Curious jury makeup in Bobby Ferguson's case.

[ragnarok1981]

I admit that I only really skimmed this thread but I don't believe I saw anyone address the real problem here. Whether or not you agree with this or not the fact of the matter is that the prospective jury pool will be skewed towards caucasians due to the fact that they are more likely to respond to a jury summons. In addition, in places like Detroit and other communities that have had a large black population there is a problem with many people no longer being at their registered address so they dont even get the jury summons. These are two factors that have been sighted by the committee the court has to try and figure out how to get a better pool of jurors.
Now with that being said I personally don't believe there should be any racial factor in a jury anyway, so long as they are human then they are your peers. We claim to want to move beyond racism but we inject it into matters like this.
As for Ferguson, I think we can for the most part agree that unless the prosecutors royally fuck up then he is going to be found guilty because he is guilty as sin. The man is a crook and a thug. Remember his previous brush with the law when he pistol whipped an employee who he claimed was having an affair with his wife? Read the details on this case and I think you will agree that there is very little doubt about his guilt. This guy was stacking the deck in his favor and using intimidation to get what he could not get through kick backs and bribes.

[catch22]

I've been a registered voter since 1972, living in Wayne County [[Garden City, Detroit, Westland, Dearborn, Livonia) since then. I never got a jury summons until 2005, then the floodgates broke:

June 2005 - Wayne County 3rd circuit, not selected
July 2006 - Wayne County 3rd circuit, not selected
May 2008 - Wayne County 3rd circuit, selected for a 3-day trial
August 2009 - Federal grand jury summons, not selected
September 2009 - Wayne County 3rd circuit, not selected

Nothing since. Whatever system they use, I can't see any rhyme nor reason to it.

[Wesley Mouch]

From the Federal Court Eastern District of Michigan website... http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/ [[see juror name selection process)...

The United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan uses a two-step process to select its jurors:
1. A master jury wheel is created by selecting names at random from the following data sources:
[[A) registered voters in the Qualified Voter File [[QVF) compiled by the Michigan
Secretary of State;
[[B) persons licensed by the Michigan Secretary of State to drive motor vehicles;
and
[[C) persons who have been issued a personal identification card by the Michigan
Secretary of State.
2. Names are randomly drawn periodically from the master jury wheel to mail juror qualification questionnaires. Individuals’ answers to these questionnaires determine whether they are legally qualified to serve. If so, the names of those persons are put on a second wheel, a qualified jury wheel.
As prospective jurors are needed for a specific trial or grand jury, summonses are sent to persons randomly selected from the qualified jury wheel. All of these selections are carried out through a properly programmed electronic data processing system for pure randomized selection. The pure randomized process ensures that the mathematical odds of any single
name being picked are substantially equal.

[313hero]

As for Ferguson, I think we can for the most part agree that unless the prosecutors royally fuck up then he is going to be found guilty because he is guilty as sin. The man is a crook and a thug. Remember his previous brush with the law when he pistol whipped an employee who he claimed was having an affair with his wife? Read the details on this case and I think you will agree that there is very little doubt about his guilt. This guy was stacking the deck in his favor and using intimidation to get what he could not get through kick backs and bribes.

That Statement is the problem. If you were on the jury you would go in there thinking he's already guilty and the prosecutors would have to mess up for you to say he's not guilty. Now it should go like this. He's innocent untill the prosecution proves he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden is supposed to be on the prosecution. So he's guilty and you hope the prosecution can make it easy on ya huh???. Thats the MF'n Problem dude. ITS NO WAY POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO GET A FAIR TRIAL IN MICHIGAN. You people havnt even heard the facts and he's guilty. Thats the problem with the media. The media's been telling all of us that they are all guilty. And it is a difference when it comes to race, well at least in my circles and readings. Ever read the comments on the freep, detnews, etc. They are horrible. White people HATE him and KK with a passion. What they did to them I Dont know. But its a shame how much Hatred is spewed on these guys. They "monkey's, gorrilas, dumg niggers, etc." I've bout read it all in comments about these guys. Its a Damn shame its 2012 and you cant just have your day in court.

Question for you White People. Why do yall HATE so hard on anybody Black yall dont like. I Know KK and Ferguson messed up. I know that. But I dont hate them for it. And I can almost guarantee they didnt do most if not non of the things they been charged with. I dont see the same amount of Hatred when White people commit crimes our are accused of them. Yall dont come with so much Hatred. yall come with excuses/reasoning.

As far as jury duty I've only been summoned once in my life. I went down there cause I was excited and really interested in the process. I filled out the forms sat in the room for about 45mins. I was one of the only Black people there. After the 45mins-1hr was up I was called to the desk and told I could go home. I asked why and they said "they didnt have a case for me" WOW. I thought to myself I'm quite sure its some Black People in my age, economic and social group thats on trial.

[Meddle]

I dont see the same amount of Hatred when White people commit crimes our are accused of them.

So, you haven't been reading about the case out of Grosse Point Park? Or the Scott Peterson Case? They are probably a few dozen others also.

I thought to myself I'm quite sure its some Black People in my age, economic and social group thats on trial.

That would be .... 'I'm quite sure there are some Black People in my age, economic and social group that are on trial.' It's all in how you present yourself.

[corktownyuppie]

That Statement is the problem. If you were on the jury you would go in there thinking he's already guilty and the prosecutors would have to mess up for you to say he's not guilty. Now it should go like this. He's innocent untill the prosecution proves he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden is supposed to be on the prosecution. So he's guilty and you hope the prosecution can make it easy on ya huh???. Thats the MF'n Problem dude. ITS NO WAY POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO GET A FAIR TRIAL IN MICHIGAN. You people havnt even heard the facts and he's guilty. Thats the problem with the media. The media's been telling all of us that they are all guilty. And it is a difference when it comes to race, well at least in my circles and readings. Ever read the comments on the freep, detnews, etc. They are horrible. White people HATE him and KK with a passion. What they did to them I Dont know. But its a shame how much Hatred is spewed on these guys. They "monkey's, gorrilas, dumg niggers, etc." I've bout read it all in comments about these guys. Its a Damn shame its 2012 and you cant just have your day in court.

Question for you White People. Why do yall HATE so hard on anybody Black yall dont like. I Know KK and Ferguson messed up. I know that. But I dont hate them for it. And I can almost guarantee they didnt do most if not non of the things they been charged with. I dont see the same amount of Hatred when White people commit crimes our are accused of them. Yall dont come with so much Hatred. yall come with excuses/reasoning.

As far as jury duty I've only been summoned once in my life. I went down there cause I was excited and really interested in the process. I filled out the forms sat in the room for about 45mins. I was one of the only Black people there. After the 45mins-1hr was up I was called to the desk and told I could go home. I asked why and they said "they didnt have a case for me" WOW. I thought to myself I'm quite sure its some Black People in my age, economic and social group thats on trial.

I don't think he's guilty because he's black...though I'm sure there are certainly some hate-spewing racists who do think that. I think he's guilty because I've stayed too informed about the case.

I'd say that if I had heard nothing about the case for the last 2 years and didn't know anyone in the US Attorney's office, then I would be happy to give him a fair trial.

[Wesley Mouch]

...<snip>...As far as jury duty I've only been summoned once in my life. I went down there cause I was excited and really interested in the process. I filled out the forms sat in the room for about 45mins. I was one of the only Black people there. After the 45mins-1hr was up I was called to the desk and told I could go home. I asked why and they said "they didnt have a case for me" WOW. I thought to myself I'm quite sure its some Black People in my age, economic and social group thats on trial.

They do this all the time. They manage the inventory of jurors just like a store manages the inventory of Cheerios. In the back, there's a control room with special information on the race of jurors. Wearing white pointed cloaks to hide their identity, they use x-ray to determine your race and then send you home if you don't meet the quotas on the big board. Yes, that very same big board from Dr. Strangelove that was no longer needed since the cold war is over.

[SWMAP]

313Hero wrote this about Jury Duty somewhere in Wayne County [[ I presume because of the area code he is flaunting):
"I was one of the only Black people there."
I will also assume that he is not talking about an experience in Federal court because so few people ever get called there. So let's assume that he is talking about an experience in the late Recorders Court or in the 36th District Court or the Circuit Court.

If that is the case, he is obviously flat-out lying. I have been in all those jury waiting rooms and, although I have sometimes been sent home after a few hours as 313Hero was, I, as a white person, have never once been part of a majority in those rooms. In Recorders Court and in 36th District I am a minority. Recollecting Circuit Court, I would say I never saw a lack of black potential jurors. Although I have been called many times and have served three times on juries, I have never been called to Federal Court.

I don't want to serve on juries. Its too hard in the jury room. That's where you see how Black people want to forget and forgive and not convict their own. Once, when I was the single white person on a jury we even had an old black man open his Bible in the jury room and read an admonition to the Church ladies there about "forgiving 70 times 7." So they did decide that the defendant, a crack dealer and molester, was "not guilty" despite overwhelming testimony. Finally I gave them my vote after I realized that I don't care anymore.

[De'troiter]

The problem is that racism is so much apart of American society until people judge others because of their race even when they don't realize that they are doing it. ABC aired a show that tested the public's reaction to two teens trying to get a bicycle in park. The only difference in the teens was that one was white and one was black. The white kid stuggled with the bike for an hour, without any interruption but immediately after the black kid did it, he was instantly mobbed by so called "Non Racist" white people.

I think this show pretty much summed up the racial and social inequality in America. If you are Black you are automatically guilty in the eyes of society, in spite of them not being conscienciously racist. [[I do believe Ferguson is guilty based on the facts of the case, for those who were wondering.) Until this is fixed there needs to be Black representation on the juries of criminal cases in order to balance justice. I wish that I didn't have a race card to pull, but it is, what it is.

Here is the clip on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kV_b3IK9M

[Meddle]

Once, when I was the single white person on a jury we even had an old black man open his Bible in the jury room and read an admonition to the Church ladies there about "forgiving 70 times 7." So they did decide that the defendant, a crack dealer and molester, was "not guilty" despite overwhelming testimony. Finally I gave them my vote after I realized that I don't care anymore.

That's where you refuse to vote and contact the Judge about Juror misconduct.

[corktownyuppie]

The problem is that racism is so much apart of American society until people judge others because of their race even when they don't realize that they are doing it. ABC aired a show that tested the public's reaction to two teens trying to get a bicycle in park. The only difference in the teens was that one was white and one was black. The white kid stuggled with the bike for an hour, without any interruption but immediately after the black kid did it, he was instantly mobbed by so called "Non Racist" white people.

I think this show pretty much summed up the racial and social inequality in America. If you are Black you are automatically guilty in the eyes of society, in spite of them not being conscienciously racist. [[I do believe Ferguson is guilty based on the facts of the case, for those who were wondering.) Until this is fixed there needs to be Black representation on the juries of criminal cases in order to balance justice. I wish that I didn't have a race card to pull, but it is, what it is.

Here is the clip on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kV_b3IK9M

Racism is a very difficult topic on which to gain common understanding because very few people have had the perspective that comes with having been on "both sides" of racism. And, frankly, the same goes for socio-economic power [[which, yes, has some correlation to race). Very few people have been on both sides of the socio-economic power dynamic.

And even for those few who have been on both sides of the power dynamic...we do have some ability affect where we are on the socio-economic scale. We have zero ability to change our race and even less ability to change others' peoples perceptions that they associate with our race.

So for those of you, whether black or white or other, who have not had an opportunity to candidly and openly speak with someone who has lived on both sides of racism and both sides of socio-economic power, I encourage you to do so...and to do so with an open mind.

I've had several opportunities to do this, and it's been eye-opening. Even last weekend, I spoke with a young black woman whose parents actually immigrated here from Liberia [[which is an African country founded by former American slaves who had been freed.) We talked over drinks for an hour about what her experience of "being black" in America was like, as well has how starkly it differed from those blacks who've been here for generations.

Also eye-opening, Liberians don't have slaves, but they have servants. And the way those servants are treated both physically and emotionally borders on the criminal.

I know that conversations about race trigger a lot of emotions. I know that anyone here who as posted has lots of opinions. I encourage you to stay open-minded to those experiences which may differ from your own and perhaps to seek someone out who's had the enlightenment that comes with having walked on both sides.

As for the jury issue, it's one that will get better with more conversation and more understanding. We a have a long way to go, but we've also come a long way. A little compassion for the experiences [[many of which are painful) of people not like yourself can go a long way to shifting the conversation. And that said, there will also be many whose beliefs are so hardened that they will never change.

This is sad, unfortunate, and it's also the way things are. All you can do is do your part to push the conversation an inch forward as much as you can.

[313hero]

I don't think he's guilty because he's black...though I'm sure there are certainly some hate-spewing racists who do think that. I think he's guilty because I've stayed too informed about the case.

I'd say that if I had heard nothing about the case for the last 2 years and didn't know anyone in the US Attorney's office, then I would be happy to give him a fair trial.

Exactly- You've stayed "informed" about the case right? Well who are you getting your information from??? The Media??? Well they have been reporting ONLY what the prosecutors leak to them. Why??? To Taint the Jury pool. You have your opinion of his guilt and havnt even seen any evidence. Remember the "Manoogian Party" well the media basically forced it upon us that is did happen all to find out it didnt. I'm a firm believer in Innocent until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Am I wrong for that???

[313hero]

313Hero wrote this about Jury Duty somewhere in Wayne County [[ I presume because of the area code he is flaunting):
"I was one of the only Black people there."
I will also assume that he is not talking about an experience in Federal court because so few people ever get called there. So let's assume that he is talking about an experience in the late Recorders Court or in the 36th District Court or the Circuit Court.

If that is the case, he is obviously flat-out lying. I have been in all those jury waiting rooms and, although I have sometimes been sent home after a few hours as 313Hero was, I, as a white person, have never once been part of a majority in those rooms. In Recorders Court and in 36th District I am a minority. Recollecting Circuit Court, I would say I never saw a lack of black potential jurors. Although I have been called many times and have served three times on juries, I have never been called to Federal Court.
.

You do know Recorders court been gone for decades now right? and yes I was at the Federal Building when I had to go to Jury duty, and Yes I was the only Black person I saw there and yes I was told I could leave. Recorders court allowed people to have a jury of their peers. So if you was the only white person on a jury that would make sense wouldnt it? Especially if its a Black person on trial. Detroit is so segregated its not that likely that many White people would fit into sme of our peer groups. The first time I met a White person around my age that I kicked it with, was when I was 22. B4 that the only white people I came in contact with was teachers and stuff like that. I was litterally 22 when I had a real conversation with a White person in my age group. So why is it that most Black cases/trials in a 85% Black city end up with only around 10% on their juries??? Yall read the comments, yall know what people say, yall know how some of yalls friends think and act so stop acting like its not a problem.

[corktownyuppie]

Exactly- You've stayed "informed" about the case right? Well who are you getting your information from??? The Media??? Well they have been reporting ONLY what the prosecutors leak to them. Why??? To Taint the Jury pool. You have your opinion of his guilt and havnt even seen any evidence. Remember the "Manoogian Party" well the media basically forced it upon us that is did happen all to find out it didnt. I'm a firm believer in Innocent until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Am I wrong for that???

You are not wrong for that. That precisely the hallmark of an ideal juror. And, yes, would be a superior juror to myself because what I do know from the prosecutors has tainted my opinion so severely that it would be hard for me put those biases aside.

I get the impression that many people already think he's guilty based on what they know. I am one of those people. But I'm also open-minded enough to wait and see what happens. I just don't think I'd make a good juror because my preconceived notions are too strong.

And yes, innocent until proven guilty is the legal standard. It's not the standard for public opinion, though, and that's what's making this difficult. Can be people put aside their understanding of the public opinion so that they can be a good juror. I cannot. But I believe that there are others who can, and it sounds like you may be one of them.

[corktownyuppie]

I was litterally 22 when I had a real conversation with a White person in my age group. So why is it that most Black cases/trials in a 85% Black city end up with only around 10% on their juries???

Well, it's not just a problem for you. The courts don't like it either. The question is what do we do about it on a system-wide basis?

And, by the way, I do want to let you know that the sheer majority of white people do not think the way they are portrayed by the comments on freep.com or detnews.com.

[ragnarok1981]

I do not think he is guilty based on what I read in the media, I think he is guilty based on what I read in the case file. Read the indictment and the associated filings by the prosecutors, they have a very strong case against him. And I would also state that I would be just as angry at him if he were white, brown, or purple polka dotted. He and his buddies in the former administration ran this town like they were old time gangsters. I also would add that anyone living in Detroit should be furious with him because he bilked the city out of millions of dollars from contracts that he illegally obtained through intimidation or through getting unfair treatment because of who he was friends with. There is so much that has gone on in this city as part of the whole "kilpatrick mafia" [[yes I am calling them a mob family because really that is just about how they ran things) that has gone unreported that would infuriate anyone who heard it. What really bugs me is that there are still people who claim that KK and BF are being picked on because they are black and were successful. To me it seems like there is another kind of racism going on here in that because these guys are black it is like they can almost do no wrong, and if they get charged with a crime it must be because they are black and not because they did something wrong.

[corktownyuppie]

Admittedly, one subsect of the American population I have a hard time with is the "My Country Right or Wrong" group. And, yes, in Detroit there are some who live by the "My People Right or Wrong" group. You could talk for months about the psychological roots of this, but essentially there are people for whom loyalty is a higher value than justice.

Then you also have people who are trying to be just, but their worldview are so far apart from yours that it's hard to see eye to eye. That's understandable. I had a horrible experience with the Detroit Fire Department over the weekend. Thankfully, I have had more good experience than bad. But if all I had was the shit experiences, then it would be hard to blame me for assuming the worst about them all the time.

Yes, both of these sets of people can be infuriating to work with. But I just want to point out that they're not limited to people of one race or ethnicity. It's a universal thing that crosses time and distance.

[313hero]

I do not think he is guilty based on what I read in the media, I think he is guilty based on what I read in the case file. Read the indictment and the associated filings by the prosecutors, they have a very strong case against him. And I would also state that I would be just as angry at him if he were white, brown, or purple polka dotted. He and his buddies in the former administration ran this town like they were old time gangsters. I also would add that anyone living in Detroit should be furious with him because he bilked the city out of millions of dollars from contracts that he illegally obtained through intimidation or through getting unfair treatment because of who he was friends with. There is so much that has gone on in this city as part of the whole "kilpatrick mafia" [[yes I am calling them a mob family because really that is just about how they ran things) that has gone unreported that would infuriate anyone who heard it. What really bugs me is that there are still people who claim that KK and BF are being picked on because they are black and were successful. To me it seems like there is another kind of racism going on here in that because these guys are black it is like they can almost do no wrong, and if they get charged with a crime it must be because they are black and not because they did something wrong.

Exactly- you formed your opinion solely on what the prosecution says. WOW. You do realize that they are not always right. you do realize that plenty of people are found NOT GUILTY. you also realize that there are many INNOCENT people in jail because of people like YOU.

[Wesley Mouch]

Exactly- you formed your opinion solely on what the prosecution says. WOW. You do realize that they are not always right. you do realize that plenty of people are found NOT GUILTY. you also realize that there are many INNOCENT people in jail because of people like YOU.

Your point is valid -- but they did say they formed the opinion based on information -- not simply wild speculation.

There's nothing wrong with a strong opinion -- so long as its matched with a willingness to listen to more information and adjust your opinion should the facts speak otherwise.

I don't read into his post that he'd convict without a fair hearing. But I think he's entitled, and perhaps obligated to have his opinion based on the behavior of the accused.

Lack of outrage at the behavior of the Kilpatrick 'gang' is a real problem that the poster touches upon.

[Scottathew]

Let's no confused our positions. We're not on the jury. We're simply "public opinion", and we can make some pretty big leaps of faith.

I think Ferguson is guilty.

However, if was on a jury, I would approach it differently, and I would do my job, and only convict if there was evidence that was beyond a reasonable doubt.

That standard of evidence does not apply to my opinion that's stated on a message board.

[313hero]

Your point is valid -- but they did say they formed the opinion based on information -- not simply wild speculation.

There's nothing wrong with a strong opinion -- so long as its matched with a willingness to listen to more information and adjust your opinion should the facts speak otherwise.

I don't read into his post that he'd convict without a fair hearing. But I think he's entitled, and perhaps obligated to have his opinion based on the behavior of the accused.

Lack of outrage at the behavior of the Kilpatrick 'gang' is a real problem that the poster touches upon.

"lack of outrage at the behavior of the Kilpatrick "gang""- is do to the fact that many people in this city dont view them that way. People who actually live in Detroit and involved in the process pretty much loved those guys. Heck even the business community liked them. i.e. Dan Gilbert and some others giving him a farewell Loan for example. The fact they had to make a law so KK cant run again cause they knew he would win. The fact that as soon as he got out of office "others" came in licking their chops and taking control of Detroit and its assets. The fact that Ferguson actually did Good work and hired almost 90% Detroiters. The fact that they been in business for over 30 or 40 years. And the fact that everybody saying something against them are caught up in crimes they commited and agreed to testify against them for lighter sentences. The fact that Detroit was on the move while KK was in office and the fact that its alot worse since he's been gone. That's probably why its a "lack of outrage". Cause people are more "outraged" that he's gone.

Do you guys agree that the media in this town has not given these guys a fair shake??? I doubt it.

[313hero]

P.S. How can you be an impartial juror if you come into the room already thinking someone is guilty. depending on how bone headed you are it will be guilty untill proven innocent. For Example: if I was on the Zimmerman Jury he would be guilty and I wouldnt care less what the defense came up with. Is that right? nope. But thats the way it is. I can almost guarantee he wont have a jury of 10 Black People, 1 White and 1 unknown

[Scottathew]

I can almost guarantee he wont have a jury of 10 Black People, 1 White and 1 unknown

He'll probably have a jury that looks like the jurisdiction of where he committed the crime.

Ferguson is accused of a federal crime in the US Eastern Michigan district.

As to whether or not I could be impartial, I most certainly would try in either case, but I think both Ferguson and Zimmerman are guilty based of the facts I've seen. It would make sense for me to be dismissed in either case, but if for some reason I wasn't, I would do my best to render a verdict based on the higher standard of evidence that a court has.

[corktownyuppie]

The fact that Detroit was on the move while KK was in office and the fact that its alot worse since he's been gone.

Um, that might be true...but that's a pretty remedial way of analyzing the situation. Just because Detroit was on the move while KK was in office doesn't mean that KK caused Detroit to be on the move.

I mean, he admittedly was balancing budgets and paying bills by borrowing money. If you made me Mayor and gave me access to a $800MM line of credit, I could do a lot to make everyone happy, too.

I think that's my biggest aggravation with most Detroiters...and I'm saying this from the stance that I live there now and have lived there over 20 years. Too many people think that just because two things occur simultaneously that one must have caused the other.

90% of the people Ferguson hired were Detroiters. That's great for those people who got hired. It's good for those families. But was it good for the city? Not if he was inflating contracts and skyrocketing the cost of doing business by asking for bribes.

We can agree to disagree about Kwame. And I admit that I'm biased about Ferguson, though I also state that I'm not on that jury.

But what is frustrating to many, white, black, and otherwise, is this "culture of justification" where large groups of people are making excuses for criminal behavior. You think that's racial? Go talk to black people who live in Ann Arbor or Plymouth or Farmington or Warren. They think this militant element of willful blindness is ridiculous and the cause for the city's downfall.

Seriously, it's like Detroiters live in a xenophobic, closed-off, isolated area where they've never been exposed to any thinking other than their own.

[SWMAP]

Careful there. "Seriously, it's like Detroiters live in a cave where they've never been exposed to any thinking other than their own."

That's how the City Law Department head got in trouble - she said that 36th district court was a ghetto; because she is an educated woman she was using the term as a synonym for an isolated group, She lost her job, of course, for the same reason that the guy who used the word niggardly [[means cheap) was thought by some to be using the n-word. Can't be too well-read around here. Also, can't use terms like live in a cave - that is racial.