City Council to Ask Mayor Bing to Remove New Apple Orchards from Palmer Park!

**Pam** · May-31-12, 01:05 PM

I guess it will come out in the meeting, but there are people in the park group that do live in that area. I don't think the CC could paint them as "invaders".

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 01:22 PM

You have to keep in mind that nearby Pontchartrain Dr. and Hamilton Rd. are just about the wealthiest areas in the City of Detroit. In reading the resolution, it all sounds like a political control/power argument. The nearby well-off residents weren't consulted about the planting of an orchard in what they view as their backyard, and they are pissed off.

Who are these "People for Palmer Park" to come into their neighborhood and plant an orchard like it's out in the country somewhere? Why weren't they consulted and told at all? Un-unh, that stuff's got to go! A few calls by a few big names to Councilmember's offices, and it's done!

It may sound stupid and wasteful to tear out newly planted trees, and I would probably agree with you. But then I don't live around there either. It does sound though like these neighbors do have a valid point, and this sure seems like a problem that could have been avoided, and perhaps solved, with some neighborly communication.

One thing I've noticed though about some outside "do-gooders" in the city is that, although they often work with the best of intentions, they also sometimes seem to lose sight of the fact that people really do live here. People whose view of what's good for them and their neighborhood may differ from yours, or who may simply want to be asked and consulted before you start changing things around. In the rush to enact your own utopian ideas, actual Detroiters themselves seem often to be treated as needy abstractions and a faceless mass.

I have no idea what amount of neighborhood input went into the planning of this orchard, but it sure seems like some nearby people feel that they were not consulted, or even warned. So one shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the people who are objecting to this, and who apparently got the Council to move on their behalf, are the people who actually live there. And they may have some good reasons for their objections, beyond the one most vehemently posited here of racial resentment. So, while you may think an apple orchard is all hunky-dory and the bee's knees, obviously some of the closest neighbors think otherwise. And they sure seem to feel that they didn't ask for, or need, such a thing as an apple orchard near their homes, and are willing to pull what strings they have available to them to have it removed.

Beyond the brave talk one often sees here though, when push comes to shove apparently few posters here seem to have much respect for the actual wants, needs, and thoughts of "those people," and some instead fall into the usual thinly veiled ugly name-calling. Some posters here, in fact, seem to expect Detroiters to bow in deep thanks for all the good you're doing for them, even though what you're doing may not have been what they wanted at all [[and even though they may, in fact, not be so needy after all). Perhaps a little more communication would have made this clear.

**Hypestyles** · May-31-12, 01:37 PM

"trees? not in my backyard!"

I predict that the trees will end up likely being razed with bulldozers, then sent to a landfill.. oh, well..

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 01:40 PM

EastsideAl, you wrote:

"It may sound stupid and wasteful to tear out newly planted trees, and I would probably agree with you. But then I don't live around there either. It does sound though like these neighbors do have a valid point, and this sure seems like a problem that could have been avoided, and perhaps solved, with some neighborly communication. "

I quote from the newspaper article again:
Leonora King, a member of People for Palmer Park, said the group worked with the support of the city's General Services and Recreation Department.
Rochelle Lento, also with the group, said members sought residents' input over the past 14 months including in community meetings.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz1wTS7V0Ei

**Detroitgayhistoryguy** · May-31-12, 01:43 PM

Al, I believe they did hold plenty of meetings and tried to get the residents input. They cleared out invasive species and overgrowth and planted a lovely orchard. Can you imagine when this orchard is flowering how beautiful it is going to be? This isn't just something they slipped in overnight, this has been a long time coming. The residents surely should have known about it when it was purposed and they could have voiced their objections then. To say that this was just done without their input is crazy. They had plenty of opportunity to object. I don't really believe this is about objections from neighboring residents, that is the cover story. I hate to say it, but this is about race.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 01:55 PM

Is it race? Or displacement? Detroitgayhistoryguy - can you amplify?
i did get a whiff of cultural division with the mention of "rodents." This is an odd thing to worry about in a park where already millions of chestnuts so beloved of squirrels and "rodents' fall. It sort of whispered white painted tree trunks and vinyl-covered sofas. But that is not the style of the Palemer woods residents whether black or white.

**ronaldj** · May-31-12, 01:58 PM

Having been involved in steering commitees etc over the years, not all projects are perfect. That said, the bitchers should have participated instead of whine after the fact. Trees, thumbs up, assholes thumbs down... Clownsi,l a huge duh award.

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I quote from the newspaper article again:
Leonora King, a member of People for Palmer Park, said the group worked with the support of the city's General Services and Recreation Department.
Rochelle Lento, also with the group, said members sought residents' input over the past 14 months including in community meetings.

That seems to be the crux of the disagreement here. The Council resolution states:

"Numerous homeowners from Pontchartrain Drive, a main thoroughfare immediately bordering the park, attended the May 24, 2012 Neighborhood and Community Services Standing Committee meeting of the Detroit City Council voicing strong opposition to the fruit orchard recently planted in Palmer Park by the People For Palmer Park [[PFPP) without the knowledge or input of residents"

and

"The fruit orchard was started on April 16, 2012 without any knowledge or input from adjacent neighbors and area residents ... in absence of proper zoning classification for agricultural activities in urban areas"

They may not be right, but obviously some people in the neighborhood feel strongly that they were not properly informed or consulted, that the orchard was an unwelcome surprise, and that it was started without following proper procedure.

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitgayhistoryguy

Al, I believe they did hold plenty of meetings and tried to get the residents input. They cleared out invasive species and overgrowth and planted a lovely orchard. Can you imagine when this orchard is flowering how beautiful it is going to be? This isn't just something they slipped in overnight, this has been a long time coming. The residents surely should have known about it when it was purposed and they could have voiced their objections then. To say that this was just done without their input is crazy. They had plenty of opportunity to object. I don't really believe this is about objections from neighboring residents, that is the cover story. I hate to say it, but this is about race.

Or, perhaps, some reasonable people differ on the "beauty" of a field full of flowering or fruiting trees when it's right behind their house.

**poobert** · May-31-12, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

One thing I've noticed though about some outside "do-gooders" in the city is that, although they often work with the best of intentions, they also sometimes seem to lose sight of the fact that people really do live here. People whose view of what's good for them and their neighborhood may differ from yours, or who may simply want to be asked and consulted before you start changing things around. In the rush to enact your own utopian ideas, actual Detroiters themselves seem often to be treated as needy abstractions and a faceless mass.

This is entirely true. Witness the "art house" mess thing on Chene a while back, which was essentially a grafittied abandoned house with tires strewn around it by a bunch of out-of-towners.

However I think an orchard and a bunch of tires aren't much of a comparison. Regarding the outsiders thing, I would bet that the vast majority, and quite possibly everyone, in People for Palmer Park are Detroiters [[or do I have to say City of Detroiters around here before some suburbanite trying to act hard by saying they live in Detroit gets their Northface fleece in a bunch?). Palmer Park doesn't really attract interest to outsiders like Belle Isle or Rouge Park. The people I know in that organization are Detroiters, anyway.

That said, it's a city park, not owned by the residents even adjacent to it. And I think you're right about the wealth/influence. People in less tony neighborhoods try for years with no results to get rid of burned out houses right next door. But when that letter from Ponchartrain Drive lands on the Council table, those trees gotta go!

More than anything I think it just reflects the reactionary nature of Detroit politics and governance [[and Metro Detroit's as well) - the inability to think critically and apply creative solutions to problems. We're forever stuck in the 1970's, or at least desperately trying to get back to them.

**Detroitgayhistoryguy** · May-31-12, 02:29 PM

I should add, they are planning on harvesting the apples, not just letting them fall on the ground and rot. Therefore, there should be little to no food for rodents anyway. So the rodent argument is null and void. Look at the cherry blossoms in Washington D.C. that attracts visitors and is great for the local economy. When this orchard blossoms it is going to be spectacular. I would kill for a view of this out my window. It will increase the value of the real estate that has a view of it. What was there before? Invasive species, overgrowth, ghetto palms? No, this is about a group that is seen by the likes of Joann Watson as white people invading on their turf. Seriously? arguing that something beautiful is ugly? It is like saying that Brad Pitt is butt ugly.

**jt1** · May-31-12, 02:33 PM

I'm curious if the people adjacent to orchard are concerned that 'free' fruit could lead to an increase in homeless in that area of the park when the fruits are fully mature and ready to eat.

Some people may think it is ridiculous but free food [[whether from an orchard or a Salvation Army truck) tends to bring in a number of homeless people.

It may sound heartless but I wouldn't want an orchard of free food in my backyard. If [[and this is only my speculation) this is a reason for concern I think it is a valid one.

**compn** · May-31-12, 02:34 PM

did these fine people forget about johnny appleseed so quickly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IASrP1-DulU

**drjeff** · May-31-12, 02:37 PM

Detroit citizens should be incensed that the city council would even think about spending time and money on ripping out fruit trees from a city park when their city is bankrupt.

And considering Joann Watson's property tax paying history, or lack thereof, she should keep her fat trap shut, period.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 02:43 PM

The neighbors on Pontchartrain bought houses next to a park that is being renewed with - what else - trees! The volunteers will harvest the apples - they have big plans for that - and there won't be any rodents.

I have to agree. There is is a sub-text here. I just don't think its been nailed yet. Is it cultural that Black people don't think trained, espaliered trees arebeautiful like white people do? Is it that Black people don't want white people's taste and eco-philosphy next to their houses? Is it that Rachel Lento - also a neighbor - was one of the people who got that Palemer woods squatter - who is Black - into jailhouse scrubs?

The people who are defending the neighbors disputing are having to reach awfully far to make their case here.

**jtf1972** · May-31-12, 02:53 PM

Watson's main argument is that the City Master Plan of 2009 does not specify for orchards in Palmer Park, so they are illegal.

I guess anything not expressly outlined in the 2009 Master Plan is illegal. Sorry Mr. Penske, we gotta shut the Grand Prix down...

**jt1** · May-31-12, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

I guess anything not expressly outlined in the 2009 Master Plan is illegal. Sorry Mr. Penske, we gotta shut the Grand Prix down...

If only they would have. Now we get the Grand Prix for a couple days and that horrible concrete paddock the rest of the year.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 03:04 PM

Does the Master Plan 2009 [[I am not aware that the City of Detroit has ever rigorously held to any Master Plan over the years) prohibit tree planting in Palmer Park? Nothing in Detroit can be accomplished in any future unless expressly stated in the plan? No new ideas? No future dreams allowed?

Perhaps they are thinking of this as a commercial enterprise, because left-over apples after distribution to the Mounted Police barns, would be sold at Farmer's markets. But not commercial because any profits plowed back into making the Park more beautiful.

**jtf1972** · May-31-12, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Now we get...that horrible concrete paddock the rest of the year.

Not in the Master Plan!

Sounds like a plan to me. I would allow the residents of Pontchartrain Dr. to have their weed infested vacant lots for the removal of Lake Penske!

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

The people who are defending the neighbors disputing are having to reach awfully far to make their case here.

I'm not defending the neighbors, as I probably don't even agree with them [[although I haven't seen this orchard yet). But I'm not sure that anyone has to reach much further than just saying that many neighbors seem to object in order to justify their objections - even if you don't personally share them.

I think all of us as citizens, of whatever race, have a justified interest in activities that happen near our homes, and have a right to object to those activities. There are a number of questions that arise from this particular case [[such as, whether or not the local residents have already had enough notice and input, whether these particular residents represent the views of a majority of park neighbors or just a particularly connected minority, how far the objections of neighbors goes in determining activities happening in a public park, and whether the proper procedures were indeed followed in planning and executing the orchard). But I am hardly ready to dismiss the objections of nearby residents out of hand, or to marginalize them as obviously a bunch of crazy, power-mad, whitey-hatin' negroes who don't know what's good for them.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 03:33 PM

People for Palmer Park memo:

There are some folks mad about the apple orchard being planted in the Park. The ones that live on the golf course. They are not mad about the prostitution, the litter, the dope selling, the lack of lighting, the dangerous playscape or the pool that was vandalized to the cost of $100,000 this past year.
Update: A PFPP rep adds that a number of residents that live adjacent to the orchards are in favor of the orchard and helped plant the trees.
People for Palmer Park or other PP residents were not approached at all for their side in the first City Council hearing.

**Detroitnerd** · May-31-12, 03:36 PM

Reminds me of the rules in some "association" subdivisions that prohibit hanging laundry out to dry. Too "working-class" -- they fear it would drive down housing values. So they forbid it.

Palmer Park and the neighborhoods around it ooze exclusivity. Tudor mansions and the like, manicured lawns, it's a place for Detroit's movers and shakers to ape the gentry of an earlier era. And land should be for the eye to delight in, not for a gauche productive purpose like growing food.

I also realize that the northern migration left lasting effects on Detroit's African-American population. Some people seem to enjoy agriculture, using the skills they learned on their parents' or grandparents' spreads when visiting the family. And some people, many of them the upper-crusters, are offended by the idea of working the land, connecting it with the "plantation" of the 19th century.

Those are some of the possible subtexts. But the old battle between using land productively for the many and using land for the profit or amusement of the few goes on and on, from the British Enclosure Acts of the 16th century to today's proposed wind farms off Cape Cod.

**jt1** · May-31-12, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

People for Palmer Park memo:

There are some folks mad about the apple orchard being planted in the Park. The ones that live on the golf course. They are not mad about the prostitution, the litter, the dope selling, the lack of lighting, the dangerous playscape or the pool that was vandalized to the cost of $100,000 this past year.
Update: A PFPP rep adds that a number of residents that live adjacent to the orchards are in favor of the orchard and helped plant the trees.
People for Palmer Park or other PP residents were not approached at all for their side in the first City Council hearing.

Sounds like PFPP are a bunch of condescending a-holes with that quote. How do they know what the objecting residents have done or are doing to address "the prostitution, the litter, the dope selling, the lack of lighting, the dangerous playscape or the pool that was vandalized to the cost of $100,000 this past year"

**hamtown mike** · May-31-12, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

I have no idea what amount of neighborhood input went into the planning of this orchard, but it sure seems like some nearby people feel that they were not consulted, or even warned. So one shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the people who are objecting to this, and who apparently got the Council to move on their behalf, are the people who actually live there. And they may have some good reasons for their objections, beyond the one most vehemently posited here of racial resentment. So, while you may think an apple orchard is all hunky-dory and the bee's knees, obviously some of the closest neighbors think otherwise. And they sure seem to feel that they didn't ask for, or need, such a thing as an apple orchard near their homes, and are willing to pull what strings they have available to them to have it removed.

You cannot please all the people all the time. And in this case if you displease a handful of powerful people, that trumps pleasing the majority.

This seems to be the anchor around the neck of many who are trying to make a difference in the city. Displease just one person and they will vehemently fight your efforts simply because they were not consulted or they are protecting their own interests. Remember, in Detroit, the loudest voice is right.

As far as the insider/outsider issue-Detroit does participate in statewide profit sharing, when the city actually chooses to properly fill out the paperwork. To imply that authority over what takes place in Palmer Park belongs to the 30 home owners along Hamilton and that they should "be consulted" is mind blowing. Chances are they would p[refer to not see any improvement in the area. You chose to live next to a public park. Should I consult all 30 home owners if I go for a jog along Ponchetrain and decide to take off my shirt? Who knows, somebody in one of those 30 homes may find it offensive.

This park belongs to the entire population of the state and the country not a handful of NIMBY's!