Are suburbanites aware of how unattractive living in Metro-Detroit is to outsiders?

[Richard]

As another poster pointed out, this isn't about downing somebody because they like their suburban lifestyle. It's pointing out that there is no choice of environments in metro Detroit. What is our choice here? Suburban vs. exurban? What our region says is, essentially, if you want an urban option, we are not for you...

As it stands in the here and now I would agree with you but name one other urban opportunity that has what Detroit has to offer ,which is the ability to take part in making the city a more desirable place in the future,or the ability to partake in that ,also from learning from you guys ,if one is looking for a ready made city then Detroit is not the place for everybody ,I guess it is a case of if the glass is half full or half empty and home is where your heart is.

[BrushStart]

As another poster pointed out, this isn't about downing somebody because they like their suburban lifestyle. It's pointing out that there is no choice of environments in metro Detroit. What is our choice here? Suburban vs. exurban? What our region says is, essentially, if you want an urban option, we are not for you...

Last Friday I interviewed a young sales exec who grew up in suburban Detroit but moved to Chicago after college. He has a decent job there, but is considering moving back to the Detroit-area after we offered him a better paid position. His biggest hang up [[you guessed it) is: "Where would I live?" This guy has now experienced the wonders of a vibrant city with transit, which he rides everyday to work in the Loop. Between the endless streets lined with restaurants and bars filled with energetic young people, he may refuse Metro Detroit despite better pay, better benefits, better opportunity for advancement, and better working conditions. This may sound a bit misogynistic, but he confided in me [[being a man of similar age and status) that he can't get over how few young-professional women there are in the area. Chicago is literally teeming with ambitious 20 to 30-year-old females with careers. Sorely, Detroit is lacking both young men and women of this variety. We have plenty of old folks and some remaining families, and Detroit proper now has a visible number of "hipsters" and the like, but this is a huge setback for us. The reason, I would suggest, is the lack of diverse businesses and a vibrant urban core, which attracts both businesses and young people. How can we turn things around when we cannot get young, aspiring people to move here?

[Detroitnerd]

Last Friday I interviewed a young sales exec who grew up in suburban Detroit but moved to Chicago after college. He has a decent job there, but is considering moving back to the Detroit-area after we offered him a better paid position. His biggest hang up [[you guessed it) is: "Where would I live?" This guy has now experienced the wonders of a vibrant city with transit, which he rides everyday to work in the Loop. Between the endless streets lined with restaurants and bars filled with energetic young people, he may refuse Metro Detroit despite better pay, better benefits, better opportunity for advancement, and better working conditions. This may sound a bit misogynistic, but he confided in me [[being a man of similar age and status) that he can't get over how few young-professional women there are in the area. Chicago is literally teeming with ambitious 20 to 30-year-old females with careers. Sorely, Detroit is lacking both young men and women of this variety. We have plenty of old folks and some remaining families, and Detroit proper now has a visible number of "hipsters" and the like, but this is a huge setback for us. The reason, I would suggest, is the lack of diverse businesses and a vibrant urban core, which attracts both businesses and young people. How can we turn things around when we cannot get young, aspiring people to move here?

A big yup to that. I mean, I grew up in the suburbs and have lived in the suburbs, but once I got a taste of New York, my preference sure changed. And the sooner we as a region acknowledge that by helping create attractive urban environments [[providing actual rail transit would help) the sooner we can attract the investment that creates environments young people increasingly want a choice of.

No need to worry about sounding misogynistic. I think both sexes of young people want a wide choice of potential dates or mates, and Detroit isn't flush with options for that age group. "Detroit Needs Women"? I'd probably watch that movie ...

[ghettopalmetto]

Complacency is not an option.

Boosting Jobs with the Right Kind of Housing and Transportation Efforts

Christopher B. Leinberger

"The CEO of one of the nation’s largest homebuilders called me recently saying his drivable suburban business model was broken, it no longer works, but he does not understand how to develop the far more complex alternative."

"...without building the 'second half of the transportation system,' redeveloping our cities and transforming our suburbs with mixed-use, walkable development, we will be condemned to years of stagnation. The market wants it; it is more energy efficient, physically healthy, and it will provide over the next generation the same economic turbo-charge the building of the drivable suburbs provided over the past half century."

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/20...einberger.aspx

[ghettopalmetto]

More from Leinberger:

The Death of the Fringe Suburb

Christopher B. Leinberger,
The New York Times

NOVEMBER 25, 2011

Many boomers are now empty nesters and approaching retirement. Generally this means that they will downsize their housing in the near future. Boomers want to live in a walkable urban downtown, a suburban town center or a small town, according to a recent survey by the National Association of Realtors.

The millennials are just now beginning to emerge from the nest — at least those who can afford to live on their own. This coming-of-age cohort also favors urban downtowns and suburban town centers — for lifestyle reasons and the convenience of not having to own cars.

Over all, only 12 percent of future homebuyers want the drivable suburban-fringe houses that are in such oversupply, according to the Realtors survey. This lack of demand all but guarantees continued price declines. Boomers selling their fringe housing will only add to the glut. Nothing the federal government can do will reverse this.

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/20...einberger.aspx

[SteveJ]

Last Friday I interviewed a young sales exec who grew up in suburban Detroit but moved to Chicago after college. He has a decent job there, but is considering moving back to the Detroit-area after we offered him a better paid position. His biggest hang up [[you guessed it) is: "Where would I live?" This guy has now experienced the wonders of a vibrant city with transit, which he rides everyday to work in the Loop. Between the endless streets lined with restaurants and bars filled with energetic young people, he may refuse Metro Detroit despite better pay, better benefits, better opportunity for advancement, and better working conditions. This may sound a bit misogynistic, but he confided in me [[being a man of similar age and status) that he can't get over how few young-professional women there are in the area. Chicago is literally teeming with ambitious 20 to 30-year-old females with careers. Sorely, Detroit is lacking both young men and women of this variety. We have plenty of old folks and some remaining families, and Detroit proper now has a visible number of "hipsters" and the like, but this is a huge setback for us. The reason, I would suggest, is the lack of diverse businesses and a vibrant urban core, which attracts both businesses and young people. How can we turn things around when we cannot get young, aspiring people to move here?

Translation. You interviewed a telemarketer who is disappointed we don't have a ton of bars downtown so he can get drunk and take the bus back to his 600 sq ft apartment with some random whore. All my engineer friends stayed in Michigan. They all have jobs. They all have their own cars and live in the suburbs and don't care about living in Chicago. I have friends that have degrees that live in the country because they like it. Stop trying to act like everyone wants to live in a big city and Metro Detroit is some sort of shithole. We have the 9th most millionaires in the country.

What Detroit is sorely lacking is self control, condoms, and families that have 2 parents. We aren't going to solve our problems by bringing in a fucking choo choo train filled with horny telemarketers that just got their first job and are able to buy Miller Lite.

[Novine]

"Stop trying to act like everyone wants to live in a big city and Metro Detroit is some sort of shithole. We have the 9th most millionaires in the country."

SteveJ, I'll give you credit for endless optimism. But when a metro area has almost no population growth since the 1970s and lost hundreds of thousands of residents in the last census while other Metro areas grew, you've got a real problem.

[ghettopalmetto]

Stop trying to act like everyone wants to live in a big city and Metro Detroit is some sort of shithole. We have the 9th most millionaires in the country.

No, not everyone wants to live in a big city. But some do. And when you have a metropolis of 4-1/2 million people, it's hard to sell it as a small town.

Let's say Joe Graduate gets his degree and can move anywhere he wants. Should he choose a place that will help him grow socially and professionally, and offers the quality of life he wants? Or should he choose Detroit, where he can rationalize that SteveJ's friends also live the "Leave it to Beaver" lifestyle, and that Detroit has the 9th most millionaires in the nation?

Here's a hint: Joe Graduate is early in his career, most likely saddled with student loan debt, and looking to build social and professional networks among his peers. He's not going to sit alone in front of the television in some subdivision in Sterling Heights.

[Richard]

HE can get drunk but SHE is a whore ? Not very nice,but both posts have valid points.

If I was in my 30 s and single a female counter part would be a valid concern and there have been countless studies on that.

but I would also agree that there is a big push towards 20 & 30 something's over the older generation but to me the ones that are pushing the most have the most to gain and they are not 20 something .

[ghettopalmetto]

From CEOs for Cities:

Young, College-Educated Population Booming in Urban Centers

April 1, 2011

In 2000,young adults with a' four-year degree were about 61% more likely to live in close-in urban neighborhoods than their counterparts with less education. Now, these well-educated young adults are about 94% more likely to live in these close-in urban neighborhoods.

http://www.ceosforcities.org/pagefil...e_04-01-11.pdf

Unfortunately, in those 11 years, Detroit spent millions of dollars intently demolishing those exact same types of neighborhoods.

[gnome]

From CEOs for Cities:

Young, College-Educated Population Booming in Urban Centers

April 1, 2011



http://www.ceosforcities.org/pagefil...e_04-01-11.pdf

Unfortunately, in those 11 years, Detroit spent millions of dollars intently demolishing those exact same types of neighborhoods.

Did you read this thing before posting? Because here is a quote you might find interesting:

“Even Cleveland and Detroit, which foryears have watched their populations dwindle, are seeing increases in the number of well-.‐educated young adults in their close-.‐in neighborhoods.”

Also, the article concentrated their focus on the three miles from the city center. If our center is Campus Martius I'm trying to remember a destroyed neighborhood inside a 3 mile arc of CM within the last 10 years. Help me out here, because nothing comes to mind except maybe Brewster-Douglas but that's been a lot longer than 10 yrs and was never really a lure for the college-educated.

I understand Detroit has wasted a ton of dough on stupid things, but I'm drawing a blank on the millions you suggest was spent within the 3 mile arc.

[Gistok]

Translation. You interviewed a telemarketer who is disappointed we don't have a ton of bars downtown so he can get drunk and take the bus back to his 600 sq ft apartment with some random whore. All my engineer friends stayed in Michigan. They all have jobs. They all have their own cars and live in the suburbs and don't care about living in Chicago. I have friends that have degrees that live in the country because they like it. Stop trying to act like everyone wants to live in a big city and Metro Detroit is some sort of shithole. We have the 9th most millionaires in the country.

What Detroit is sorely lacking is self control, condoms, and families that have 2 parents. We aren't going to solve our problems by bringing in a fucking choo choo train filled with horny telemarketers that just got their first job and are able to buy Miller Lite.

Thanks for the good post Steve... I enjoyed that. And I've taken subways, buses and trains in more places than I can count... but I wouldn't want to take it every day... and bars and restaurants may be nice on the weekend... but who wants to go to one every day?

[Red Devil]

Last Friday I interviewed a young sales exec who grew up in suburban Detroit but moved to Chicago after college. He has a decent job there, but is considering moving back to the Detroit-area after we offered him a better paid position. His biggest hang up [[you guessed it) is: "Where would I live?" This guy has now experienced the wonders of a vibrant city with transit, which he rides everyday to work in the Loop. Between the endless streets lined with restaurants and bars filled with energetic young people, he may refuse Metro Detroit despite better pay, better benefits, better opportunity for advancement, and better working conditions. This may sound a bit misogynistic, but he confided in me [[being a man of similar age and status) that he can't get over how few young-professional women there are in the area. Chicago is literally teeming with ambitious 20 to 30-year-old females with careers. Sorely, Detroit is lacking both young men and women of this variety. We have plenty of old folks and some remaining families, and Detroit proper now has a visible number of "hipsters" and the like, but this is a huge setback for us. The reason, I would suggest, is the lack of diverse businesses and a vibrant urban core, which attracts both businesses and young people. How can we turn things around when we cannot get young, aspiring people to move here?

Bro, there are plennnnty of hot, ambitious young careerwomen in metro Detroit. You just gotta know where to look [[hint: it rhymes with "match"). They don't hang out downtown that much, as they are more into the A2/Plymouth/Bham/RO. I haven't even been back here a year and I've gone out with three MDs. And I live in Livonia lol

[Hermod]

From CEOs for Cities:

Young, College-Educated Population Booming in Urban Centers

April 1, 2011



http://www.ceosforcities.org/pagefil...e_04-01-11.pdf

Unfortunately, in those 11 years, Detroit spent millions of dollars intently demolishing those exact same types of neighborhoods.

Umm, because the denizens of those neighborhoods were not the type that your "young, college-educated" wants to be around? If the YCE wanted to pay the rent, the houses in those neighborhoods would have been fixed up by their landlords and never torn down.

I don't see anyone here rushing to buy or build investment property for the masses of YCE their trendy apartments and lofts will attract. Money talks and bullshit walks. DY is just a bunch of folks playing SimCity.

[noise]

Thanks for the good post Steve... I enjoyed that. And I've taken subways, buses and trains in more places than I can count... but I wouldn't want to take it every day... and bars and restaurants may be nice on the weekend... but who wants to go to one every day?

Is it really a good post? Is there any question that many young professionals and upwardly mobile citizens have left and are continuing to leave Detroit?

[Bham1982]

Is it really a good post? Is there any question that many young professionals and upwardly mobile citizens have left and are continuing to leave Detroit?

No one is arguing that Detroit hasn't lost many young professionals.

The dispute is over the why. Did they leave because there aren't enough bars filled with sorostitutes, or because the auto industry imploded?

I think the latter is much more relevant.

And, not surprisingly, the population loss has nearly ended, and unemployment has plummeted, just as the auto industry started to recover. It has nothing to do with light rail or attracting frat boys.

[ghettopalmetto]

Umm, because the denizens of those neighborhoods were not the type that your "young, college-educated" wants to be around? If the YCE wanted to pay the rent, the houses in those neighborhoods would have been fixed up by their landlords and never torn down.

I don't see anyone here rushing to buy or build investment property for the masses of YCE their trendy apartments and lofts will attract. Money talks and bullshit walks. DY is just a bunch of folks playing SimCity.

You're spot-on. You assume, however, that the magical free-market acts perfectly and instantaneously. As in the quote from Leinberger above, even large, professional homebuilders have no idea how to respond to the current market. How can you expect Sam Landlord, who has been living under the veil in Detroit his entire life, and only plays real estate professional in his spare time, to accurately respond to the same market conditions?

With that said, the areas that DO offer the type of housing choices sought by the current market--Midtown and to a lesser extent, Downtown, are seeing a bit of resurgence. That's not an accident.

On the other hand, as Jane Jacobs thoroughly explained over 50 years ago, you can't rely on new construction to save the day, because it will simply be unaffordable to most. Hence, the need for old building stock. Contrary to what some might believe, Detroit has spent millions demolishing such buildings that could have had residential uses, such as the Madison-Lenox, Hudsons, and Lafayette, off the top of my head.

[noise]

No one is arguing that Detroit hasn't lost many young professionals.

The dispute is over the why. Did they leave because there aren't enough bars filled with sorostitutes, or because the auto industry imploded?

I think the latter is much more relevant.

And, not surprisingly, the population loss has nearly ended, and unemployment has plummeted, just as the auto industry started to recover. It has nothing to do with light rail or attracting frat boys.

Perhaps you need to read the original post again, where the major point was "where would I live?"

Detroit has less to offer this crowd. There's no reason to pretend this is untrue.

[Bham1982]

Detroit has less to offer this crowd. There's no reason to pretend this is untrue.

You're right that Detroit has less to offer to urbanites. Really no place in the U.S. outside of NYC has a world-class urban core.

But that doesn't guide the locational decisions of most people. Most folks want a job. The presence of artisanal mayonaise boutiques isn't critical to their relocation decisions.

[noise]

You're right that Detroit has less to offer to urbanites. Really no place in the U.S. outside of NYC has a world-class urban core.

But that doesn't guide the locational decisions of most people. Most folks want a job. The presence of artisanal mayonaise boutiques isn't critical to their relocation decisions.

Even Milwaukee has a better urban core than Detroit. I wouldn't be so quick to ignore Detroit's problems by comparing it to NYC.

I think you may be out of touch with young professionals and their interests. I may only have numbers and real life examples, but I'm comfortable with that.

[Bham1982]

Even Milwaukee has a better urban core than Detroit. I wouldn't be so quick to ignore Detroit's problems by comparing it to NYC.

I think you're right that Metro Detroit loses out on some younger, educated folks because of the lack of urban amenities, and that it's an issue worth considering.

But I disagree that it's the primary issue affecting locational decisonmaking. The fastest growing American metros over the last few decades generally have horrible urban amenities.

Even now, in a post-exurban era, the fastest growing metros tend to be weak urbanistically. The exceptions are maybe NYC [[which is NYC and always an outlier), DC [[thanks to govt. and contractors) and SF [[thanks to tech).

But other economically strong places like Dallas, Houston, Raleigh-Durham, etc. have crap urban centers.

[gameguy56]

But other economically strong places like Dallas, Houston, Raleigh-Durham, etc. have crap urban centers.

Houston actually has done a lot of work to improve its urban core in recent years. Midtown and Montrose Houston have seen blistering rent increases and builders have been going on a tear renovating highrises and building urban lofts and townhomes. They have a new light rail system and have plans to expand it throughout the metro area.

I don't know as much about Dallas but I think the same is true there. They have a light rail system as well and I think their downtown is just as active as Houston's.

Go look at these cities that have all exploded in population in recent years. Even though many of them don't have a large old urban core, they're trying to build one or working with the old housing stock they already have. They're building light rail systems and investing in public transit. Not Detroit though, oh no we can't have those things.

We're not talking about everyone living in 150sq foot hovel studios surrounded by crime and garbage, but just having the option to walk to places and feel like part of a functioning urban community isn't that much to ask, I don't think.

The rest of America is moving on to a new reality, where some people want to live in a City, with or without metro Detroit.

[Bham1982]

Houston actually has done a lot of work to improve its urban core in recent years. Midtown and Montrose Houston have seen blistering rent increases and builders have been going on a tear renovating highrises and building urban lofts and townhomes.

Yes, you're right, but Houston [[and Dallas) remain less dense and less urban than even Detroit. No one could make a straight-faced argument that Houston and Dallas are growing because of their urban amenities.

My larger point is that relative levels of urbanity appear to be weakly correlated with relative economic health.

[Wheels]

I think all of you urban planners need to get out of Detroit and go somewhere your density and street walls are a reality. Detroit need someone with vision to work with what we have and start reworking the hundreds of building that are near collapse all over the city now! Detroit need to be rebuilt from the bottom up not from the top down. We don't need any new construction until we fix what we have. Quit trying to make it something it is not. Sell the concept of rebuilding and new growth will follow. Quit complaining about all the parking lots and fill them up with cars. Make the perceived pitfalls and make them the new selling points. Why can't a new concept different from any other city be the wave of the future. Quit winning and fix what we have first the rest will fall where it may.

[ghettopalmetto]

My larger point is that relative levels of urbanity appear to be weakly correlated with relative economic health.

I didn't pick where I wanted to live based on economic health of the region. I picked where I wanted to live based on whether or not I could walk down the street to get a cup of coffee, find quality independent restaurants, arts and cultural locales in close proximity, and have access to outdoor recreation. I based my decision on whether or not I could enjoy my life for the other 128 hours of the week, not Regional GDP Growth or other statistic.

But that's just me.