Are suburbanites aware of how unattractive living in Metro-Detroit is to outsiders?

[Jason]

No, I don't think most suburbanites know how unattractive the suburbs are to outsiders.

They tend to think that the city is dragging down the region and that the suburbs are successful and attractive, when really the suburbs are generally just as unappealing.

[GUSHI]

Ya but at least the suburbs aren't full with burned downs homes,most are safe to walk, i don't feel the need to lock my car doors while driving in the burbs, in Detroit I do.

No, I don't think most suburbanites know how unattractive the suburbs are to outsiders.

They tend to think that the city is dragging down the region and that the suburbs are successful and attractive, when really the suburbs are generally just as unappealing.

[iheartthed]

NYC is dirty and over priced, my aunt live on 5th ave across from central park, it's definitely walkable, unlike most parts of Detroit, but they do have a lot of rats, litter, and you just feel dirty in the city,

Yet people still move there...

[Hermod]

Yet people still move there...

If the "big three" was to come roaring back with wages almost double the median national manufacturing wage, people would be clamoring to get to the Detroit area as well.

The suburbs of Washington DC are constantly expanding due to jobs being created there. I lived in suburban Virginia until i retired and really prefer the suburbs of Detroit, but the jobs were in suburban Virginia. At least around Detroit, the streets run in a straight grid and outside of the rush hours, the traffic isn't too bad.

[Bham1982]

NYC is dirty and over priced, my aunt live on 5th ave across from central park, it's definitely walkable, unlike most parts of Detroit, but they do have a lot of rats, litter, and you just feel dirty in the city,

Fifth Ave. across from Central Park is hardly dirty. Excepting quasi-dictatorships like Singapore. it's probably as clean as you'll see a very high density residential urban environment.

You're not the first person who's made this claim, though. Is it because you only visited many decades ago, in the "bad old days"? I have some issues with NYC, but "dirty" certainly wouldn't be one of them, especially compared to certain other U.S. and European cities.

[GUSHI]

I'm in NYC a few weeks each summer, and it is dirty,

Fifth Ave. across from Central Park is hardly dirty. Excepting quasi-dictatorships like Singapore. it's probably as clean as you'll see a very high density residential urban environment.

You're not the first person who's made this claim, though. Is it because you only visited many decades ago, in the "bad old days"? I have some issues with NYC, but "dirty" certainly wouldn't be one of them, especially compared to certain other U.S. and European cities.

[GUSHI]

And most European cities are dirty too, Rome, Frankfurt, Paris,
European are generally just not clean people,

[GUSHI]

Yonkers and White plains are also dirty, upstate for the most part what I have seen is clean.

[GUSHI]

I would take a house in Old Detroit any day of the week, than a 500 or 600 square feet apartment in brooklyn, queens, Bronx any day of the week, now they do have some nice homes in the above listed, they are just to congested for my liking.

[maverick1]

Yet people still move there...

Right. Also New York today is not like the NY of the 70s and 80s. Nowadays you hear nothing about the bad days of New York. Cost of living isn't as big an issue as some people make it seem. That's not to say affordability doesn't play a role in a city being attractive. If you can achieve the culture/amenities/density/cost of living balance you're winning. I think Charlotte, Atlanta, and Houston have done this.

[Bham1982]

And most European cities are dirty too, Rome, Frankfurt, Paris,
European are generally just not clean people,

Then I guess that you and I have very different definitions of dirty.

I agree that Rome is somewhat dirty, but Paris is pretty clean, and Frankfurt is like antiseptic clean. German cities are very clean.

And, yeah, I think NYC isn't particularly dirty, especially given the huge pedestrian crowds.

[skyl4rk]

In comparison to the suburbs of Chicago, the suburbs of Detroit are far, far nicer, with more trees, lakes, hills and nicer houses.

The City of Detroit is a boom town that went bust. It is no wonder that there are problems. It is still pretty interesting in an adventure tourism way.

[maverick1]

Exactly. A largely empty downtown, surrounded by a poor, unsafe, and increasingly abandoned city, and surrounded again by seemingly endless generic American suburbia, is just not interesting or attractive. And the fact that our local idea of entertainment mostly consists of driving to the mall followed by watching the hockey game on TV doesn't help either.

It's really the whole Detroit area "experience" that doesn't appeal to outsiders, and particularly people from other parts of the developed world, as a way to live - not specifically the city or the suburbs. In fact, that very divide, and its centrality to living in our area and our politics, I've found is one of the things that's most unattractive about metro Detroit.

This is basically the impression I get from outsiders. They ask why downtown is a ghost town on a weekday afternoon and in the suburbs they feel they are just "there".

[nain rouge]

I started a thread years ago about the European fascination with Detroit proper. Can’t really say much about the Euro opinion of the SE Michigan suburbs, but I have taken “outsiders” into Detroit and they were absolutely blown away by the DIA and the Motown museum as well as the architecture.

I watched a series called "Reason Saves Cleveland, With Drew Carey", and there was one episode that really struck me. In it, they basically said that if people are excessively pointing at the museums and cultural institutions in a city, then you know the city probably sucks. Any city with a decent population will have museums and cultural institutions. Yeah, Cleveland and Detroit's might have a little more history than their counterparts in Phoenix, but do you think that's going to convince anyone Cleveland or Detroit are better? No. When you go to a place like NYC, they'll tell you that the museums and cultural institutes are nice, but there's much more going on besides that.

And old skyscrapers are cool, but how can I personally interact with them on a daily or even weekly basis? They're forbidding monoliths that are only useful to the average person as a thing to be admired from afar on occasion.

It's people and jobs and the life that pours out from that which makes a city. The rest is overly glorified.

[hortonz]

Detroit is no different from any other one-industry city in North America or Europe that existed solely to serve the needs of manufacturers. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Hamiliton and Windsor Ontario are all examples of cities that are facing or have faced the exact same set of problems that Detroit has. For every London or Paris there are a million dying industrial centres in Europe that don't look much different than Detroit.

[GUSHI]

In my opinion Toronto is a clean city, Boston hit or miss, Philly isn't clean, atlantic city is clean,

I have been to europe many times, we have a house in Europe land in two different European countries, in general what I have seen its isn't clean,


I have seen more rats in my few visits A year in NYC, than the 16 years that I lived in the D.and I grew up on the eastside of Detroit, w vacant home galore.

[Barbara_10]

Yet people still move there...

I visited NYC, the only time ever in 2010, and loved every minute of it.

[GUSHI]

Metro is 10 times cleaner than the airport in Paris, the thought of the smell of the airport in Paris makes my stomach weezy, I had a 7 or 8 hour layover there my last time I went to montenegro.

[GUSHI]

And the Fu Ken people are very Fu Ken rude.

[Jason]

I don't think this is an issue of city vs. suburb, I think it's an issue of city vs. city and suburb vs. suburb. Metro Detroit's urban areas are worse than other cities' urban areas, and Metro Detroit's suburbs are worse than other cities' suburbs.

The thing is most suburbanites here think that our urban areas compare poorly to other urban areas, but the think our suburban areas compare favorably to other suburban areas. But in an apples to apples comparison, metro Detroit is not attractive compared to other cities.

[antongast]

I've never said anything close to this, but feel free to troll away...

BTW, I am European-born, and the anecdotal observations made on this thread are the exact opposite of my anecdotal observations.

The European expats I know and work with love living in the area, and many seek to stay, which surprises me. In short, the lifestyle available in the U.S. is unattainable in Europe. You can't have a full size car, a house with a yard, or leafy surroundings with squirrels/deer etc. in your backyard.

Basically people fetishise the other. That's why Americans go bonkers for Europe, and vice-versa. We go there and say "wow, the trains are so frequent, and the old towns so charming". They come here and say "wow, the homes are so big and everything is so spacious".

Sounds to me like there's some self-selection at work there. Europeans who pursue opportunities to live and work in the US probably disproportionately come from the segment of the European population that enjoys things like big cars and detached houses with yards the most, and Americans who pursue opportunities to visit Europe and then rave about the historic cities and quality transit to friends back home probably disproportionately come from the segment of the American population that values those things the most.

[Patrick]

If the "big three" was to come roaring back with wages almost double the median national manufacturing wage, people would be clamoring to get to the Detroit area as well.

The suburbs of Washington DC are constantly expanding due to jobs being created there. I lived in suburban Virginia until i retired and really prefer the suburbs of Detroit, but the jobs were in suburban Virginia. At least around Detroit, the streets run in a straight grid and outside of the rush hours, the traffic isn't too bad.

Tell me about it. The urban planning here in Northern Virginia sucks, despite having America's best economy and being flush with cash.

[hortonz]

Toronto is a clean city? Have you taken the time to explore the entire city and not just downtown? Many parts of Toronto look like Detroit and vice versa.

[GUSHI]

Being first generation born here, my parents came here w the thought of going back home, which only partly happen, they do return back home once every few years, most immigrants thought the same way, most stayed here, even though most I know have homes back home, that have been in the family for 100's of years, yet they chose to stay here and work and pay taxes, why is that? Because even though the USA Isn't the same old USA it was 20/30 years ago , America is still the best country in the world, And most live in the burbs, with well manicured lawns,

[GUSHI]

What I seen of Toronto was clean, and not just downtown, I stayed in the suburbs