An eye opening jaw dropping trip through Detroit

**Hermod** · May-27-12, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by royce

The quickest solution to the vacant land problem might be to unincorporate those areas of the city. Give them back to Wayne County or the state.

The courts have not been kind to cities seeking to divest themselves of undesirable or uneconomic neighborhoods through unincorporation. It appears that once you have it, you are stuck with it.

**Meddle** · May-27-12, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by PeachLaser

I think an old-fashioned land rush should be held and the city repopulated en masse.

Start with those areas that are largely abandoned and vacant. Bulldoze everything that's left down to the dirt. Re-subdivide the blocks. Instead of 40 or 50 small parcels, make 5 or 10 larger parcels. Give them away free with the condition that the owner must build a permanent residential structure within a year and live in it for at least 10 years [[no landlords, owner occupied only). Offer reduced rates for property taxes and reduced income taxes if the new owner has not lived in the city in the last 10 years.

Select other areas for developments for low income families who want to move to safer housing. Still other areas could be set aside for commercial/retail or manufacturing/tech/light industrial with similar incentives.

That's the easy part.

The hard part is servicing the areas to make them safe and keep them clean.

**stasu1213** · May-27-12, 07:49 AM

Had you noticed the new subdivision that is being constructed on VanDyke just south of I94? I think the side streets are Medbury, Conger or Congress and another street opposite side of the high school's football field.

**evergreen** · May-27-12, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by PeachLaser

I think an old-fashioned land rush should be held and the city repopulated en masse. There are millions of people who would love to own land or a home and, I think, that would be willing to be part of a million people returning to a city and getting it going again. It would be historic. It could be the story of the century. With today's technology, it could easily be done online with bidding for property for a defined time period.

Detroit's problems, in my opinion, are so large and so numerous that it is going to take something massive to turn it around. A modern land rush to repopulate a city with much infrastructure already in place could do wonders for Detroit's future. Thinking out of the box again. : )

Is this a joke? Housing prices in Detroit are so cheap right now that they are practically free. Detroit will not grow again until two basic problems are successfully addressed: public safety and public schools.

The city's plan to induce cops to live in the city which resulted in exactly 6 officers moving in the city demonstrates that you just about can't give away housing in Detroit. The problem is living in Detroit, not obtaining a home here.

**royce** · May-28-12, 02:36 AM

Let me correct and earlier suggestion. Communities like Grandmont-Rosedale or University District should not become autonomous. Instead, the city needs to persuade the residents of these communities to move to Midtown, downtown, or the riverfront. Their tax dollars are needed.

**PeachLaser** · May-28-12, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by evergreen

Is this a joke? Housing prices in Detroit are so cheap right now that they are practically free. Detroit will not grow again until two basic problems are successfully addressed: public safety and public schools.

The city's plan to induce cops to live in the city which resulted in exactly 6 officers moving in the city demonstrates that you just about can't give away housing in Detroit. The problem is living in Detroit, not obtaining a home here.

That's why a HUGE event has to occur, in my opinion. There has to be an influx of people that is large enough in numbers to influence and change the status quo rather than continuing the same. Right now, it seems the thugs, slackards and corrupt government has the upper hand. People trickling in are getting eaten by the current conditions because there are not enough of them to radically change the situation. If, an event can be created like nothing else ever seen in modern America which can get tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of 'citizens' coming back into the city, these numbers can create a complete 'flush' of the city for a fresh restart. It's a 'safety-in-numbers' plan.

**daddeeo** · May-28-12, 06:47 AM

Problem is voters liked guys like Sam Riddle and Detroit has been taken for a ride for years by colorful folks who talk a good story and fill their pockets going out the back door.
As long as you have the night of the living dead people running the streets you won't get a big change in Detroit anytime soon. Crime, unemployent and crappy schools don't get fixed very fast.
I've been waiting for over 30 yrs and haven't seen improvement.

**Stinger4me** · May-28-12, 07:08 AM

What could Detroit do for a tax base? You mention public safety and public schools. Someone has to pay the bills for those two things. The "pie in the sky" and "brains in the clouds" folks won't be able to pull that off. the city has more than it share of thieves and thugs, some of whom sit in pretty nice offices. Too many of the folks who work there leave after work and stay away until the next work day. Many think they can turn the city around, I don't believe that can happen. Remember the phrase from the '70's, "Will the last one out please turn off the lights". The lights going off or going out may come to fruition very soon. Good Luck, Detroit, it was a good place to be from.

**rex** · May-28-12, 09:03 AM

The lights wont be going off any time soon. Its just that the folks remaining in the parts of town that arent downtown or a couple select neighborhoods are overwhelmingly unemployed, underemployed, unemployable or retired. This statement is based entirely on figures and stats I found after a quick internet search. Im just sitting around drinking my coffee. I haven't done any real research into these numbers... So if im way off base I apologize. If the worst of the numbers i looked at is true... that 45% of Detroiters are unemployed [[I hate to believe it) what does that actually mean. 45% of working age adults between 18 and 65? And a lot of these people have kids I would imagine. So what over half of the actual residents of the city live in a household without any earnings from a job? 350,000 people or thereabouts? That cant be right.
1 way or another thats a lot of desperation, and desperate people do desperate shit. A lot of the money that used to be in the west side moved out of town too. And the people that replaced them have less. The new west side is the old east side. Im not trying to say that people from the east side are bad either. Just may not have much money to repair the mostly nice homes they may have bought for cheap.

**313WX** · May-28-12, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by rex

The lights wont be going off any time soon. Its just that the folks remaining in the parts of town that arent downtown or a couple select neighborhoods are overwhelmingly unemployed, underemployed, unemployable or retired. This statement is based entirely on figures and stats I found after a quick internet search. Im just sitting around drinking my coffee. I haven't done any real research into these numbers... So if im way off base I apologize. If the worst of the numbers i looked at is true... that 45% of Detroiters are unemployed [[I hate to believe it) what does that actually mean. 45% of working age adults between 18 and 65? And a lot of these people have kids I would imagine. So what over half of the actual residents of the city live in a household without any earnings from a job? 350,000 people or thereabouts? That cant be right.
1 way or another thats a lot of desperation, and desperate people do desperate shit. A lot of the money that used to be in the west side moved out of town too. And the people that replaced them have less. The new west side is the old east side. Im not trying to say that people from the east side are bad either. Just may not have much money to repair the mostly nice homes they may have bought for cheap.

Some of these families depend on under the table income as well, such as drug dealing.

And yes, that 45% number likely factors in retired and underemployed folks.

I'm also betting over 50% [[if not more like 75%) of the city now depends on some type of government program [[whether it's food stamps, worker's comp., SS, Medicare, Welfare, WIC, tc.) to live on week by week.

If Obama and Snyder said today that they were ending these pregrams, the lion's share of the businesses in Detroit would close their doors overnight. One also have to wonder too how much that drug money actually factors into Detroit's economy, in the event Obama said he was putting an end to the War on Drugs.

**royce** · May-28-12, 09:25 AM

The task to improve Detroit is daunting. The problem with the naysayers is that they don't feel anything can be done. I say that there are things that can be done. However, these things are drastic. If the patient has cancer and to save the patient's life you have to cut off a leg, then you cut off the leg. No discussion is needed. Hey, no one wants to lose a leg, but when that's the only option to saving your life, you take it. Are those people investing in the city just going to let their investments fail without a fight?

In war, when you are overwhelmed by opposing forces, you retreat, regroup, and reassess. Midtown, downtown, and the riverfront are the areas that have the potential to defeat the downward spiral found in the rest of Detroit. That's where you send all of troops, supplies, and efforts. If these areas can repel the onslaught of the negative forces, then Detroit has a chance. Albeit, a smaller Detroit, both physically and population-wise, will result, but hopefully a leaner more efficient and vibrant city will arise.

**Zacha341** · May-28-12, 09:36 AM

Good points! The whole food stamp/ EBT/ EBT 'economy; is deep. Let that end and there'll be mayhem! There are a few grocery stores that would simply close where those programs ended. A marginal, but fairly large grocery store on Rosa Parks at Virginia Park has astronomical prices - and they drop their stock down to just minimal after the 16th of the month when all EBT card cycles are over.

If you are using EBT you can ignore/ justify sky-high prices, but when it's your own money without a cushion you shop elsewhere. You have too... SO stores like this do not concern themselves with deals for cash only shoppers. SO I don't cater to them. Even if I were getting EBT, I'd want those funds to go further.

Originally Posted by 313WX

Some of these families depend on under the table income as well, such as drug dealing.

And yes, that 45% number likely factors in retired and underemployed folks.

I'm also betting over 50% [[if not more like 75%) of the city now depends on some type of government program [[whether it's food stamps, worker's comp., SS, Medicare, Welfare, WIC, tc.) to live week by week.

If Obama and Snyder said today that they were ending these pregrams, the lion's share of the businesses in Detroit would close their doors overnight. One also have to wonder too how much that drug money actually factors into Detroit's economy, in the event Obama said he was putting an end to the War on Drugs.

**rex** · May-28-12, 11:42 AM

cut off the leg to save the life is 1 thing. Chopping off the rest of the body to save the head doesn't work. How big is midtown, downtown and the riverfront? 5 square? How much of the cities population lives in these areas? 7% I have no idea. Its like you have 2 options and not enough resources to do both. You cant dump capital into the areas you mentioned and completely neglect the other 135 square miles and 615 K people. The same time putting money into the rest of the city doesnt generate much in return. What with threads in here discussing why one should bother paying property taxes. Median home value is what? 15K. Costs a lot to patrol, mow, fix streets and lights, fire. Etc. You cant just stop caring about the rest of the city though. Doesn't work.

**313WX** · May-28-12, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by rex

cut off the leg to save the life is 1 thing. Chopping off the rest of the body to save the head doesn't work. How big is midtown, downtown and the riverfront? 5 square? How much of the cities population lives in these areas? 7% I have no idea. Its like you have 2 options and not enough resources to do both. You cant dump capital into the areas you mentioned and completely neglect the other 135 square miles and 615 K people. The same time putting money into the rest of the city doesnt generate much in return. What with threads in here discussing why one should bother paying property taxes. Median home value is what? 15K. Costs a lot to patrol, mow, fix streets and lights, fire. Etc. You cant just stop caring about the rest of the city though. Doesn't work.

You're right about the 5 sq. mi., but as of th 2010 census, downtown only makes up 2% of the population, and over half of the census tracts down there posted a dcline yet.

And I agree with everything else you said. What's happening in Detroit is really a social engineering experiment right now, with a high bust potntial. No other major city in history has done what Detroit is doing, outright said they will not service 98% of its city to only focus on 2% of it. You have to consider the reason Detroit is declining in the first place is the lack of services, cutting them more won't help.

And it's not that I and other "naysayers" don't have solutions. I personally have solution to save the patient without cutting off its legs and arms [[or worse, removing the wrong organ which will kill it off), and I have stated them on here and at other forums, but my solutions will never happen.

Insetad, it is much easier to just move on to areas that aren't going through what Detroit is going through, than to sit around and hope this potntially high-bust experiment is successful.

**GoGrixdale** · May-28-12, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Good points! The whole food stamp/ EBT/ EBT 'economy; is deep. Let that end and there'll be mayhem! There are a few grocery stores that would simply close where those programs ended....

Wonder if the Gateway Marketplace Meier was to forgo EBT dollars would the shift in shopper demographics be worth it. My fear is that even if they hire 'Top Flight Security of the World' , standing in line behind the mounded carts of the EBT crowd will still make it a less than desirable shopping experience.

Maybe only accept EBT on certain days? Certain times of they day? Like 9am -5pm M-F ...hell it could be like getting up and going to work.

While I believe in my heart that "Food Stamps" are a good and necessary thing, the truth is it's just too easy and commonplace. The stigma of being on the program has diminished to the point of almost being the norm. Corruption and abuse is beyond rampant. Whats the motivation to want off?

**Zacha341** · May-28-12, 01:32 PM

Hah! The 'EBT crowd'... I try to not to judge too harshly at the user end, but there is corruption. I got dirty looks sometimes using an EBT card for groceries for family member ailing with cancer who could not always muster the energy go to the store, so I went for them.... you never fully know the circumstances.

It will be interesting to see how Meijers deals with this as I doubt they will be forgoing EBT purchases.

Originally Posted by GoGrixdale

Wonder if the Gateway Marketplace Meier was to forgo EBT dollars would the shift in shopper demographics be worth it. My fear is that even if they hire 'Top Flight Security of the World' , standing in line behind the mounded carts of the EBT crowd will still make it a less than desirable shopping experience.

Maybe only accept EBT on certain days? Certain times of they day? Like 9am -5pm M-F ...hell it could be like getting up and going to work.

While I believe in my heart that "Food Stamps" are a good and necessary thing, the truth is it's just too easy and commonplace. The stigma of being on the program has diminished to the point of almost being the norm. Corruption and abuse is beyond rampant. Whats the motivation to want off?

**illwill** · May-28-12, 02:58 PM

Based on a statistic that was posted on this thread about 6 months ago, the city of Detroit receives an annual property tax return of approximately 14%. As excited as I was to move back into the city, buy a home and commercial property to run my business, that number alone made me stop and say NO WAY! I had always known that if I bought in the city that my property value may never increase and I was ok with that. However, once I saw that stat, 14%, for the first time in my life EVER, I knew that I COULDN'T buy a piece of property in the city. I posted a comment right after that about a relative of mine, who was leaving the city and wanted to leave me her home and I refused to take it based on the fact that I'd become part of that 14%.

I might be wrong but in my personal opinion, the ones who'll be left "holding the bag" or "footing the bill" will be the property owners of this city. I'm assuming property taxes will increase ten-fold at some point and I'll bet my life on it. Especially if you live in one of Detroit's Tony neighborhoods... Downtown, Cass Corridor, River Front, the Villages etc...

That 14% is THE looming issue that will continue to haunt Detroit. Like someone said previously, something drastically MUST happen in the city to make people want to move here by the several hundreds of thousands in a matter of a decade in order to turn our great city around. Otherwise, Detroit will be still be a great city on the River but it'll just be a city of 10 square miles filled with approximately 600K Die hard Detroiter's, beautiful homes and buildings, then 130 square miles of open prairie land beyond that.

Very sad!

**Detroitdave** · May-28-12, 05:56 PM

WOW thanks for all the great feed back ! I like the idea of driving members of the city council and mayor Bing around town, but I'm sure they are well aware of the status of the city , if not they will soon when city council members have to live in their districts .
I was chatting with my uncle and he told me Detroit , at one time, had THE most single family homes than ANY city in the country. I saw that as a plus and minus . On the plus side you had tons of families , large tax base and everyone could have a piece of the "AMERICAN DREAM". after WWII and new freeways and now that the "American Dream" has change and 1,000's of folks are underwater on their houses that tax base is pretty much shot .On the minus side once those great neighborhoods start to go it's like dominos .
What other major cities ,SF, Chicago, NY , Boston, heck even LA, have are TONS of attractive apartments. How about redoing the land that's demmed unusable , build mini developments with cool apartments like Park Lafeyette or since I'm dreaming big ,this, Quartiere Coppede.
I study Urban Planning in Rome .
http://translate.google.com/translat...26prmd%3Dimvns

http://www.google.com/search?q=Quart...w=1024&bih=633

Seeing that many families wont be moving back into the city because of lack of safety and good schools.
I think maybe turning large parts of the city into really nice apartment areas with parks that attract younger people who are whiling to move into the city.
A good area to test is the old Brewster projects ? I think going after younger people is the way to go right now , It's just too tough getting families to move back into the city . Getting people into areas that are pretty much abandon.
I think making those areas attractive to younger people is the way to go .
Just a thought

**PeachLaser** · May-28-12, 07:28 PM

I think my idea of a modern Land Rush is both a Liberal idea while supported by Conservative design. I think the Urban Planners and Designers should view the Detroit landscape as a 21st Land Rush. How do design sustainable neighborhood communities that together become a city. It's a clean slate for you Urban Planners and Designers. How do you design a community that is safe, efficient, welcoming and provides the services of fire, police, education, transportation and emergency services?

How much does it cost for each of these services? If the City of Detroit was to offer specific addresses for the land rush, what are the annual taxes for the property to provide these services? Provide specific numbers: Lot xx; taxes xx; bid price xx + xx

In the urban planning, there should be residential areas befitting the socioeconomic level with transportation; food supply; education and emergency services included. What is the real price?

What if Detroit said, "Here is free land, but here is the price of being a responsible Detroit citizen and the real cost is this: participation as a citizen; being a good neighbor; and caring for the community. Are you willing and responsible enough to accept these conditions?"

**border5150** · May-28-12, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by PeachLaser

If, an event can be created like nothing else ever seen in modern America which can get tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of 'citizens' coming back into the city, these numbers can create a complete 'flush' of the city for a fresh restart. It's a 'safety-in-numbers' plan.

We had something like that about 100 years ago: the rise of the automobile industry. what are the chances of lightning striking twice like that in the city?

I'd like to learn more of the city's history pre-Henry Ford. Clearly there was a city before the auto industry...

**Richard** · May-28-12, 10:51 PM

You could make 1-3-5 acer plots or ranchetts rezone them agri at a lower tax rate,one cow or horse per acer .

**mwilbert** · May-28-12, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by illwill

Based on a statistic that was posted on this thread about 6 months ago, the city of Detroit receives an annual property tax return of approximately 14%.

I do not think that is a correct statistic.

From a 2008 study:

Detroit only collects 87 percent of its property taxes every year, when most cities collect 98 percent. Records showed 33 percent of all properties in the city are tax delinquent, and that more than $165 million is owed in back taxes. Detroit employed a total of two tax collectors to deal with this backlog.

I don't doubt it is worse now, but not that much worse.

What I suspect you saw is something saying that property taxes are about 14% of city revenue.

**illwill** · May-29-12, 11:32 AM

Hey mwilbert-

You're correct. Can you explain the difference to me? Hopefully it's better new that what I thought I was reading.

Thanks.

**SWMAP** · May-29-12, 12:56 PM

I just find it very hard to believe that Detroit has even an 85% property tax collection rate, when property taxes are now only making up 14% of the General Fund. But I can't find a number. I did find this from the well-regarded Detroit-based economist David Littman [[March 2012):

The city ranks fourth in the nation in home foreclosures, further aggravating the decline in property tax collections. Revenue from property taxes, now at $133 million, was $185 million as recently as 2006, a 28 percent decline in just five years. More residents are walking away from their mortgages, leaving average home sales prices at $12,439, compared to $97,848 in 2003. Property taxes now constitute just 14 percent of the city’s general fund revenues. In contrast, even struggling communities like Pontiac and Taylor garner nearly 60 percent of their revenue from property taxes, according to McKinsey & Company consultants. Another fiscally stressing prospect is the bleed-out of city income tax receipts. These plunged 50 percent in a single decade, from $400 million in 2000 to $200 million last year.

**mwilbert** · May-29-12, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by illwill

Hey mwilbert-

You're correct. Can you explain the difference to me? Hopefully it's better new that what I thought I was reading.

Thanks.

I'll try. Detroit gets revenue from many different sources. Property taxes are one of them. The portion of Detroit's revenue that comes from property taxes is around 14%. [[this number depends heavily on what you include in the budget.
http://www.detroitmi.gov/LinkClick.a...%3D&tabid=3159

has a lot of info. I would suggest looking at chart 8. It shows property taxes at 6.6% of revenues, but also notice that almost 50% of the revenue shown is from "enterprise agencies", which mostly means Water and Sewer, and bond sales. If you exclude those, which would be sensible, property taxes are supposed to be about 13% of revenue. That number should include an allowance for the unpaid property taxes [[elsewhere they deduct the expected uncollected taxes) but I can't be sure that it does.

The big tax that doesn't get paid is apparently the non-resident income tax, which I've read is about 50% uncollected.