Are suburbanites aware of how unattractive living in Metro-Detroit is to outsiders?

[gnome]

Does anyone think it telling that the Southeastern High School mascot is called a Jungaleer? Do you know why? Because it was built out in the fricken country in 1915, it was sooo far out in the then Jungle that they called themselves Jungaleers.

You folks are laughable for even considering Detroit anything other than a confederation of suburban tract neighborhoods. You find the exact homes and neighborhoods on both sides of Mack after Alter. On both sides of 8 mile in Warren, all the same in Redford, Southfield, et al; however, GP is denser and more stabile as is any suburb you'd care to mention save RO TWP.

As soon as Hazen Pingree had Grand Blvd circle the city, the urge to move out and out forever changed Detroit from urban to suburban.

You can count on one hand the Detroit neighborhoods that could have been called "urban" back in the day: the southern sliver of Palmer Park, the riverside side of Jefferson across from Indian Village, maybe Park Ave and Cass two lifetimes ago, the slums of Hastings street and maybe West Grand near Grand River.

Now, today, the densest area in the City is Lafayette Park, which hold none of your precious markers for urbanness. No street-wall, no grid, no real retail, no mixed use.

Lafayette Park is dense, safe, steady and prosperous; but by your rigid definitions it is not urban because it is a pastural playground.

For Dan in Dc to suggest that the old retail tunnels out the artery spokes proves the claim that Detroit was once a great urban center, but at the same time he dismisses those same tunnels as they moved out, is just this side of pathological.

[iheartthed]

I just wanted to remind the forum that the real anomaly with Detroit is not its history as compared to its peers, but rather its approach in the past 20-30 years as compared to its peers.

Exactly!

Detroit has been one of the most densely populated major cities that have ever existed in America. Detroit is just about the exact same size in land area as Philadelphia and the two cities peaked at nearly the exact same population. Detroit knew how to do density once upon a time.

The difference between Detroit and the other peer cities has been how Detroit has handled itself in the postwar period. I get the sense that all of the major cities of the industrial era started down the same path or trying to retrofit their cities for the car [[instead of just letting the car adapt to the city). Then some cities realized how detrimental those policies were to the city and started walking back the mistakes. Then there are places like Detroit which just seemed to double down on those mistakes.

[gnome]

What do you think made Detroit one of the largest? huh? Your hated Automobile.

I'll tell you what, I'll trade you a bus-pass good for two years for the pink slip on whatever whooptie you drive.

You're rolling in the "When Detroit was Strong" butter, while not seeing that the strength came from Autos. The five-dollar a day thing, the 40 or so auto companies ... that is what made Detroit almost 2 million folk: your savior killed you.

[Gistok]

Our suburbs are no different from any other suburb in America. Except its nothing really to do except shop. What else is there to do? Well I guess you can go to dave & Busters, do some horseback riding and stuff like that. but our suburbs dont offer ANYTHING thats different from any other place. I go to Chicago on the weekends I want to hang out anyway. Its nothing to do in the burbs except shop. That doesnt make it world class in my book. Oh Yeah you can get a plant job. WOW

If you're idea of fun is "hanging out"... why do you waste 5 hours of driving to Chicago to that... you can hang out anywhere... [[without shopping). I like to go sailing in the summer months with some friends that's one of the nice things about the Nautical Mile in SCS. Or if you want to do some historic home visiting... you can go to Meadowbrooke, Gaukler Pointe, Fairlane, Cranbrook. Or take a scenic drive.... Lakeshore in the Grosse Pointes beats any drive in Detroit except perhaps Belle Isle. Or if you want to go to a cider mill in the fall... don't see too many of those close to any city.

If you go beyond the M-59 clusterfuck... you will find that there are things that you can do in the suburbs. You just have to take off your blinders... just like the people in the suburbs who say what would I want to do in Detroit... they too would have to take off their blinders.

It never amazes me at how many people on this forum are so pro or anti city or suburb. There's a balance to be had by enjoying both. If you think otherwise... you're just fooling yourself...

[Detroitnerd]

Does anyone think it telling that the Southeastern High School mascot is called a Jungaleer? Do you know why? Because it was built out in the fricken country in 1915, it was sooo far out in the then Jungle that they called themselves Jungaleers.

You folks are laughable for even considering Detroit anything other than a confederation of suburban tract neighborhoods. You find the exact homes and neighborhoods on both sides of Mack after Alter. On both sides of 8 mile in Warren, all the same in Redford, Southfield, et al; however, GP is denser and more stabile as is any suburb you'd care to mention save RO TWP.

As soon as Hazen Pingree had Grand Blvd circle the city, the urge to move out and out forever changed Detroit from urban to suburban.

You can count on one hand the Detroit neighborhoods that could have been called "urban" back in the day: the southern sliver of Palmer Park, the riverside side of Jefferson across from Indian Village, maybe Park Ave and Cass two lifetimes ago, the slums of Hastings street and maybe West Grand near Grand River.

Now, today, the densest area in the City is Lafayette Park, which hold none of your precious markers for urbanness. No street-wall, no grid, no real retail, no mixed use.

Lafayette Park is dense, safe, steady and prosperous; but by your rigid definitions it is not urban because it is a pastural playground.

For Dan in Dc to suggest that the old retail tunnels out the artery spokes proves the claim that Detroit was once a great urban center, but at the same time he dismisses those same tunnels as they moved out, is just this side of pathological.

Gnome, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Anecdotal information to support a thesis? Hazen Pingree did not build Grand Boulevard. Construction began in 1884. Lafayette Park has historically been the LEAST dense neighborhood. Furthermore, you are cherry-picking neighborhoods from TODAY, well outside the boulevard to make your case against HISTORICAL DATA. Do us a favor: If you're going to argue, do a little more than get inaccurate information from Wikipedia ...

[gnome]

If you want to see a photo of Hazen building Grand Blvd:

http://www.finaldestination.herobo.c...vard_[[Detroit)

Of course if you're talking about talking about building it, or maybe even plating where it might go maybe we should talk about 696 being built in the early 1960's or 275 in the late 1950's.

Talking and doing are different things, but I wouldn't think you can tell the difference.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I find this thread absurd. Why would anyone care about what other people think of their city/region/metro area? Yes, Detroit [[including Metro Detroit) and Michigan have had our fair share of bad press. But where you live is no better or worse because of what someone else thinks it is. I don't like Indian food. If you do, my opinion should be entirely irrelevant to you.

As it is, I think metro Detroit is a great place to live, suburbs included. Having lived elsewhere, I did not move back to Detroit out of loyalty [[although I am loyal). This is where I want to live. Fits my life. Proud to be here. And, when I was preparing to leave NY to move, more than a few people were exited for me, a little jealous to still be stuck in the rat race.

[Detroitnerd]

I find this thread absurd. Why would anyone care about what other people think of their city/region/metro area? Yes, Detroit [[including Metro Detroit) and Michigan have had our fair share of bad press. But where you live is no better or worse because of what someone else thinks it is. I don't like Indian food. If you do, my opinion should be entirely irrelevant to you.

As it is, I think metro Detroit is a great place to live, suburbs included. Having lived elsewhere, I did not move back to Detroit out of loyalty [[although I am loyal). This is where I want to live. Fits my life. Proud to be here. And, when I was preparing to leave NY to move, more than a few people were exited for me, a little jealous to still be stuck in the rat race.

Oh, I'm all for sucking it up and not caring what other people think. It's just this little thing where when everybody thinks your regions sucks, people leave, companies won't locate there, and the place becomes poorer and poorer and less populated.

[ghettopalmetto]

If you're idea of fun is "hanging out"... why do you waste 5 hours of driving to Chicago to that... you can hang out anywhere... [[without shopping). I like to go sailing in the summer months with some friends that's one of the nice things about the Nautical Mile in SCS. Or if you want to do some historic home visiting... you can go to Meadowbrooke, Gaukler Pointe, Fairlane, Cranbrook. Or take a scenic drive.... Lakeshore in the Grosse Pointes beats any drive in Detroit except perhaps Belle Isle. Or if you want to go to a cider mill in the fall... don't see too many of those close to any city.

If you go beyond the M-59 clusterfuck... you will find that there are things that you can do in the suburbs. You just have to take off your blinders... just like the people in the suburbs who say what would I want to do in Detroit... they too would have to take off their blinders.

It never amazes me at how many people on this forum are so pro or anti city or suburb. There's a balance to be had by enjoying both. If you think otherwise... you're just fooling yourself...

What if you just want to saunter down the street, grab a cup of coffee, check out an art gallery, and have lunch on the sidewalk?

The point is, Detroit doesn't have both. It has suburbs in spades. A lot of money and effort have been spent, however, in a concerted effort to hollow out most semblances of urbanity under the false pretense that everyone wants the suburban lifestyle.

If you want a more urban lifestyle, Detroit doesn't want you. That's the message being broadcast loud and clear to companies and young college graduates.

[gnome]

Pal, I eviscerated you before and someone had to remove it otherwise your fweelings would be hurt. If you want to argue how many angels can dance on a pin, have at it, but you've already lost the larger argument that Detroit has been moving out and out for over 100 years.

Go live in a real city some time. Spend some time in Paris or Berlin. Get a flat in London and when you've learned something come back and tell us all how Morningside is so different from Grosse Pointe.

Berry ain't that different than Quarton Park in Birmingham, just a Indian Village is not that much different than The Farms. Brightmore looks like Inkster and Detroit looks like its suburbs because the people who built the suburbs came from Detroit.

Don't you get it? Old Philly, Boston or Manhatten look like places in England or Holland because the people who built them came from there.

What do you think? a huge new brain was implanted into the skulls of every planner and official in Livonia, Redford, Ferndale, Royal Oak or Trenton? Do you think every builder sat down and experienced some collective epiphany that they would construct a brand new city structure?

They built what they knew and what they knew were suburban tract neighborhoods just like Detroit had. They didn't invent them. They built what they knew and what they knew was Detroit's tract homes.

Almost every single home around here features a front side and back yard. The garage may be off an alley but usually it isn't. Except for a few areas where there are multistory apartments, the pattern is the same.

That pattern is not held in Rome, Paris, Tokyo, London, Mumbai or Rio. The US holds precious it's suburban splendor as a long hangover from our agricultural past. All those places with the front, side and back yards are essentially farm houses. Most of those folks who poured forth from the south to answer the call of 5 dollars a day were farmers; just as were the Poles and Hungarians and Germans before them. Farmers built farm houses and that is what we have today.

It might not be 40 acres and a mule, but it sure is a 40 ft lot and a Toro.

We are not urban, never have been, we are farmers; we live in farm houses and no amount of wishing or didactic claims otherwise changes the reality that the suburban tracts of out-county are reflections of where they came from.

[SteveJ]

Oh, I'm all for sucking it up and not caring what other people think. It's just this little thing where when everybody thinks your regions sucks, people leave, companies won't locate there, and the place becomes poorer and poorer and less populated.

If you're an engineer, Michigan is the place to be. If you're a Barista, then I feel sorry for you.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Oh, I'm all for sucking it up and not caring what other people think. It's just this little thing where when everybody thinks your regions sucks, people leave, companies won't locate there, and the place becomes poorer and poorer and less populated.

Our economic woes [[poorer and poorer*) are self-inflicted, and self-fixable. Do you think companies don't come here because of percieved standard of living? Note: jobs flourish in just about every state with low taxes and regulation. If Detroit abolished the city income tax without compensating tax hikes elsewhere, and made it easy to open a business [[in terms of regulations and permitting), you would be amazed at the difference it would make. Companies don't open here- and some leave- because it's less expensive, faster, and easier to open in North Carolina, Tennessee, New Mexico, Utah... This is to stay nothing of our indigenous small businesses that are rendered stillborn or kept down by oppressive regulations and high property and business taxes. Say what you want about Detroit or Michigan: we don't exactly make it easy for entrepreneurs.

*Poorer and poorer is relative of course. Most people at the poverty level would have lived like kings as compared to someone a hundred years ago, or in the Depression. When I lived in NYC, I walked past public housing projects to get to work. There were DirectTV dishes ALL OVER those towers, and air conditioners in every other room. The kids that lived there never seemed to lack for bikes or rollerblades. Theirs is a fairly comfortable poverty. The *real* problem with poverty today is that it's not so bad to make you try like hell to get out of it. Truly humane anti-poverty efforts would provide subsistence food, shelter, and an education.

I know that will make me supremely unpopular here; doesn't mean that it isn't true. Hate me if you like, I won't hate you.

[Detroitnerd]

Our economic woes [[poorer and poorer*) are self-inflicted, and self-fixable. Do you think companies don't come here because of percieved standard of living? Note: jobs flourish in just about every state with low taxes and regulation.

These talking points about taxes and regulation having an inverse relationship with investment are near and dear to many "fiscal conservatives" -- but they're really not borne out by the statistics. If that were true, industries would be flocking to places like Mississippi and Alabama, not New York and California, for instance. And without getting into Richard Florida, who I think of as a well-intentioned guy with dubious statistical abilities, corporations are attracted to human capital, and today's human capital is intelligent workers, and, frankly, intelligent workers are attracted to places that invest in the kind of infrastructure that creates a vibrant, dense environment. You can't do that without taxes and regulations, I'm afraid.

I know that will make me supremely unpopular here; doesn't mean that it isn't true. Hate me if you like, I won't hate you.

No, don't hate you. You sound like a lot of people who are trying to judge the importance of social programs, infrastructure and what it's like to be poor from a particular vantage point. As somebody who has been poor, and who has lived in places that DO tax and spend on infrastructure [[New York) and don't tax and spend on infrastructure [[Detroit), I may know a little more and have a more informed take on it. All I'd do is urge you to challenge what you think you know. Keep an open mind and look at the statistics and facts. From time to time, even as I get older, I have to change my mind about some dearly held beliefs just because the facts don't support them. And I'm better off for that.

[Hermod]

The pastoral tendency in America goes back to the 1800s and Emerson and Thoreau and on back to Jefferson. Our forefathers believed that putting capital cities in major centers of commerce would derange government in favor of business, so they put state capitol buildings in cowtowns [[Lansing) where they look out of place and robbing big cities of monumental architecture. Would they had realized that business would hold just as much sway over states' policies, while small-town prejudices and antipathies against cities would hold sway.

I think that security had a lot to do with it. In the east, capitols were moved from vulnerable coastal cities during and after the revolution.
Massachusetts: Boston to Springfield
New York: NYC to Albany
Pennsylvania: Philly to Harrisburg
Virginia: Williamsburg to Richmond
South Carolina: Charleston to Columbia
Georgia: Savannah to Milledgeville

The relatively recent British conquest of Detroit in 1812 might have had something to do with locating the capitol in Lansing.

[ghettopalmetto]

Pal, I eviscerated you before and someone had to remove it otherwise your fweelings would be hurt. If you want to argue how many angels can dance on a pin, have at it, but you've already lost the larger argument that Detroit has been moving out and out for over 100 years.

Go live in a real city some time. Spend some time in Paris or Berlin. Get a flat in London and when you've learned something come back and tell us all how Morningside is so different from Grosse Pointe.

Berry ain't that different than Quarton Park in Birmingham, just a Indian Village is not that much different than The Farms. Brightmore looks like Inkster and Detroit looks like its suburbs because the people who built the suburbs came from Detroit.

Don't you get it? Old Philly, Boston or Manhatten look like places in England or Holland because the people who built them came from there.

What do you think? a huge new brain was implanted into the skulls of every planner and official in Livonia, Redford, Ferndale, Royal Oak or Trenton? Do you think every builder sat down and experienced some collective epiphany that they would construct a brand new city structure?

They built what they knew and what they knew were suburban tract neighborhoods just like Detroit had. They didn't invent them. They built what they knew and what they knew was Detroit's tract homes.

Almost every single home around here features a front side and back yard. The garage may be off an alley but usually it isn't. Except for a few areas where there are multistory apartments, the pattern is the same.

That pattern is not held in Rome, Paris, Tokyo, London, Mumbai or Rio. The US holds precious it's suburban splendor as a long hangover from our agricultural past. All those places with the front, side and back yards are essentially farm houses. Most of those folks who poured forth from the south to answer the call of 5 dollars a day were farmers; just as were the Poles and Hungarians and Germans before them. Farmers built farm houses and that is what we have today.

It might not be 40 acres and a mule, but it sure is a 40 ft lot and a Toro.

We are not urban, never have been, we are farmers; we live in farm houses and no amount of wishing or didactic claims otherwise changes the reality that the suburban tracts of out-county are reflections of where they came from.

So why does Detroit look like Dresden, ca. 1945? Is that because of the huge German population in Detroit?

You spend a lot of time discussing the basis of the original constructed form of Detroit, but refuse to acknowledge the wanton destruction Detroit has done to itself in the past 60 years.

Your argument is Orwellian in nature: "Detroit is not urban now, therefore has never been urban and never will be urban."

[Detroitnerd]

I think that security had a lot to do with it. In the east, capitols were moved from vulnerable coastal cities during and after the revolution.
Massachusetts: Boston to Springfield
New York: NYC to Albany
Pennsylvania: Philly to Harrisburg
Virginia: Williamsburg to Richmond
South Carolina: Charleston to Columbia
Georgia: Savannah to Milledgeville

The relatively recent British conquest of Detroit in 1812 might have had something to do with locating the capitol in Lansing.

Interesting theory, Hermod. I don't know if that was a factor. The only think we can clearly say is that Thomas Jefferson deplored the commercial natures of major cities upon government. It was he who sponsored the move of Virginia's capital to Richmond, and set the pattern for putting up a capital in a smaller town. Jefferson, even as he lived in major cities for years, continued to believe in the pernicious effects of cities and to deplore what he saw of their commercial character. For him, it was an ideological conviction, not something he acted out in his life, especially during his many years in Philadelphia, then among the nation's largest cities.

[Wheels]

One thing I can say after traveling for work for over 30 years is that telling people you are from "DETROIT" is like a box of chocolates!

You never know what kind of reaction you are going to get you just know you are going to get a reaction!

[GUSHI]

Companies don't locate here because were a union state.

Oh, I'm all for sucking it up and not caring what other people think. It's just this little thing where when everybody thinks your regions sucks, people leave, companies won't locate there, and the place becomes poorer and poorer and less populated.

[wvernon]

If you're an engineer, Michigan is the place to be. If you're a Barista, then I feel sorry for you.

Ha Yeah, you hipsters looking to for something to do kill me. Salaries for professionals in Metro Detroit are pretty much comparable to the most expensive cities in the country. I'll take my canal home I paid peanuts for with a boat and a couple jetski's on the seawall and you can have your $150 "Cats" theater tickets. And JFK Jr. probably never rode a snowmobile, which to me means he never really lived.

[ghettopalmetto]

Companies don't locate here because were a union state.

Right. And Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina are bastions of wealth.

[GUSHI]

Look were automotive factories are opening up in the south,why did vw move from auburn hills, how come Toyota doesn't have a plant. In here

Right. And Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina are bastions of wealth.

[ghettopalmetto]

Look were automotive factories are opening up in the south,why did vw move from auburn hills, how come Toyota doesn't have a plant. In here

That might have something to do with the bribes, er, "incentives" that they hand out left-and-right to corporate giants in the South, in exchange for bringing a few hundred barely-above-poverty-wage jobs to each state.

[Detroitnerd]

Companies don't locate here because were a union state.

That is another dearly held canard. Or apparently they don't have strong unions and open-shop laws in California and New York?

[Richard]

Its more like a combination of different things ,large tracts of land reasonable,lower tax rates,aggressive community leaders that actually welcome investment,community training facilities to prepare the workforce,even simple things like the weather that decreases output,yes also incentives and even a little non union workforce but contrary to some beliefs there are a lot of service trade related unions in the south.

I have a friend that works at a toque converter factory in Alabama and is paid a very excellent wage with as much overtime as he wishes and he raises his family quite comfortably, everything is relative.

But back to the OP no matter where you go suburbs are suburbs and urban is urban and it all boils down to personal preference and not downing somebody because of that preference.I have a house in the burbs next to Disney world everybody says wow it must be cool to live there,yea it was okay raiseing the kids but after that it sucked now I prefer urban and dense I guess we Americans are a strange breed Hugh.

[Detroitnerd]

But back to the OP no matter where you go suburbs are suburbs and urban is urban and it all boils down to personal preference and not downing somebody because of that preference.I have a house in the burbs next to Disney world everybody says wow it must be cool to live there,yea it was okay raiseing the kids but after that it sucked now I prefer urban and dense I guess we Americans are a strange breed Hugh.

As another poster pointed out, this isn't about downing somebody because they like their suburban lifestyle. It's pointing out that there is no choice of environments in metro Detroit. What is our choice here? Suburban vs. exurban? What our region says is, essentially, if you want an urban option, we are not for you...