Belle [[?) Isle...

[Traxus]

You will have the whole bridge full of traffic with people waiting to be allowed

I'm all for handing it over to the state, just so that the islands services can receive more funds-- not just for cleanup but for general maintenance. This is a very valid point though, I'm not sure that bridge would be a very good choke point for traffic. Also, foot traffic should be free.

It's also fair to point out that I was on the island before the rain today and it was looking pretty neat, this is pre grand prix though.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Oh my GOD we've beat this topic to death already. There's like 3 other threads ranting about this shit.

[Detroitnerd]

Oh my GOD we've beat this topic to death already. There's like 3 other threads ranting about this shit.

I know. It seems that the "entry fee" is one of the most stubborn topics on this board. And I can't help but try to explain the other point of view -- all over again.

It would be nice if everybody would search on their own through past threads to find this discussion done in great detail over and over, but let's just say that this "entry fee" thing is a consistent stalemate, a political impossibility, something that has no practical application, and that's why it's a nonstarter.

If everybody's so fired up over all this, why not pick up a little trash? Easier to bloviate on here? I don't mind picking up a little litter now and then, especially if the trash bin is "right there."

[SWMAP]

How funny that you think a fee is a non-starter and thus pontificate that it will never happen. There will be a fee to go on the island in three years.
Also, if people continually return to a topic YOU consider old/finished/decided, perhaps it means that your opinion isn't the absolute final word.

[tvaspen]

Oh my GOD we've beat this topic to death already. There's like 3 other threads ranting about this shit.

Look, if you don't like it, don't read it or comment on it.

[tvaspen]

Or I could just go somewhere else where I don't have to deal with this nonsense. And that's why Belle Isle is a mess.

While you're championing the needs of the poor, the lower-middle, the middle, the upper-middle, and the upper-class are all saying, "Forget it. I'd just rather go somewhere else." And so what do they do? They spend a couple hundred dollars and travel to Chicago as tourists to enjoy Navy Pier.

Look I care about the poor, too. The problem is that if you care about them at the expense of everyone else, everyone else says, "Forget it. I'd just rather go somewhere else."

Believe it or not, I was actually with you until you said,


I spend all day doing work for someone else. We all do. So when I go to the park, I don't want to have to pick up for someone who just didn't care to walk to the nearest trash can.

I understand how punitive user fees are for the very poorest. But the city cannot care for the poor WITHOUT MONEY. Who is punished the most by the uncontrollable crime in the city, the rich with their private security force and locked garages? Or the poor and middle class? Guess what...we don't have ENOUGH MONEY. Who is punished the most when recreation centers close? Is it the rich with their $40 Tiger tickets and tickets to the Fox Theater? Or is it the poor and the middle class? Guess what...we don't have ENOUGH MONEY.

We need money.
We need money.
We need more money.
We need a lot more money.
We need to stop wasting money.
We need to stop people from stealing money.


Money money money money money.

And so when you're telling me that we shouldn't charge people an $0.84 per month charge to use the park because some people can't afford it? I don't care. Not because I don't care about the poor. It's because I care about the poor. Because without attractive city services, there's no reason to live in the city. The people with money leave [[as they have) and the poor who are left have even less money to go around to help them. It's already a mess as it is, and this is coming from someone who grew up here and decided to move back.

Are you really telling me that when you weigh the happiness of 100 poor people that can't afford $0.84 per month vs. the $5,000 in taxes my roommate and I wrote to the city this year, you're choosing them over us?

I hate to be blunt, but this is the essential problem. Detroit can be divided into two groups of people, independent of race, gender, education, or ability. There are those who contribute more value than they receive. Then there are those who consume more value than they give.

We have not enough of the first, and way, way, way, way, way, way, way too much of the second.

Nicely stated.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Look, if you don't like it, don't read it or comment on it.

Yeah right, I could say the same thing to you. Hell, wasn't even referring to you...

Sorry the same 5 people can't stand belle isle [[or its patrons) to the point that they feel the need to incessantly convey the same redundance in every thread that talks about it.

I think we get it. The island looks like ghettoshit when lazy dbags leave their garbage everywhere, so let's sell it to a job creator so we can see how clean it looks from the other side of the manned gate.

[Melocoton]

I hope you no one thinks I'm socking anything to the poor. I don't have anything against the poor. I have something against people littering in the park. The purpose of a nominal fee isn't to price people out of the park. It's to pay for people to keep it clean.

And seriously...if $0.84 per month is pricing anyone out from coming to the park, then they've got bigger problems to deal with.

Maybe you don't, but that's the [[usually left delicately unstated) rationale for the park fee from many people I've read on this board and elsewhere. Keep out the "riff-raff."

And why should the park be free? Because it's a public park. As a taxpayer I've already paid for it. And today it's 84 cents [[I don't know where you came up with that number, but let's assume), but you better believe that in 5 years it'll be $5/month. Once that ball gets rolling it rolls and rolls.

Let this state pay to help the city maintain it properly like they maintain the metro parks 50 miles away from me, a Detroit resident and MI taxpayer. When suburbanites litter, someone cleans up.

[Hamtragedy]

Last summer I drove by Balduck Park after a weekend of Church gatherings. Same thing. Garbage everywhere. Go by Jane Field after a busy weekend. Garbage everywhere. I noticed a Bouncie Party last year at the little park right next to 1300 E Lafayette. From above, I watched as the litter grew and grew and grew. Feeble attempts to pick up the litter and leave them in plastic grocery store bags was only as effective as leaving them next to the jam packed city cans, which were ravaged thru overnight by the hungry.

Finally, I took a group of people to Riverside Park last year [[behind the Riverfront towers) to what is one of the best places to watch the fireworks, while your feet dangle over the breakwater. I was embarrassed, as the grass had not been cut all spring, and the trash cans were overflowing from the previous summer.

I was planning on going to BI on Sunday. There's enough discouragement for a lifetime to go around in this city. Glad that I typed out estimates instead.

Thank god for eastern market.

[Zacha341]

Precisely. The island could look better if people just applied a bit of home training, if they have any...? Perhaps we need a mega thread: Stop Trashing Belle Isle OR LOOSE IT! [[gated property?) Not that it would make that much difference. I've seen people literally hurl stuff out the window there and elsewhere willy-nilly...

I love Belle Isle, am a native Detroiter and use the isle responsilbly as much as I can. This trashing is an outworking of a mentality of not giving a crap... after all someone else can pick it up... I wonder what their house looks like?

I think we get it. The island looks like ghettoshit when lazy dbags leave their garbage everywhere, so let's sell it to a job creator so we can see how clean it looks from the other side of the manned gate.

[Zacha341]

Yeah, I am not giving the Hoedown crowd a pass. Try throwing something out the window of your car in say Dearborn or Livonia! On go the police lights!

But those aren't careless litterers! Those are taxpaying people bringing business into town!

[Bham1982]

I know. It seems that the "entry fee" is one of the most stubborn topics on this board. And I can't help but try to explain the other point of view -- all over again.

We rarely agree, but I'm in 100% agreeement with you on this subject.

Belle Isle was founded as a public park, for Detroiters' free recreational use. There shouldn't be entrance fees attached to municipal parks.

And the fee would be much higher than proposed. A $1 or $2 fee wouldn't even cover the cost of collection. You would need at least a $4 or $5 fee per visit to even make the charge worthwhile. And at that point, you've shut out a huge proportion of Detroiters.

And I have no doubt that the issue is keeping out undesirables. If you institute a fee, the family barbecues and the like are going somewhere else, which would be the point.

[detroitmale]

I can't wait until the state takes control of the management of Belle Isle. That's the only way it's gonna become the gem Detroit once knew..

[iheartthed]

We rarely agree, but I'm in 100% agreeement with you on this subject.

Belle Isle was founded as a public park, for Detroiters' free recreational use. There shouldn't be entrance fees attached to municipal parks.

I don't think there should be an entrance fee. However, I do think there should be a toll for the bridge. And perhaps bus service or a free shuttle service for those who are carless. The toll would go towards park maintenance... since it's probably 99.99999% of all the litter is coming from people driving/riding in cars.

[SWMAP]

I think the family reunions are already paying a fee to rent pavilions, etc. What will happen is the State will charge the standard State Park entrance fees in a few years.

But you and I can't now drive on the island on summer nights because all the cars are jamming all around the circumference. We couldn't even get on the Bridge. Loud music, trash, sex - its a huge hang-out only for a certain age demographic. Not families. I imagine that a lot of the young crowd that packs the Island are not even residents of Detroit, so its charactor isn't a "municipal park." Cruisers no doubt now come from Harper Woods, Inkster, Southfield, etc.

[poobert]

It isn't a Belle Isle thing. It's a Detroit thing. While my neighborhood is clean I am off a main road that runs through the city. I have to clean up the garbage at that end of the block daily. When people here are done with something, they throw it on the ground. I witness it daily.

Interesting because I was quite easily able to train my dog not to shit in our house. I have come to regard these low-lifes as worse than dogs. A dog doesn't shit where it sleeps, takes care of its young, and has sense of loyalty.

Also I have spent some time in non-first world countries that are virtually litter free. You don't have be rich to not systematically destroy where you live.

[corktownyuppie]

You can essentially sum up this [[and most other threads like this) as follows: There is a group of people who are fine with things the way they are. There is a group of people who want things to change...this change is likely to have a negative impact on the the first group.

The first group feels that the changes are unjust, and any problem resulting from the status quo is a product of the environment. The second group feels that the changes are not just desirable but -- more importantly -- financially necessary... even if it means alienating or angering the first group.

The first group resents these changes as they will likely be punished by them.

...so let's sell it to a job creator so we can see how clean it looks from the other side of the manned gate.

People of means have a limited understanding of just how punitive user fees are for the very poorest.

The first group cites principles of democracy. The second group cites principles of arithmetic.

The first group wants the second group to change, arguing that change comes easier for the second group, armed with privileges and resources. The second group wants the first group to change, arguing that they can simply run away from the first group and let them deal with their own problems by themselves.

It's a game of brinksmanship, where the first group exercises every action of due process to the delay the outcome. Where the second group threatens to walk away altogether, despite the fact that at some level, they realize that some interdependence on the first group will never fully go away.

It's exhausting, frustrating, and it feels like hell for everyone.

In the end, I believe that second group will emerge victorious because to want something for nothing violates natural laws when extrapolated to the nth degree. A person who throws trash on the ground when he's 10 feet away from a trash can is essentially saying that I want the place to be clean but don't want to have to do anything to keep it that way. Or, more likely, I don't care if it's clean at all...and if that drives other people away, I don't care about them.

If you keep biting the hand that feeds you, one day the hand will stop coming back. We are approaching that day very rapidly.

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah right, I could say the same thing to you. Hell, wasn't even referring to you...

Sorry the same 5 people can't stand belle isle [[or its patrons) to the point that they feel the need to incessantly convey the same redundance in every thread that talks about it.

I think we get it. The island looks like ghettoshit when lazy dbags leave their garbage everywhere, so let's sell it to a job creator so we can see how clean it looks from the other side of the manned gate.

Wha ...? BWAHAHAHAHA. I think you made the point nicely, DG.

[Melocoton]

You can essentially sum up this [[and most other threads like this) as follows: There is a group of people who are fine with things the way they are. There is a group of people who want things to change...this change is likely to have a negative impact on the the first group.

[/COLOR]

Ooooh, let me guess what group you're in!

Here's my position: I'd like the status quo of neglected public spaces to change, in the direction of them being funded better. This would be in keeping with the contribution I already make in state, federal, and local taxes. I would not like the status quo to change in some form of park privatization or regressive taxation [[aka "user fees").

In fact, it strikes me that you're the one satisfied with a different version of status quo--in this case, the status quo of austerity and budget-cutting of our current economic and political environment. It's not some sort of law of nature that parks and other public services CAN'T be funded properly in this state.

[SWMAP]

If the state starts to fund a municipal park - wouldn't you expect that the State would run it the way it runs parks already - with a user fee?

[corktownyuppie]

If the state starts to fund a municipal park - wouldn't you expect that the State would run it the way it runs parks already - with a user fee?

a user fee at -- ahem -- $.84 per month.

[tvaspen]

Yeah right, I could say the same thing to you. Hell, wasn't even referring to you...

Sorry the same 5 people can't stand belle isle [[or its patrons) to the point that they feel the need to incessantly convey the same redundance in every thread that talks about it.

I think we get it. The island looks like ghettoshit when lazy dbags leave their garbage everywhere, so let's sell it to a job creator so we can see how clean it looks from the other side of the manned gate.

Wow, relax agresso. I was commenting on the stark difference between the Riverwalk and Belle Isle, two miles down the road. The riverwalk was spotless for the most part. There are laws on the books against littering last time I checked, perhaps they should be enforced a bit better, don't you think? I have no empathy for pigs that have zero respect for themselves or their surroundings, like my daddy said; Ya don't shit in your own mess kit. Apparently though, there are people that are okay with it the way it is.

[GPCharles]

One problem I have noticed on Belle Isle is that often the 55 gallon drum garbage cans are full surrounded by a pile of trash. Maybe during heavy usage they should consider more frequent pickups. One reason people may just throw trash everywhere is that if the cans are full, why bother?

[Detroitdave]

It kills me that people are up in arms over a proposed $0.84 per month fee to use the park. That's $0.84 per month per carload. I mean, c'mon. If you can't afford the $0.84 per month...then let's sit down and re-prioritize where you spend your money or where Belle Isle should fall on your list of life concerns.

I agree with Corktownyuppie, Sorry Detroitnerd, The only way to save Bi from further decay, AT THE MOMENT NOT 5-10 YEARS FROM NOW, is to charge a fee for cars to cross the bridge. This could help with the clean up.

And this is not against the "poor" people, if they can spend $3.90 a gallon on gas, they can pay $0.84 per month , if they can't then I doubt they should be driving and hanging out on BI, they should be figuring out how to keep gas in the car no ?
BI is a jewel and its sad to see it this way. if we continue at this rate can you image what it's going to look like ? who would ever visit ?
We have to make a stand sooner or later or it will look like the majority of Detroit and we know how that turned out ?
Beauty ain't cheap and someone has to pay for it and I doubt the folks visiting and leaving trash aren't paying for it .

[Bham1982]

And this is not against the "poor" people, if they can spend $3.90 a gallon on gas, they can pay $0.84 per month , if they can't then I doubt they should be driving and hanging out on BI, they should be figuring out how to keep gas in the car no ?

The cheapest MI State Park passes are $10. The least anyone would spend is $10 on top of gas.

And, yes, that's a significant disincentive to poor folks wanting to picnic [[which is, I think the point, and why I am opposed to mandatory fees).