big bond sale..

**Gistok** · July-09-12, 03:18 PM

You know.... I don't think that any of this is going to fix any problems for Hart Plaza... what is wrong with it? To little grass, too much pavers and cement, too much underground... too inaccessible to street light traffic???

Hart Plaza was very successful in the 1980s as a venue for the riverfront ethnic festivals. People liked it back then.

What has changed to make it less popular?

I think that many of you are addressing band aids rather than the true symptom of what is wrong with Hart Plaza. Unfortunately I don't know what IS wrong with the place that it attracts so few people in recent years. But unless we know for sure... throwing even more money at the place isn't the answer. Having a walkway above the street isn't that bad. But it doesn't seem to be a problem with Campus Martius... then why is it a problem with Hart Plaza?

I don't know the answer either.... but we should learn more about how that underutilized part the riverfront is the way it is, before spending scarce resources on it!

**iheartthed** · July-09-12, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Hart Plaza was very successful in the 1980s as a venue for the riverfront ethnic festivals. People liked it back then.

What has changed to make it less popular?

Seems like what changed is that the festivals thinned out.

**mikeg19** · July-09-12, 04:13 PM

Sink Jefferson Ave and cap it with greenery. You could cap it all the way to the 375 connector or have it surface in front of the Ren Cen where Hart Plaza ends. Now where did I put that checkbook with the unlimited funding at????

**Detroitnerd** · July-09-12, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Sink Jefferson Ave and cap it with greenery. You could cap it all the way to the 375 connector or have it surface in front of the Ren Cen where Hart Plaza ends. Now where did I put that checkbook with the unlimited funding at????

Good, that way there will be no access from underground Jefferson to all the streets in downtown. :P

**DetroitPlanner** · July-09-12, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Good, that way there will be no access from underground Jefferson to all the streets in downtown. :P

Thats why you would need to Wacker drive it. Unfortunately there is no money for the park, for the road, or for the transit upgrades needed to remove the parking that is under Jefferson.

Gistok is right. This park had no issues attracting crowds 25 years ago. However, it has become an area where the underground is filled with bums and all of the activity has been siphoned off to the newer town squares found at Campus Martius, or in front of the Ren Cen. Hopefully we can get some more activity in this area once Cobo is done and conventioneers start using it to traipse between the Marriot and the meetings.

**gthomas** · July-09-12, 07:41 PM

Look at this rendering, some type of building connected to the parking garage next to Hart Plaza. Also, look at the infrastructure's around the state park leading to Jefferson st. We have a connection issue with development, there is too many gaps in between major development throughout.

**rb336** · July-09-12, 08:44 PM

The little building in front is the Port Authority terminal. It almost looks like they extended the parking garage over the tunnel entrance. I seem to recall a plan to put a hotel on the site from around 6 years ago or so. I know hines & GM are still planning a "river east" development for the lots east of ren cen [[actually all the ren cen-belle isle ideas are still active, at least they were the last time I talked to the main actors).