City Council to Ask Mayor Bing to Remove New Apple Orchards from Palmer Park!

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 03:43 PM

Sounds like PFPP are a bunch of condescending a-holes with that quote. How do they know what the objecting residents have done or are doing to address?

Because PFPP have been working on behalf of the Park since 2009 - and they know who they are.

**jt1** · May-31-12, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Sounds like PFPP are a bunch of condescending a-holes with that quote. How do they know what the objecting residents have done or are doing to address?

Because PFPP have been working on behalf of the Park since 2009 - and they know who they are.

I don't doubt that they have done a lot for the park and will continue to do a lot. That quote, however, was completely out of line.

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

The neighbors on Pontchartrain bought houses next to a park that is being renewed with - what else - trees! The volunteers will harvest the apples - they have big plans for that - and there won't be any rodents.

I have to agree. There is is a sub-text here. I just don't think its been nailed yet. Is it cultural that Black people don't think trained, espaliered trees arebeautiful like white people do? Is it that Black people don't want white people's taste and eco-philosphy next to their houses? Is it that Rachel Lento - also a neighbor - was one of the people who got that Palemer woods squatter - who is Black - into jailhouse scrubs?

You also bring up a racial/cultural sub-text here, and I think that a reading of the Council resolution can potentially reveal one of them.

This goes back to a discussion and disagreement I've had with some of my white progressive friends who see 'urban farming' as some sort of magic answer to many of Detroit's problems. Which is, what if local residents don't want farms in their neighborhood? And what if they have no desire to become farmers?

It shouldn't be a big stretch to consider that people whose ancestors endured many decades of agricultural slavery, and whose families came to the city specifically to escape rural poverty, isolation, and the endless dirty toil of farmwork, might not think of farming as a wonderful opportunity for their future. Yet, I'm often met with incomprehension when I try to make the point that African-Americans may not share the same utopian view of farms and farming that many of these young, progressive, white middle class people seem to have. And, instead of thinking about why someone else with a different life experience and cultural history may feel differently, they often argue about how "beautiful" and "beneficial" their idealized 'locavore' farms would be. Thus effectively dismissing the feelings of others as ignorance or stupidity compared to their superior magic thinking.

Similarly, if you read the City Council resolution regarding this orchard, you will see a number of references that suggest that farms and agriculture are seen as incompatible with a comfortable urban life. It sounds like at least some of the neighbors are unhappy that, having succeeded to the point where they're homeowners on Pontchartrain Dr., they are now being forced by someone else to live next to what they view as a dirty "farm" instead of a park.

**jt1** · May-31-12, 03:51 PM

Here is there update on their FB page:

Ok, well, let's see. Got done at 3:30! The City Council is requesting that PFPP and the residents on Hamilton sit down and meet with a moderator to come to a compromise - perhaps moving a row or rows of trees that are next to the house on Hamilton, building a fence, or something and hopefully not removing all the trees. The City Council was upset about the approval process - that if something is given to the city as a gift [[like the trees were), city council needs to approve and accept the gift. Recreation and General Services were operating under the assumption and an ordinance that if something goes on inside a city park, they don't need city council approval. Also, the council feels that the orchard should have come to council for approval and not just approval by city administration. When something comes to council, there is a public hearing and they said these few residents that live on Hamilton would have been able to come and voice their opinions and things would have been hashed out before going into place. Unfortunately, by the time the public each could speak for a minute, many of the orchard supporters had already left for work. The folks who are against it cited pesticides, rodents, etc., which are non-issues. Security was cited as an issue for the person who lives right next door to the orchard. The folks on Hamilton felt that they had not been informed - city council said PFPP should have gone door to door for the people living right next door. We agreed that in retrospect, we should have done extra special outreach to those folks.

----------------------------

So snark aside they are stating that [[a) it is only people on one road that is impacted and [[b) they did not approach those people and explain their plans and get feedback and [[c) they admit they should have communicated the plans better. Certainly not how it has been represented.

As I said earlier, they are likely doing a lot of great work in the park but the snark and attitude is a little off putting when they didn't bother to communicate the plans to the people immediately adjacent to the orchard.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 03:53 PM

You should forgive them for their snakiness. They raised the money and then organized and planted - think- 300 trees last month. Prepared the area, staked them and mulched them. Now comes the residents on Pontchartrain to complain.

Not sure what the Detroit Golf Club Golf course has to do with this. I had friends with a home on Pontchartrain and they had the really nice amenity of a well-guarded moon-lit golf course just past their rear lot-lines. Very beautiful in the winter, too.

**Detroitgayhistoryguy** · May-31-12, 03:57 PM

Common Al, "Dirty" farm? This is not a cotton plantation. It is an apple orchard.

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**hamtown mike** · May-31-12, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

Watson's main argument is that the City Master Plan of 2009 does not specify for orchards in Palmer Park, so they are illegal.

I guess anything not expressly outlined in the 2009 Master Plan is illegal. Sorry Mr. Penske, we gotta shut the Grand Prix down...

And wasn't closure of Palmer Park originally part of that 2009 plan? Hmmm what do you do with a closed park? I know, sell it to wealthy individuals that live next to it. Increased interest in the park makes that even more difficult to pull off in the future.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 04:02 PM

And, please - just about everyone in this country has ancestors who farmed. I am two generations from the farm in Ontario. And on my French-Canadian side, I am two generations from the grandmother who had a French pear orchard on the east-side of Detroit in the old St. Clair Heights neighborhood. Not in a park. Just on her lots.

Your overboard support for the objecting neighbors is so resonant of the complaints I heard from black co-workers justifying why they wouldn't take part in City clean-up volunteer actions - it was too much like slavery days.

**jt1** · May-31-12, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

You should forgive them for their snakiness. They raised the money and then organized and planted - think- 300 trees last month. Prepared the area, staked them and mulched them. Now comes the residents on Pontchartrain to complain.

Not sure what the Detroit Golf Club Golf course has to do with this. I had friends with a home on Pontchartrain and they had the really nice amenity of a well-guarded moon-lit golf course just past their rear lot-lines. Very beautiful in the winter, too.

According to their post it was residents of Hamilton and 139 trees. Again, they did a very nice thing but appear to have ignored getting feedback or properly communicating to those that appear most directly impacted.

Everyone here is quick to dismiss their concerns [[whether valid or not I don't know) because of the reasons that are inferred. I could paint your house and insist I'm doing you a favor but you may hate the color.

PFPP's snarky, condescending attitude is a little off putting especially when they appear to indicate that they didn't even bother to get feedback or inform the residents of Hamilton what they are doing.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 04:08 PM

But your analogy doesn't succeed -the park is not their private property.

**jt1** · May-31-12, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

But your analogy doesn't succeed -the park is not their private property.

Fair point. How about I put an art installation [[which consist of random junk) adjacent to your house and expect you to thank me.

And just for clarity: I think the orchard will be attractive and appreciate the work that PFPP is doing. That doesn't change the fact that they didn't even bother to discuss it with those adjacent to the property [[per their own admission) and they are now the attitude is pure condescension towards people that may have concerns [[whether valid or not)

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

And, please - just about everyone in this country has ancestors who farmed. I am two generations from the farm in Ontario. And on my French-Canadian side, I am two generations from the grandmother who had a French pear orchard on the east-side of Detroit in the old St. Clair Heights neighborhood. Not in a park. Just on her lots.

Yes, yes, and my ancestors farmed too.

But are you seriously comparing their experience to that of southern black slaves and sharecroppers? Are you really that historically ignorant?

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 04:24 PM

I still differ - they agreed that they did not go "door to door" - but they did publically plan this installation for two years and they did hold public, advertised meetings.

Also bad were the neighbors [[likely Eric Sabree, who used to be a Detroit City appointee) who used their contacts to get Council to act with no opportunity for the Friends to have input there. As you know, the Friends, working with the city all along, thought they were on the right track. They were blind-sided. Sabree and pals weren't blind-sided.

**De'troiter** · May-31-12, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

And, please - just about everyone in this country has ancestors who farmed. I am two generations from the farm in Ontario. And on my French-Canadian side, I am two generations from the grandmother who had a French pear orchard on the east-side of Detroit in the old St. Clair Heights neighborhood. Not in a park. Just on her lots.

Your overboard support for the objecting neighbors is so resonant of the complaints I heard from black co-workers justifying why they wouldn't take part in City clean-up volunteer actions - it was too much like slavery days.

SWMAP, please tell me that you are reasonable enough to understand that the voluntary farming of your ancestors in this country does not even began to equate with the enslaved servitude farming of Blacks. I don't want to believe that your views are that one-sided, so please clear that up, so I won't have to educate you about American History. Please, prove my assumptions about your views wrong, please!

**jt1** · May-31-12, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I still differ - they agreed that they did not go "door to door" - but they did publically plan this installation for two years and they did hold public, advertised meetings.

Also bad were the neighbors [[likely Eric Sabree, who used to be a Detroit City appointee) who used their contacts to get Council to act with no opportunity for the Friends to have input there. As you know, the Friends, working with the city all along, thought they were on the right track. They were blind-sided. Sabree and pals weren't blind-sided.

Fair points.

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 04:26 PM

I think my ancestors two generations ago lived a subsistance life in cruel Canadian conditions. That's why they left the farm. I am not historically ignorant but I can't support ignorance about urban agriculture on the part of people who had ancestors just like mine. Get on with life. Stop worrying about your ancestors.

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitgayhistoryguy

Common Al, "Dirty" farm? This is not a cotton plantation. It is an apple orchard.

And to some people it's just another kind of farm.

Incidentally, cotton fields are not unbeautiful, particularly in bloom. But they're still not all that great a place to work.

**EastsideAl** · May-31-12, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I think my ancestors two generations ago lived a subsistance life in cruel Canadian conditions. That's why they left the farm. I am not historically ignorant but I can't support ignorance about urban agriculture on the part of people who had ancestors just like mine. Get on with life. Stop worrying about your ancestors.

Of course, it may not be ignorance. Just a view that differs from yours, perhaps one conditioned by a history that's different from yours.

Something I'm consistently amazed by is this thing where some white people tell black people to "get over" their history, while at the very same time dismissing black people's feelings and views as ignorant, silly, and insignificant. You would think the contradiction would be glaring, but it sure never seems to hit them.

**Meddle** · May-31-12, 04:39 PM

Does anyone have pictures of the area before and now?

Is there a reason this spot was selected instead of any of the other vacant land around town, or maybe even the State Fair site?

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 04:42 PM

Because it was a project of Friends of Palmer Park. They have been working to restore the park since 2009 and have incorporated as a non-profit,

**De'troiter** · May-31-12, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I think my ancestors two generations ago lived a subsistance life in cruel Canadian conditions. That's why they left the farm. I am not historically ignorant but I can't support ignorance about urban agriculture on the part of people who had ancestors just like mine. Get on with life. Stop worrying about your ancestors.

The last former slaves in my family died in the 1950s, after moving to Detroit from a Mississippi Share Cropping Plantation. Their memories, stories, pictures and actual personas are very much remembered by several members of my family. How dare you tell me to dismiss that? Would you tell the Jews to forget about the Holocaust, or the Native Americans to forget about their Genocide? I gave you the benefit of the doubt about your racist views, but you proved my assumptions correct. Thank you so very much.

**Detroitnerd** · May-31-12, 04:45 PM

All that racism stuff is over, man.

Wait, let me tell just one more joke. It's not PC but ...

... OK, now, seriously. For real. That racism stuff is really over. Starting ... now!

**detmsp** · May-31-12, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by De'troiter

SWMAP, please tell me that you are reasonable enough to understand that the voluntary farming of your ancestors in this country does not even began to equate with the enslaved servitude farming of Blacks.

I agree with this. However I also think that living next to an apple orchard does not even begin to equate with the enslaved servitdue farming of blacks. I totally get it if the past has made black people not look at farming as a wonderful thing that they'd like to spend their time doing.... but that's a legit reason to not want to live near some apple trees? Come on!

**SWMAP** · May-31-12, 04:55 PM

I wonder why Michelle Obama isn't stymied by her Black ancestors past? She has a huge and wonderful garden in the White House and she uses it as a podium for the FUTURE.

**MSUguy** · May-31-12, 05:10 PM

PPFP posted this on their favebook book page.

Ok, well, let's see. Got done at 3:30! The City Council is requesting that PFPP and the residents on Hamilton sit down and meet with a moderator to come to a compromise - perhaps moving a row or rows of trees that are next to the house on Hamilton, building a fence, or something and hopefully not removing all the trees. The City Council was upset about the approval process - that if something is given to the city as a gift [[like the trees were), city council needs to approve and accept the gift. Recreation and General Services were operating under the assumption and an ordinance that if something goes on inside a city park, they don't need city council approval. Also, the council feels that the orchard should have come to council for approval and not just approval by city administration. When something comes to council, there is a public hearing and they said these few residents that live on Hamilton would have been able to come and voice their opinions and things would have been hashed out before going into place. Unfortunately, by the time the public each could speak for a minute, many of the orchard supporters had already left for work. The folks who are against it cited pesticides, rodents, etc., which are non-issues. Security was cited as an issue for the person who lives right next door to the orchard. The folks on Hamilton felt that they had not been informed - city council said PFPP should have gone door to door for the people living right next door. We agreed that in retrospect, we should have done extra special outreach to those folks.