Curious jury makeup in Bobby Ferguson's case.

**corktownyuppie** · May-15-12, 01:47 PM

Can't be too well-read around here.

That's both true and unfortunate. You can tell society is in trouble when instead of telling the uninformed that their ignorance is holding everyone back, we're telling the smart people that their level of education is off-putting to the masses.

**ragnarok1981** · May-15-12, 01:54 PM

I am starting to think that 313hero is either Kilpatrick, Ferguson, or one of their buddies. The claims that he makes are so far off the mark. You claim that they were good for business, but I see no evidence of that. In fact I know of many cases where businesses were unable to open in the city because they were unwilling to give bribes to Kilpatrick in order to get a business license in the city. The so called loan that was given to Kilpatrick is a mystery to many of us and I doubt anyone can really understand why on earth those business leaders gave him that money.
Now for the claim that Ferguson did good work, that is laughable at best. Let me point out that when the Book Cadilac hotel was being renovated, Kilpatrick met with the owners and made it clear to them that they had to hire Ferguson to clean out the asbestos if they wanted to go ahead with the project. They relented and hired Ferguson eventhough he had no experience whatsoever with asbestos removal, and he ended up going millions of dollars over budget because he was so incompetent.
What Kilpatrick and Ferguson did in this city was no different than the mob in New York dictating what trash removal services you could use, and if you chose not to then you got your business trashed. This was extortion plain and simple.

**Wesley Mouch** · May-15-12, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Um, that might be true...but that's a pretty remedial way of analyzing the situation. Just because Detroit was on the move while KK was in office doesn't mean that KK caused Detroit to be on the move.
...
Seriously, it's like Detroiters live in a xenophobic, closed-off, isolated area where they've never been exposed to any thinking other than their own.

--> Kwame was a great salesman. The bill is now due.
--> The 'xenophobia and closing off' seems intentionally self-imposed. I don't even know what more to say there -- except why?
--> Please explain why 'cave' might vaguely be perceived as racist. I must be naive -- I don't get that -- although your wisdom in avoiding emotionally charged words is evident. But it also points out a problem. Its hard to intelligently discuss solutions when people are hyper-sensitive.

**SWMAP** · May-15-12, 02:13 PM

"cave-dwelling" insinuates retrograde behavior. Alluding to that would be racist, much as the use of the term ghetto for an insular court was perceived to be so racist that the speaker lost her job.

**313hero** · May-15-12, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by ragnarok1981

In fact I know of many cases where businesses were unable to open in the city because they were unwilling to give bribes to Kilpatrick in order to get a business license in the city.

Name One for us please

**Wesley Mouch** · May-15-12, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

"cave-dwelling" insinuates retrograde behavior. Alluding to that would be racist, much as the use of the term ghetto for an insular court was perceived to be so racist that the speaker lost her job.

Thanks. I can see the logic here once I put on my low-self-esteen goggles.

**313hero** · May-15-12, 02:52 PM

Even if he did do all of that to get a Black Owned Business money I still applaud him. Cause if Bobby, Jenkins, White or any of the other Black Construction companies didnt get it it would be a White owned one that did. Most of my life I've Only seen white men doing contruction in the city. Fixing the roads, buildings, sewers etc. The only Black faces I would see on a construction site was the ones who held the "slow" sign. Detroiter's always complained that we never got any significant contracts. We'll get a few but when it came down to the Big money we never did. Now thats not 100% "the White mans fault" because sometimes it takes a larger company with more equiptment to get the job done. Thats understandable and I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem in a city with unemployent through the roof and all of these companies that actually hire Detroiters. And if they did some stuff wrong to get Detroiters employed and money so be it. My opinion. We've suffered too long. The only people that really get big money in Detroit are non Detroiters. Not taking away anything from hard work and dedication but when will we get in???

**Wesley Mouch** · May-15-12, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by 313hero

...And if they did some stuff wrong to get Detroiters employed and money so be it. My opinion. We've suffered too long. The only people that really get big money in Detroit are non Detroiters. Not taking away anything from hard work and dedication but when will we get in???

You'll get in just about the time you stop thinking the deck's stacked against you, and you use that to justify corruption.

While we're on that subject, I've worked with plenty of trades in Detroit -- and the days you describe are gone. The only black face is holding the 'slow' sign?

**ragnarok1981** · May-15-12, 09:36 PM

313hero are you honestly saying that it is ok if they committed crimes so long as it benefited the black community? I seriously hope you don't mean that.
I also see that you seem to tie issues with race with whether or not a person is from Detroit. Well I am a white person who lives in Detroit, and my family has lived here since the 1870's. As I said before and I will say again, I dont give a shit what the race of the person is, if they are pulling the kind of crap that the kilpatricks did then they belong in prison.

**Gannon** · May-16-12, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by 313hero

Name One for us please

LOL...yeah, so y'all can improve your 'shake-down' statistics next go-'round?!

Cheers!

**SWMAP** · May-16-12, 07:48 AM

Here's one: the Montrealer who planned to build a tramway from Downtown to Windsor. He quit after a promising start and wrote a letter to everyone and his brother about how shocking it was to be shaken down by the Mayor and his friends who insisted that a friend of the Mayor be GIVEN 1/3 of the new company because in Detroit a Black person had to be an owner. Canadian not to shocked about having to have a minority investor. He was shocked about having to give a third of his company instead of getting some investment. He was told that's how its done in Detroit.

Another one: the Red Bull Air Race refused to run anything from Detroit in the second year. Detroit, under new mayor really wanted to have those races in our Downtown, but organizers said that previous year they had to pay so many people in Detroit off that they would not return. They did not but ran the races out of Windsor. Detroit lost ticket sales cut and a lot more - millions for local businesses.

**Scottathew** · May-16-12, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by 313hero

But I do have a problem in a city with unemployent through the roof and all of these companies that actually hire Detroiters. And if they did some stuff wrong to get Detroiters employed and money so be it. My opinion. We've suffered too long. The only people that really get big money in Detroit are non Detroiters. Not taking away anything from hard work and dedication but when will we get in???

Huh?

You do understand that he's stealing a bunch of money from the citizens of Detroit and then only giving some of it back to those that work for it, and then pocketing the rest?

And you somehow don't mind because at least it's a black man stealing from the black residents of Detroit instead of a white guy?

Warped!

**aoife** · May-16-12, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

From the Federal Court Eastern District of Michigan website... http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/ [[see juror name selection process)...

The United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan uses a two-step process to select its jurors:
1. A master jury wheel is created by selecting names at random from the following data sources:
[[A) registered voters in the Qualified Voter File [[QVF) compiled by the Michigan
Secretary of State;
[[B) persons licensed by the Michigan Secretary of State to drive motor vehicles;
and
[[C) persons who have been issued a personal identification card by the Michigan
Secretary of State.
2. Names are randomly drawn periodically from the master jury wheel to mail juror qualification questionnaires. Individuals’ answers to these questionnaires determine whether they are legally qualified to serve. If so, the names of those persons are put on a second wheel, a qualified jury wheel.
As prospective jurors are needed for a specific trial or grand jury, summonses are sent to persons randomly selected from the qualified jury wheel. All of these selections are carried out through a properly programmed electronic data processing system for pure randomized selection. The pure randomized process ensures that the mathematical odds of any single
name being picked are substantially equal.

Thank for posting this. I question if they actually follow these protocols. I moved to Wayne County in 1998. Since then I have received a jury summons every year with the exception of two. Based on my answers to questions on the questionnaire I should not be chosen as often as I am [[ie: have you been a victim of a violent crime, have you testified in a criminal trial) but I still get to spend a day every year hanging out in the Frank Murphy [[strangely, never Coleman Young), unless I get lucky and they don't call up my group.

I had a clerk friend joke to me once that I must get selected all the time because I am the kind of juror lawyers like to have- female professional, post grad education, and from the suburbs. It was a joke, obviously, but I wonder how much of a joke it really is?

**SWMAP** · May-16-12, 08:45 AM

female professional, post grad education, and from the suburbs. It was a joke, obviously, but I wonder how much of a joke it really is?

Of course the lawyers and court personnel prefer you!
Is it bad to prefer a demographic in court - someone who would understand the issues, someone who would be able to take the Judge's directions about what the jury should accomplish in the jury room? Someone who will SHOW UP?

**Wesley Mouch** · May-16-12, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by aoife

Thank for posting this. I question if they actually follow these protocols. I moved to Wayne County in 1998. Since then I have received a jury summons every year with the exception of two. Based on my answers to questions on the questionnaire I should not be chosen as often as I am [[ie: have you been a victim of a violent crime, have you testified in a criminal trial) but I still get to spend a day every year hanging out in the Frank Murphy [[strangely, never Coleman Young), unless I get lucky and they don't call up my group.

I had a clerk friend joke to me once that I must get selected all the time because I am the kind of juror lawyers like to have- female professional, post grad education, and from the suburbs. It was a joke, obviously, but I wonder how much of a joke it really is?

Remember that this court we're discussing is 'Federal' court. Cases are handling in the Federal Building [[Levin) near Lafayette and Washington Blvd -- a beautiful and well-maintained structure with some classic courtrooms. Ask nicely and you can see them anytime.

The trials are not one-day or one-trial. If selected, you serve a term as a juror. Several weeks, I believe -- here's from their website again....http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/Information/Jurors/faq.cfm

If I am selected, how long will the trial last?The average trial lasts approximately 3 - 5 days, however, some trials may continue for several weeks.
Will I be asked to serve on more than one jury during my term of service?It is possible, but rare for someone to serve on more than one jury in the space of the two-week or four-week term of service. If someone serves on a short trial or is selected for a jury and the case settles, he or she is still required to call in for the rest of their term of service.

**ragnarok1981** · May-16-12, 10:16 AM

Something that has not been mentioned is that Ferguson is not a Detroit resident, he lives or at least lived in Southfield. So claiming that the jury is not representative of Detroit is a farce.

**Lowell** · May-16-12, 12:26 PM

Is this another reason why jury attendance is scoffed? The terms of enslavement of jury duty drive me nuts. Just about everybody else in the room is making six figures but the jurors, under penalty of law, get this.

Also from Wesley Mouch's link...

What if I don't drive? Not driving does not excuse you from jury Service. Public transportation may be available. Please be advised taxi fare is not a reimbursable expense.
Will I have to pay for parking when I report for jury service? Yes, with the exception of jurors summoned to Bay City.
If you are reporting to Ann Arbor, Detroit, Flint or Port Huron you will be responsible to pay for your parking when reporting. A parking allowance will be included in your attendance check.
Please do not leave and then return to the parking lot duing the day unless you are willing to pay the fee for parking a second time. You will only be reimbursed one parking allowance per day.
Jurors in Bay City do not have to pay for parking. They will receive a parking permit with their summons and directions to a designated lot.
...
How much will I be paid and when can I expect the check? You will be paid an attendance fee of $40.00 per day and mileage for traveling to and from the federal court facility. Mileage is computed from the center of the zip code in which you reside to the court location. A check for your attendance fee, mileage and if applicable, parking reimbursement will be sent your home address approximately two weeks after jury service has been completed.
Are my attendance fees taxable? Yes, your jury attendance fee is taxable [[but not your travel reimbursement). If you should happen to make more than $600 in attendance fees, you and the IRS will receive a form 1099 from the court.
Is lunch provided by the court? No, but you may bring a snack or lunch with you. The lunch hour is usually between 1 - 2 p.m. but this may vary. None of the court locations have any formal eating facilities. There are vending areas and a small snack shop located in the Detroit courthouse. The jury clerk can provide you with information on various restaurants. If you do wish to drive to a restaurant, please note that you will not be reimbursed for your parking a second time.

**Packman41** · May-16-12, 04:34 PM

Curious jury makeup? Maybe this article from yesterdays Detroit News would help explain things [[emphasis mine):

Earlier Tuesday, lawyers involved in the case finalized picking four alternate jurors — two white men, one white woman and a black man. Prosecutors removed another black man and an Indian man from the pool despite renewed defense complaints about a lack of diversity on the jury.

Defense lawyers objected to prosecutors dismissing the black man, but U.S. District Judge David Lawson said the attorneys failed to show intentional discrimination.

The man expressed some bitterness toward the government and said he could not vote to convict Ferguson even if prosecutors proved the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

"It's a very easy call," Lawson said in letting prosecutors dismiss the black man.
Source: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz1v4RcborO

Wow. Is there any wonder???

**Meddle** · May-16-12, 04:37 PM

And then again, there are those who just don't want to serve on any jury, let alone one in a high profile case, and will make a statement like that just to ensure they get excused.

**Wesley Mouch** · May-16-12, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Packman41

Curious jury makeup? Maybe this article from yesterdays Detroit News would help explain things [[emphasis mine):

Earlier Tuesday, lawyers involved in the case finalized picking four alternate jurors — two white men, one white woman and a black man. Prosecutors removed another black man and an Indian man from the pool despite renewed defense complaints about a lack of diversity on the jury.

Defense lawyers objected to prosecutors dismissing the black man, but U.S. District Judge David Lawson said the attorneys failed to show intentional discrimination.

The man expressed some bitterness toward the government and said he could not vote to convict Ferguson even if prosecutors proved the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

"It's a very easy call," Lawson said in letting prosecutors dismiss the black man.
Source: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz1v4RcborO

Wow. Is there any wonder???

Nothing curious. It appears to me that the system is working very well.

**Meddle** · May-31-12, 05:12 PM

It may not be perfect, but the jury selection process in the Eastern District of Michigan is constitutional, a federal judge ruled today.

U.S. District Judge David Lawson issued the ruling in response to a request to scrap the jury in the pending bid-rigging trial of contractor Bobby Ferguson, longtime friend of ex-Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. The defense had asked for a new jury pool, arguing the one used in the Ferguson trial contained too few African Americans. Out of the 116 prospective jurors, eight were African American. The final jury selected included 10 white people and two African Americans.

Lawson allowed the trial to continue with that jury, but said he would issue a written opinion, noting the lack of diversity in jury pools is a longstanding issue in the Eastern District of Michigan.

Lawson concluded that despite repeated criticisms, the selection process does not intentionally exclude minorities and passes constitutional muster.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012053...constitutional

**Wesley Mouch** · May-31-12, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

http://www.freep.com/article/2012053...constitutional

Perhaps the court should make a rule that each time you claim race discrimination you need to put a dollar into the jar. The funds could easily cover Detroit's overspending on staff and solve all pension funding now and forever.

**daddeeo** · June-11-12, 08:47 AM

Picking the jury is usually where the won or lost these days. That being said. Here's a guy they should give a fair trail...and then hang him.

**kenp** · June-11-12, 02:41 PM

This is a federal trial, why does it have to take place in Detroit? Reminds me of the first Sam Riddle case, the lone wolf jurer who would not listen to reason no matter what proof was layed out.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-11-12, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by kenp

This is a federal trial, why does it have to take place in Detroit? Reminds me of the first Sam Riddle case, the lone wolf jurer who would not listen to reason no matter what proof was layed out.

Kenp -- I think this was laid out earlier -- but in case you missed it...

This trial is being held at Federal Court -- not in a local court. Federal Court for the Eastern District of Michigan is held at the Levin Federal Building on Lafayette. The alleged crime was a Federal offense.

Mr. Riddle's team is playing the race card precisely because the juror pool at the Federal Court is not mostly Detroiters -- but represents all the people of SE Michigan. Somehow, in the minds of a racist, this suggests something unfair, when in fact its quite fair, appropriate, and just.