Mt. Clemens: What's the deal?

[poobert]

I absolutely hate Mount Clemens.

The county seat should be moved somewhere with out parking meters and the city can take their parking meters and shove them where the sun does not shine.

If someone is called in for jury duty, or has to visit the idiots [[putting it kindly) at the Friend of the Court, they should not have to pay to park, or have to ride a stupid shuttle bus. Let the government workers ride the stupid shuttle, and give the guests a better spot. You see Mount Clemens is not about putting it’s best foot forward for it’s guests, it it all about screwing them over on parking meters.

The way Gratiot was routed to go around downtown, was approved by the Brain Trust of the city. Route traffic and people away from downtown, then complain about a lack of traffic downtown?

Most of all I hate Mount Clemens because they forced out the Race Track of a Flea Market.

Bulldoze the darned place for all I care.

Parking meters, whaahh!
http://whitewhine.com/

I had jury duty there when I lived in Macomb County. I don't recall being bothered by parking meters, but I'm generally not a whiny brat.

[mikeg19]

Mt. Clemens is not a destination. When me and my friends decide to go out, it's either downtown, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Ferndale, etc. Mt. Clemens never comes up on a list of places to go. Yes, it is walkable, but it still feels shady and deserted even on a Friday or Saturday night. Plus, I don't know what it is about that place, but there is some sort of attraction with seedy people coming down there. It's pretty much guaranteed that once the bars let out, there will be a brawl in the parking lot. There is always a good police presence, but I still would rather not walk around there late.

[Mikeg]

Gratiot road workers unearth piece of transit history

By Chad Selweski
Macomb Daily
May 31, 2012

Construction workers rebuilding Gratiot Avenue in Mount Clemens have uncovered a small piece of Michigan transit history — a section of the street car rail lines that once carried trollies from Mount Clemens to downtown Detroit.

The rails, constructed more than 100 years ago, were discovered underneath the bricks that once served as the road surface for automobiles. More than 50 yards of dual rails have been unearthed on southbound Gratiot just north of the Clinton River.

Immediately, local historical groups wanted a piece of the action. The Michigan Transit Museum, the Macomb County Historical Society and the Clinton Township Historical Society all want to save a piece of the rails that mark a big piece of Michigan history.

“The interurban [[railroad) was the gateway to Mount Clemens, to the baths [[bathhouses) and other entertainment in Mount Clemens” including a rollercoaster, theaters, music halls, fishing excursions and a gambling hall, said Kim Parr, director of the Macomb County Historical Society. “It provided easy, cheap access to the city.”

[view a photo and read the rest of the article here]

[Bong-Man]

The meters are rarely monitored on weekends. I like the Clem, and go there a lot. It has taken some hits recently though. Downtown Luigi's closed and the owner is going to re-open a new place on Hall rd. The Pantry had an awesome business, but they moved to Hall rd also. There's still enough going on to make a decent evening....Bath City Bistro...Yer Mother's...Orleans....Fitz....BWW..Engine House....all good places to have some drinks. Even Gus' Coney Island is a decent greasy spoon for the price, and that seaburger cheesebuger guy knows what he's doing. I like the Clem because it's real and real people go there. What amazes me is the few upscale restaurants that are only open during the day catering to the County offices and courts. Not sure how those folks are even making it. There's an art fair this weekend, and classic cars usually always line the main street with owners eager for conversation. Don't be afraid to come and slum in The Clem....they'd love your business. By the way, a new restaurant called "Mitt's" is about to open in the old Full Kilt/Damon's place. I'm predicting an early November closure *cough*

[Detroitnerd]

Mount Clemens has good bones. The only problem is that the city basically did the worst possible things a city could have done in the 1950s through the 1990s, mostly by trying to demolish blight away, especially on the black side of town, and sweep away beautiful architecture to build parking lots for businesses that just kept disappearing. I think there was one success story: They got a Holiday Inn once.

It's sad to think that a generation of Mount Clemens mayors oversaw the salt boom, the construction of amazing hotels in varied styles, including Richardsonian Romanesque. By the 1970s, unimaginative mayor Bert VandeVusse was complaining about those "awful, ugly, slimy buildings downtown" and how they needed to be demolished right away. I imagine he felt they stood in the way of a new Tubby's sub shop or a filling station.

But black residents got it the worst. They saw their poor but scrappy neighborhood torn down, replaced with "scattered site" housing, where you couldn't run a business downstairs, but you could get mugged in the shadows going home. The city then built a courthouse on the rest of the land where they used to live, where many of those former residents wound up being sentenced to jail.

But there's some potential there, where it hasn't been too damaged, mostly on the west side of town.

[Krawlspace]

I think most of the reasons I would propose for the current state of downtown Mount Clemens have been covered. I feel it can be boiled down to three things. Lack of diversity in industry, location, and perception. Early on, the city suffered from the same major problem that Detroit had: reliance on a single major industry. With the decline in manufacturing came the decline of Detroit. With the decline of the Bath Houses came the decline of Mount Clemens. The only thing that really kept the downtown retail market going was the county seat and courthouse. The 1960's saw the slow decline after the baths closed, and the 1970's and 80's were bleak for the city with a lot of quick change over for retailers. The 1990's saw a resurgence in nightlife business for the same reason Pontiac did: cheap square footage. When we opened the Emerald Theatre in 2000 there was a very strong upswing in the downtown area through no small effort of the DDA. There were a lot of restaurants opening, and many had daytime and nighttime hours. Bath City Bistro was a huge piece of the puzzle, as was the Post Bar and its brand following. By 2004 I would estimate downtown was 85%-90% occupied with some form of retail, primarily of the restaurant and bar variety. The DDA streetscaping was fairly well executed and in the summer there was a good amount of foot traffic, albeit still primarily from the courthouse. Even the south side of Main St. was growing with the new Bank nightclub. The last chunk of major real estate left undeveloped was the Price building which came very close to becoming lofts under the name Daily Planet [[drawing from the Macomb Daily's earlier presence in the building). When we began the Stars & Stripes Festival and drew over a million people to the city in one weekend in 2007 it really seemed like Mount Clemens had arrived.

Then in 2008 a confluence of factors came together to really take the wind out. Our first weekend at the Emerald saw 5500 people through the door. The momentum of the nightclub coupled with the solid concert lineup brought a ton of people to the area in the evenings. Many of the nearby businesses scheduled their hours and promotions around us just because the numbers would go up. However, as time went by, the excitement began to wane. The M-59 corridor exploded with alternative sources of entertainment, and folks decided not to make the drive, or spend the money at all as the economy trended downward. The era of the big nightclub was nearing its end. By the time the economy hit the wall in 2008 there was already a marked decline in business as so many folks in Macomb County had their incomes tied in some way to the auto industry. The discretionary spending was just not there anymore.

Add into this the distance from anywhere to Mount Clemens. When you compare its location to cities along Woodward which are so central to everything in the tri-county area, it feels like Mount Clemens is on the moon. The directions prompt on the Emerald's phone service went on for 10 minutes with 3 or 4 or 5 turns depending on where you were coming from.

Lastly, the perception of Macomb County is that's it's cheap and dirty. When the owners of the Emerald entered into an operating agreement with the Royal Oak Music Theatre in 2004 I met a long time staff member that was staying on. She had been in RO for a long time, and in a conversation with one of the more well known business owners there she was asked, "Do you really want to work with this Macomb County white trash?" I realize this is only one example, but I can say first hand from working at the Emerald for 8 years and the ROMT for close to 5 years there is a huge difference in patrons. Macomb in general and Mount Clemens in particular has a very white trash reputation among the 20-40 year old bar going populace.

So now "The Clem" is a failed brand. One of the founding spots for night life, The Hayloft, has been seized for back taxes as has The Bank. Johnny G's has a decent night business, but stopped serving lunch [[one if it's mainstays for years). Many of the smaller places like the Fondue Room are closed, and the Emerald is doing 300 people the one night it's a nightclub and has a dismal concert schedule. Rumors abound of an imminent sale or foreclosure. The government takeover of Community Central Bank after the death of it's president has tightened the business loan situation dramatically. Many note holders are having difficulty as there's no personal wiggle room if you have a bad month. I met a friend for dinner there last month and was shocked by the overall feel of a ghost town. It was worse than when we came in in 1999 to lay plans for the Emerald. I cannot see anything in the immediate future that will help with any sort of "culture" expansion. The city is too isolated and has too much of a bad rap for the young folks with money to burn to make the effort. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[Shollin]

I love all the holier-than-thou culture warrior posts on this thread - as though there is some ideal "culture" that all cities simply *must* adopt.

Please, keep pontificating, at the very least for the humor value.

I have to agree. I always read how shopping at box stores and eating at chain restaurants is not "cultured", but cultured is going to Royal Oak, a city that's 90% white, and eating at over priced restaurants. I love Hall Road. All the shopping I need is there and there is a Golden Corral and I can stuff my face until my shirt buttons pop off for $10.

[poobert]

I have to agree. I always read how shopping at box stores and eating at chain restaurants is not "cultured", but cultured is going to Royal Oak, a city that's 90% white, and eating at over priced restaurants. I love Hall Road. All the shopping I need is there and there is a Golden Corral and I can stuff my face until my shirt buttons pop off for $10.

It's funny how I catch so much hell for pointing out this sort of thing which is all too ubiquitous in Macomb County and then Bubba Spraycheese comes along to reinforce those all-too-well-earned stereotypes.

I'm glad that folks are content with their belt-busting, big box lifestyle but what is upsetting is that the same folks don't understand that that just doesn't appeal to everyone and that since there aren't meaningful alternatives around here those folks will go elsewhere. Call me a snob, but I'm not staying here, as I've said before. All my snob friends are gone too, with their college degrees.

God help us when Macomb goes to the polls to vote on the DIA.

[Shollin]

It's funny how I catch so much hell for pointing out this sort of thing which is all too ubiquitous in Macomb County and then Bubba Spraycheese comes along to reinforce those all-too-well-earned stereotypes.

I'm glad that folks are content with their belt-busting, big box lifestyle but what is upsetting is that the same folks don't understand that that just doesn't appeal to everyone and that since there aren't meaningful alternatives around here those folks will go elsewhere. Call me a snob, but I'm not staying here, as I've said before. All my snob friends are gone too, with their college degrees.

God help us when Macomb goes to the polls to vote on the DIA.

I love the irony here. Wasn't Troy that rejecting federal funding for a public transportation center? Wasn't it Troy who rejected funding for their library? You're worried Macomb county will not vote for the DIA but Troy will?

The irony continues when you berate and insult me and then go on to mention that I don't understand what appeals to everyone when you yourself don't understand what appeals to some. The problem with Oakland county is this "culture" is so forced and phony. Ferndale was a down and out city and they throw some bars and condos on 9 Mile and it's all of the sudden cultured again. Move those bars and condos on 9 mile to Van Dyke and Warren is suddenly hip and cultured.

[Gistok]

I love the irony here. Wasn't Troy that rejecting federal funding for a public transportation center? Wasn't it Troy who rejected funding for their library? You're worried Macomb county will not vote for the DIA but Troy will?

The irony continues when you berate and insult me and then go on to mention that I don't understand what appeals to everyone when you yourself don't understand what appeals to some. The problem with Oakland county is this "culture" is so forced and phony. Ferndale was a down and out city and they throw some bars and condos on 9 Mile and it's all of the sudden cultured again. Move those bars and condos on 9 mile to Van Dyke and Warren is suddenly hip and cultured.

Welcome to the forum Shollin.... and take everything he says with a grain of salt... he insults everyone from Livonia to Macomb County and everywhere in between. Funny how he questions why he catches hell, and then in the same sentence fully explains why. Just look at it this way... being a member on this forum requires no IQ testing...

[Shollin]

Welcome to the forum Shollin.... and take everything he says with a grain of salt... he insults everyone from Livonia to Macomb County and everywhere in between. Funny how he questions why he catches hell, and then in the same sentence fully explains why. Just look at it this way... being a member on this forum requires no IQ testing...

I wasn't even quoting his post and agreeing with someone else and he attacks unsolicited. If there were so many people wanted cutesy downtowns than Mt Clemens would have one. I just like how people are so condesending to people who shop on Hall Rd and act like there is something wrong with it. Oakland county really isn't much different. Aside from some forced efforts in Royal Oak and Ferndale, Oakland county has a lot of sprawl. I was recently in Novi and couldn't believe how built up it was.

[poobert]

Move those bars and condos on 9 mile to Van Dyke and Warren is suddenly hip and cultured.

Uh...probably not.

What's all this about culture, anyway? Nobody is talking about culture except you. How many burritos do you have to eat until your shirt buttons fly off to experience Mexican culture? Walkability and cultural institutions and not synonymous, though they often go hand-in-hand.

I'm also no fan of OC for the most part, but tons of young people are flocking to Ferndale, which, as you correctly pointed out, used to be way shitty, so they must be on to something...yes?

I rarely go there but they have an outstanding little theatre and tons of art galleries. Again, maybe all that stuff isn't for you but clearly it is good for the city and the region.

Don't act all indignant. Your argument against walkable downtowns was that you love to go to the Golden Corral on Hall Road to eat till you burst. You left that one wide open. Welcome to the forum, though.

[Bham1982]

IOakland county really isn't much different. Aside from some forced efforts in Royal Oak and Ferndale, Oakland county has a lot of sprawl. I was recently in Novi and couldn't believe how built up it was.

I don't disagree. Oakland and Macomb aren't radically different.

But there are many small differences that, when taken as a whole, make Oakland more desirable for many folks with choices.

Yeah, Oakland is mostly sprawly, but it has four or five strong downtowns [[Ferndale, RO, Birmingham, Rochester), and Macomb has none. It also has a dozen or so safe and walkable communities, and Macomb has none.

There are also differences in landscape [[Oakland is hillier and more forested, with nearly 400 lakes, Macomb is flat and treeless), amenities [[schools, shopping, restaurants, services), and general tolerance [[for whatever reason, Oakland has traditionally had more blacks, Jews, gays, etc.; Macomb has a rep. of being most friendly to conservative Big Three working white ethnics).

But, on the whole, not a gigantic difference. Rochester Hills is basically a somewhat more upscale Shelby Township. Dixie Highway is crap, just like many arterials in Macomb.

[Hermod]

Yeah, Oakland is mostly sprawly, but it has four or five strong downtowns [[Ferndale, RO, Birmingham, Rochester), and Macomb has none. It also has a dozen or so safe and walkable communities, and Macomb has none.

Romeo, New Baltimore, Mount Clemens, New Haven

The Woodward and the Gratiot corridors had both a Grand Trunk steam railroad line and an electric interurban line. There were a lot of little stops along those railroads.

Warren, Utica, and Rochester also had stops on the Michigan Central. Unfortunately, the downtowns of Warren and Utica got "developed out".

[Shollin]

Uh...probably not.

What's all this about culture, anyway? Nobody is talking about culture except you. How many burritos do you have to eat until your shirt buttons fly off to experience Mexican culture? Walkability and cultural institutions and not synonymous, though they often go hand-in-hand.

I'm also no fan of OC for the most part, but tons of young people are flocking to Ferndale, which, as you correctly pointed out, used to be way shitty, so they must be on to something...yes?

I rarely go there but they have an outstanding little theatre and tons of art galleries. Again, maybe all that stuff isn't for you but clearly it is good for the city and the region.

Don't act all indignant. Your argument against walkable downtowns was that you love to go to the Golden Corral on Hall Road to eat till you burst. You left that one wide open. Welcome to the forum, though.

The post I quoted mentioned culture a couple times. For all the tons of young people supposedly flocking to Ferndale, the city lost 10% of its population in the past decade.

It's laughable that people think art galleries and a theater in the suburb is good for the region. That's a joke compared to a place like Chicago.

BTW, I've been to art museums before including The Met.

[Bham1982]

Romeo, New Baltimore, Mount Clemens, New Haven

Yeah, I know there are Macomb downtowns [[and, of course, there are others, like Utica), but none are particularly large or successful, and none are major draws [[in terms of influencing nearby residential property values and the like).

I wasn't really considering the minor ones in Oakland [[Farmington, Berkeley, Clawson, etc.). They're just too small to have a major impact on residential demand.

[poobert]

The post I quoted mentioned culture a couple times. For all the tons of young people supposedly flocking to Ferndale, the city lost 10% of its population in the past decade.

And Warren has lost nearly 30% of its population since 1980. Are you new to Metro Detroit?

It's laughable that people think art galleries and a theater in the suburb is good for the region. That's a joke compared to a place like Chicago.

Yes, it's just hilarious to try to maintain a city with arts and culture. That's why we should just give up and model ourselves after Hall Road, because we'll never be like Chicago.

BTW, I've been to art museums before including The Met.

That is very special for you. You're a special person.

[Shollin]

And Warren has lost nearly 30% of its population since 1980. Are you new to Metro Detroit?

Warren lost 3% of its population the last decade and Ferndale has lost 25% of it's population since 1980. What is your point? What does Warren have to do with this? Did I say young people are flocking to Warren? Nice strawman.

Yes, it's just hilarious to try to maintain a city with arts and culture. That's why we should just give up and model ourselves after Hall Road, because we'll never be like Chicago.

Throwing random art galleries and restaurants is not culture. Culture is built over time and not because some "young professionals" decide to create it with faux ethnic restaurants.

That is very special for you. You're a special person.

More condescension and insults from you. :yawn:

[Shollin]

BTW Warren lost 17% of its population since 1980, not 30. Are you new to the US census?

[kraig]

I have to agree. I always read how shopping at box stores and eating at chain restaurants is not "cultured", but cultured is going to Royal Oak, a city that's 90% white, and eating at over priced restaurants. I love Hall Road. All the shopping I need is there and there is a Golden Corral and I can stuff my face until my shirt buttons pop off for $10.

Personally, I love the culture of Ferndale. I like to go to Buffalo Wild Wings and Rosie O' Grady's. They're both so unique and there's nothing like them anywhere else.

[Hermod]

Like it or not, Hall Road is the retail "downtown" of the Detroit metro area.

Of course when Poobert & Nerds Department Store opens in downtown Detroit in all of its seventy-five story glory with the Magic Choo-choo Station integrated into the ground floor, people will abandon Hall Road in droves and it will become a ghost town.

Start saving the money for your investment, boys.

[Detroitnerd]

If walkable places give some people the creeps, its partially because it confounds expectations. Typical suburbanites recoil because a place sized down to human scale is not what they think of as developed. They find the variety of modes and people confusing, intimidating, maddening. Why are all the buildings so close together? Where do we park? Why are people walking and biking as well as driving? Why are the streets lined with buildings filled with thin, young, attractive people? Where are the fast food joints, the self-service gas stations? Literally and metaphorically, these suburbanites get lost.

[Shollin]

Thin and attractive people are only located in "walkable" areas? I was unaware thin people ate at Buffalo Wild Wings. If Hall road gives people the creeps, it's because they are unable to transverse a parking lot and become disoriented when there are no sidewalks. They find the selection of stores maddening and get confused when one store carries multiple items at low prices. They ask how can one store have so much merchandise? How can it be so cheap? Why do people have shopping carts with all there wares? Where are the niche yuppy stores and fake ethnic resturaunts? Literally and metaphorically, these urbanites get lost.

[Pam]

Like it or not, Hall Road is the retail "downtown" of the Detroit metro area.

I don't think so. We have malls galore in the tri-county area. I don't see why anyone not living in Macomb county would go there.

[Detroitnerd]

Thin and attractive people are only located in "walkable" areas? I was unaware thin people ate at Buffalo Wild Wings. If Hall road gives people the creeps, it's because they are unable to transverse a parking lot and become disoriented when there are no sidewalks. They find the selection of stores maddening and get confused when one store carries multiple items at low prices. They ask how can one store have so much merchandise? How can it be so cheap? Why do people have shopping carts with all there wares? Wear are the niche yuppy stores and fake ethnic resturaunts? Literally and metaphorically, these urbanites get lost.

Yes, Shollin. That's what the piece originally said. I just reversed it for the purposes of amusement. It is, as you may have detected, originally a rant against urbanites from Joel Garreau's 1985 book, "Edge City."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_h4...ity%22&f=false

It just goes to show that exurbia's greatest champions have always gone to great lengths to tease urbanites while extolling car culture. What a pity they must feel so threatened by it and simply can't see it as just another component of a region.