15 Detroit Fire Companies closing, nearly 200 demotions

[313WX]

I agree,my point exactly, but am tired of the conspiracy theories that say Governor Snyder wants Detroit to fail. It makes no sense at all that a state government would want a municipality to fail, especially one that is so identifiable with Michigan.

No one said Snyder wants Detroit to fail.

The million dollar question is will Snyder's methods only accelerate Detroit's decline, which in essence means it failed. The jury's still out on that one. He may very well have good intentions for the city, that doesn't mean he's applying the right solutions to its problems.

Name me one major city that has cut its way to prosperity the way Detroit plans to? Let's be honest, this FSA is nothing more than a Social engineering experiment in disguise.

[shovelhead]

There have been other threads espousing this theory here. And at least one in this thread IMO implied this. "They" control the money.

And I cannot name another major city that is as bad off as Detroit, can you? What measures did Stockton California try before they declared bankruptcy?

From the Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1648634.html

And again, where is the unlimited pot of gold that Detroit needs to continue business as usual? Hint, it's not at the end of the rainbow.....

[313WX]

There have been other threads espousing this theory here.

Th FSA is still in its infancy, so nothing has been "espoused" as of yet.

Some have come up with theories that Detroit as a whole will be better off with this FSA, but they're just theories and I want the actual results to speak for themselves, considering there are no analogs for Detroit's situation.

But based on how the state has handled Detroit's problems in the past and the number one cause of Detroit's decline is the already poor quality of life, I'm inclined to think Detroit will end up worse off.

[shovelhead]

I don't disagree with you. IMO the Granholm administration stuck it's head in the sand during the Kilpatrick fiasco as he was a machine person. Party loyalties.

I think it has gotten so bad that the Federal government is the only way it will be resurrected. Financially it is beyond the state's ability to bail the city out of this quagmire.

[stasu1213]

The clowcil wanted the DFD cuts as well as that mayor had wanted it. Pugh boasted on one radio show that the mayor is going along with the cuts proposed by council. I feel that all of this is down by design. I wish that Krysal Crittenton could request that the mayor and the 5 council members be terminated from their positions for sidestepping her and signing an illegal document[[the consent agreement). We could start from scratch. I wonder if the residents or someone in the city could write Washington tell the Presidents and others that Detroiters are being deprived of the services our tax dollars are paying for.

[adamjab19]

In all honesty, fines and sentences are a fart in the wind towards "rewiring" the Detroit culture. If you can fix the education, and find ways to cultivate jobs and commerce then you're taking a bigger step than any authoritarian kind of plan. But the third peg has to be family planning. Without it, there will still be generations of kids not held to standards of going to school and jumping into society in a reasonable fashion. Without a proper family structure, they will most definitely continue to fall through the cracks.

But looking deeper you will find all the nasty challenges that oppose reaching such accomplishments. Start with the leaders who squander and/or pilfer money. Or the rampant war on drugs and all of its nasty externalities. How about the defunct city services that leave an outrageous gap between what is now provided and what is needed. And the dwindling tax base. Lat thing Detroit needs is less tax payers. The casinos don't help either if you ask me.

Seems vague and almost too much. Ya know, like a pipe dream. But that's how I would focus on rebooting the prosperity of our yesteryears.

I totally agree with everything you typed. There needs to be a culture change.

[kenp]

Has the DFD shrunk in the same porportion as the city population over the years?

[Zacha341]

Exactly, I been saying this all the long... we took our medicine or inaction well so long as a D was after the name. Not that I am all giddy for the repubs. I am not... but our problems did not start yesterday, or even last week!

I don't disagree with you. IMO the Granholm administration stuck it's head in the sand during the Kilpatrick fiasco as he was a machine person. Party loyalties.

I think it has gotten so bad that the Federal government is the only way it will be resurrected. Financially it is beyond the state's ability to bail the city out of this quagmire.

[Scottathew]

I wish that Krysal Crittenton could request that the mayor and the 5 council members be terminated from their positions for sidestepping her and signing an illegal document[[the consent agreement). We could start from scratch. I wonder if the residents or someone in the city could write Washington tell the Presidents and others that Detroiters are being deprived of the services our tax dollars are paying for.

There is no starting from scratch. Accept the Consent Agreement. Otherwise you may choose from municipal bankruptcy or an EFM.

As for citizens being deprived, they are being deprived by the mismanagement of the people they have elected.

"The man" is not depriving Detroiters.

Governor Snyder is not depriving Detroiters.

Washington, "the system", "the 1%", the suburbs, capitalism, republicans, etc... are not depriving Detroiters.

Detroiters have deprived Detroiters through mismanagement, a culture that has torn a city apart, and a culture that only makes excuses for lop-sided union contracts.

Crittenton was not, is not, and will not be a productive part of any solution.

[jcdfde5]

Has the DFD shrunk in the same porportion as the city population over the years?

The DFD is half the size it was in the 1960's. With the same fire load and square miles it services. Not to mention a couple more vacant structures...

[antongast]

Nope, just mis-management, stealing, and horrible union contracts. Throwing more money at Detroit isn't the answer. Detroit needs to be fixed.

Detroit needs both more money and structural reform. They're separate issues. Getting rid of the waste won't solve the revenue problem any more than increasing revenue will solve the waste problem.

Although I do agree with others that non-core services should be gutted before police and fire are.

"Gutting" services is not a productive reform. It's a last-ditch burn-the-furniture austerity measure whose main long-term effect will be to accelerate Detroit's decline. I'm receptive to the argument that some of Detroit's services could be provided more effectively by Wayne County or some sort of regional authority, but a serious reform effort would 1) identify which services those are based on some criteria other than "we have to cut the budget RIGHT NOW to make payroll next week" and 2) come up with an actual plan to regionalize the services.

[Scottathew]

The DFD is half the size it was in the 1960's. With the same fire load and square miles it services. Not to mention a couple more vacant structures...

But protecting 40% of the population. Also, while the number of vacant structures is up, the number of occupied structures is vastly down.

DFD needed cuts, but all the non-core services should all be cut even harder.

[Scottathew]

Detroit needs both more money and structural reform. They're separate issues. Getting rid of the waste won't solve the revenue problem any more than increasing revenue will solve the waste problem.

I don't mean this as a hostile question, but more of a fact-finding mission:

How does Detroit increase revenue? What source[[s) does it come from?

[jcdfde5]

By Identifing the immediate core services and investing heavily..
Then repackaging the Detroit name and attracting FAMILIES.
Like it or not Detroit is and will always be the face of Michigan.

[Scottathew]

By Identifing the immediate core services and investing heavily..
Then repackaging the Detroit name and attracting FAMILIES.
Like it or not Detroit is and will always be the face of Michigan.

If you were answering my question, I don't think you understood it.

Increasing services increases expenditures. You've suggested fixing the budget problem by spending more. That's something that only the federal government can try.

[antongast]

If you were answering my question, I don't think you understood it.

Increasing services increases expenditures. You've suggested fixing the budget problem by spending more. That's something that only the federal government can try.

So did you answer your own question, then?

[jcdfde5]

If you were answering my question, I don't think you understood it.

Increasing services increases expenditures. You've suggested fixing the budget problem by spending more. That's something that only the federal government can try.

The city still has revenue comming in. I just think it needs to drop the fluff spending.
Cars/ protection / cell phones for city council just for example!

[coracle]

I've worked for government my whole life. Trust me: Everybody who works there is incompetent!
Attachment 14392

Do you include yourself in that statement? Based on the photo you are certainly handsome and look very intelligent.

[Zacha341]

Yep, I agree with much that you state.

The inexorable, and steady MARCH to EFM or bankruptcy is picking up step. Not that I support EFM's and their own costly infrastructures and batteries of high paid consultants and other floatsum, but years of foolishness and 'our turn' corruption has delivered to this place in time.

We should be used to the resource and cash sifting and siphoning floatsum! After all that was in full bloom in the expression of the 'friends and family' money grabs that were allowed and endorsed for years, for us, BY US.

The new crowd just looks different.

There is no starting from scratch. Accept the Consent Agreement. Otherwise you may choose from municipal bankruptcy or an EFM.

As for citizens being deprived, they are being deprived by the mismanagement of the people they have elected.

"The man" is not depriving Detroiters.

Governor Snyder is not depriving Detroiters.

Washington, "the system", "the 1%", the suburbs, capitalism, republicans, etc... are not depriving Detroiters.

Detroiters have deprived Detroiters through mismanagement, a culture that has torn a city apart, and a culture that only makes excuses for lop-sided union contracts.

Crittenton was not, is not, and will not be a productive part of any solution.

[Zacha341]

What a mess. Everyone wants to have their say while the floor burns beneath them literally. Crittenton, agree with her or not is an outworking of the confusion.

Yet in the meantime where are the citizens in this drama? Um, just waiting as core city services dwindle daily?

The clowcil wanted the DFD cuts as well as that mayor had wanted it. Pugh boasted on one radio show that the mayor is going along with the cuts proposed by council. I feel that all of this is down by design. I wish that Krysal Crittenton could request that the mayor and the 5 council members be terminated from their positions for sidestepping her and signing an illegal document[[the consent agreement). We could start from scratch. I wonder if the residents or someone in the city could write Washington tell the Presidents and others that Detroiters are being deprived of the services our tax dollars are paying for.

[401don]

Detroit seems to be getting a lot of attention in the Toronto Star lately. This article covered 2 full pages in the print edition today. It states that some people believe "powerful interests" are behind the fires in order to speed up clearing the neighborhoods for future development.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...ings-destroyed

[Scottathew]

So did you answer your own question, then?

No, I did not. It was a genuine question. If we were to raise revenue, how would we do that?

I can't see too many ways that the public would tolerate. If you raise the income tax it will hurt businesses ability to attract people, as well as hurt residents. If you raise property taxes, it going to hurt residents that are already feeling the pain.

Other than income and property tax increases, there are no other magical ways to get revenue that I'm aware of.

[Scottathew]

The city still has revenue comming in. I just think it needs to drop the fluff spending.
Cars/ protection / cell phones for city council just for example!

The examples of fluff spending you provided are excellent. Cut the city council staff, cut the cell phones, cut protection.

Those examples only add up to a little bit, but every little bit counts. The trick is looking for all the other little things and get rid of those too.

Hack into non-core departments. Slash non-core services at a much greater rate than core services.

Privatize. Get the hell out of the electric grid, generation, and street lighting business. Let DTE do all those things, because DTE has proven they're good at it.

Detroit sucks at getting an ambulance to medical emergencies. PRIVATIZE IT. It doesn't matter if the truck says Detroit Fire Department on it if it takes 20-30 minutes for it to arrive. Private companies have and will provide better service.

On top of all the little things we need to find, on top of privatizing out of things we shouldn't be in, Detroit will also need to get union labor expenses in check.


For me the solution is mostly on the expense cutting side, I simply don't think the public would vote in a millage increase right now.

[Hermod]

The DFD is half the size it was in the 1960's. With the same fire load and square miles it services. Not to mention a couple more vacant structures...

When you say "half the size" do you mean half the number of engine companies and ladder companies or do you mean half the total personnel strength?

[Rocko]

The thing of it is, if Police are cut, you can hire a private security firm. It's not quite the same, but if the security helps to deter crime, then it's effective. If the city-run EMS service is failing, you can outsource to a private ambulance company to do runs in the city. Last I checked, there isn't a readily available supply of private fire engine operators just waiting to get a chance to put fires out in Detroit. The mower gang can cut grass when the city won't. The rent-a-cop can patrol the streets when there aren't enough police. I hope the homeowner garden-hose squad has their spigots at the ready.

What is happening at these "Closed" firehouses regarding scrapping is just disgusting. The FOX article made it sound like no firehouses were officially closing, more that a certain number would go unstaffed on any one day, on a rotating basis. Unfortunately, their placement around the city doesn't allow the city to staff all engine-only companies, while temporarily shutting down the engines that share a firehouse with a ladder, battalion, or medic unit also based there, essentially keeping all buildings occupied and off the radar of the scrappers. Is the city really not shutting any specific engines down, or is the Fox article incorrect? If they are, does anyone know which ones are on the chopping block?

That Detroit won this $22.5 million grant is good news, but the city needs to constantly be applying for additional funding to keep staffing where it needs to be and to keep equipment and property in good repair. The city can't fund all of that? FINE. Then they need to spend the money to pay people who know what they're doing to try to win them the money.

A person may get robbed, or their property broken into, but they still may decide to stay in Detroit. If their property has a significant fire or burns to the ground, they're gone. Detroit may be a wreck of itself but in a few places, things are either stable or on the upswing. Cutting the FD to half a shoestring is not going to convince anyone that their future, money, or time should be invested in Detroit.

-Rocko, who visited Detroit last week for the first time in 9 months since officially moving to Connecticut.