MSU proposes urban agriculture project in Detroit

[nain rouge]

I understand your points, Corktownyuppie. There is certainly some merit in your argument. In the end, however, I still perceive urban farming as just another step in Detroit's decline into complete irrelevance [[because we know how much economic and political clout small farms have), which not so coincidentally is bad for the region as whole. I'm not going to celebrate it.

Tons of money was poured into Detroit in the '70s to stop the city from free falling, but did it work? The development of the Renaissance Center resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars of investment into Detroit, alone. What's $50 million in today's money going to fix? It's just another drop in the bucket of Metro Detroit's apathy.

If trends like urban farms and investments like MSU's continue, what will we be able to say in 20 years to outsiders? "Yeah, Detroit used to be bad. But we turned most of our big city into a farm. It's great now!" It will go down in history as a stunning example of the impermanence of human civilization.

And, in this scenario, what happens to the suburbs when the US auto industry reaches out its hands for another bailout in 10 or 20 years, and this time the federal government doesn't have the cash to spare? How soon before the suburbs bordering Detroit begin to look like the suburbs inside Detroit today? Will we turn those neighborhoods into farms, too?

Decentralization will kill this region, and farming is just another step in that process. Coleman Young once said in the '90s, "Detroit today is your city tomorrow." I'm finding it increasingly hard to argue with him as our region's entrenched attitudes slowly ruin everything. I'm just glad I'm still young enough to move out, away from the crazies that think an Olga's Kitchen and giant urban farm are the answers.

[GUSHI]

Detroit is huge, there is nothing wrong w urban farming, enough land will still remain, detroit is never gonna hit two million people again, may not even hit one million again,treat everything on the outside of the downtown area as a suburb, that the only way Detroit survives, Detroit is to big land for it's own good, people scattered, no government can provide it's citizens with service in the current state of Detroit, make the one or two hold outs move to a more populated area, or fend for themselves, like hermits/rural people do.

[nain rouge]

GUSHI: Indianapolis is over twice the size of Detroit and has only 800,000 people. Yes, Indianapolis is only so large because it annexed some of the surrounding suburbs. But still, the question I pose to you is: how does one governmental body manage to effectively govern Indianapolis's 372 square miles, but Detroit's 143 square miles are just too much?

[GUSHI]

Is Indy residents scattered like detroit, does Indy have a tax paying middle class, which most of Detroit lacks, is there slumlords who own 100's of empty structures in Indy that do not pay taxes like detroit,

[nain rouge]

Is Indy residents scattered like detroit, does Indy have a tax paying middle class, which most of Detroit lacks, is there slumlords who own 100's of empty structures in Indy that do not pay taxes like detroit,

No, because people in the Indianapolis metro area recognized that they had to make some sacrifices to keep their city from falling apart. I'm not blaming Detroit's government for all or even most of Detroit's current problems. It's a regional issue and we all shoulder some of the blame.

[Gistok]

No, because people in the Indianapolis metro area recognized that they had to make some sacrifices to keep their city from falling apart. I'm not blaming Detroit's government for all or even most of Detroit's current problems. It's a regional issue and we all shoulder some of the blame.[/COLOR]

You need to add into the equation that Indianapolis is a State Capital. So they have a certain government largesse that Detroit is lacking from our state government.

Can anyone name a state capital that is in the dumps?? I can't...

So the choice of Indianapolis is not an entirely fair comparison...

[downtownguy]

All in all, urban farming just sounds philosophically like an easy way out to me.

Bing's Detroit Works Project is the easy way out. I am much more impressed with MSU's plan. There is plenty of empty space in Detroit for more creative ideas like this. And while I also "wished" all the things you want the Metro region to realize about how a strong Detroit is good for all, it isn't happening, it hasn't happened and it likely won't happen for a long time. More creative ideas like this is what Detroit needs and to have a major university behind it makes me even more excited to see it happen.

[mwilbert]

Can anyone name a state capital that is in the dumps?? I can't...

I don't think you are trying hard.

Harrisburg is going bankrupt. Other than that, Trenton is the most obvious example of a capital in bad shape. Albany isn't doing too well either.

[mwilbert]

Bing's Detroit Works Project is the easy way out.

I could not disagree more. Detroit Works [[the long-term version) is both more ambitious and more difficult. I'm in favor of the MSU project [[from what I've heard) but the big advantage of that proposal is that it would be much easier, so more likely to actually happen.

[nain rouge]

Harrisburg is going bankrupt. Other than that, Trenton is the most obvious example of a capital in bad shape. Albany isn't doing too well either.

Also, Jacksonville has 885 square miles and a population of 800,000, and isn't a state capitol. Jacksonville basically swallowed up the county it was in the late '60s, when voters recognized the need for unity as being greater than the need for suburban fiefdoms.

[nain rouge]

Check out this list of US cities by land area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cities_by_area

Detroit is 64th. A fully populated Detroit is actually fairly dense by US standards.

[GUSHI]

Ya Detroit is 64th, but 5 of 6 are freaking Alaska and Montana, detroit is the 3rd largest population according to the list.

[nain rouge]

I had a feeling somebody would raise that point. Look at the list more closely: Jacksonville is 5th; Oklahoma City 8th; Houston 9th; Phoenix 10th; Nashville 11th; San Antonio 13th; Indianapolis 16th; Fort Worth 19th; Kansas City 23rd; and so on. The population size of those cities ranges from 600,000 to 2 million. How do they manage with all those square miles to govern?

[GUSHI]

They hve a middle class tax base?

[nain rouge]

I won't argue with that, Gushi. Just about everyone knows that Detroit's biggest problem is that the upper and middle classes have largely abandoned it. My point is that this idea that Detroit is this monstrously large albatross at about 140 square miles is preposterous. That's irrelevant. If anything, Jacksonville and its 700+ square miles should be attracting more urban farmers than Detroit.

[Hypestyles]

Maybe we're not all on the same page here. Are people imagining some kind of pre-civil war era plantation?

That's exactly what most people are seeing. Urban farming projects alone are no cure-all for what ails Detroit. But unfortunately, once the more cynical, jaded, and uneducated sorts in local leadership/activism get introduced to proposals like this, the tendency is to start accusations of suburban land-grab, or "They want to turn Detroit into a Plantation" which adds a totally unnecessary racialized spin to redevelopment efforts. Of course, if one is to look at this through the lens of African-American history, agrarian-based skill sets were common to Detroit's african-american forbearers, but were generationally lost as the industrialization boom manifested. A major university spearheading a project like this shouldn't be treated like some fly-by-night profiteer.. Too many people in power are balking simply because they don't "understand" it.. They carp about gentrification while tens of thousands of derelict, dangerous structures remain untouched..

[nain rouge]

But unfortunately, once the more cynical, jaded, and uneducated sorts in local leadership/activism get introduced to proposals like this, the tendency is to start accusations of suburban land-grab, or "They want to turn Detroit into a Plantation" which adds a totally unnecessary racialized spin to redevelopment efforts.

And I'm assuming you're very educated in the concept of urban farming, beyond an article or two?

[szla]

I view urban problems a little like heart disease. There is no one great event, project, program or whatever is going to cure the city but a bunch of small phenomena which if put together can make a difference. If one third of the city is vacant that that means there are over 30,000 acres vacant. This project is 100 acres .3 percent of the vacant land. As a previous poster put it, get out of the way and at least try this project and anything else that is at least reasonable.

[jolla]

If trends like urban farms and investments like MSU's continue, what will we be able to say in 20 years to outsiders? "Yeah, Detroit used to be bad. But we turned most of our big city into a farm. It's great now!" It will go down in history as a stunning example of the impermanence of human civilization.

Or they'll say: "Yeah, Detroit used to be bad. Like really bad. Like RoboCop bad. And now it's not."

[SWMAP]

And I'm assuming you're very educated in the concept of urban farming, beyond an article or two?

Why be condescending like this in an online discussion on a Board that you just joined? Hypestyles has a well-honed perspective on Detroit issues and makes excellent points. He has made, literally, one thousand times more substantive contributions here than you have. He is also a mature and tested person. You come off like a shallow kid here. Just saying.

[MSUguy]

Maybe we're not all on the same page here. This is a research project. It doesn't need to be profitable. It's probably not going to be profitable. That's why it's research. That means they're going to be an incubator of ideas, knowing that 99 out of a 100 will go nowhere but that the 1 could change the world.

Are people imagining some kind of pre-civil war era plantation?

No, the platation is bit of hyperbole that came for come some in the non profit gardening/farming community that farm like Hantz would be low wage jobs on for profit farm. This as a reseach project, of course, would not be be for profit. I found a blog post discussing some the criticisms of farm like Hantz, I can kind of see what they're saying, but at the same time the city does need business investment.

A bookstore owner and food activist from Detroit used the word “plantation” in the first sentence of his question once the discussion began in San Jose. Indeed, the proposal is for the creation of a “plantation” amidst several hundred thousand poor and challenged urban residents. The jobs created would be farm labor jobs — transforming Detroit’s neighborhoods into farm labor housing, IF Detroit residents actually got the work. So much for the Jeffersonian ideal of the agrarian freeholder as the basis of democracy.
The presenter talked in broad, moral terms about “creating” a legacy for Detroit. I asked him, “Wouldn’t your legacy be more positive if you helped create 2,000 ten acre farms with community ownership than a 20,000 acre plantation?” He was silent to this question.

http://markmaynard.com/2010/01/would...d-for-detroit/

[hamtown mike]

Why wait for an initiative? Grab a shovel and a rake and just do it!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hamto...07254785975360

[corktownyuppie]

And, in this scenario, what happens to the suburbs when the US auto industry reaches out its hands for another bailout in 10 or 20 years, and this time the federal government doesn't have the cash to spare? How soon before the suburbs bordering Detroit begin to look like the suburbs inside Detroit today? Will we turn those neighborhoods into farms, too?

Decentralization will kill this region, and farming is just another step in that process. Coleman Young once said in the '90s, "Detroit today is your city tomorrow." I'm finding it increasingly hard to argue with him as our region's entrenched attitudes slowly ruin everything. I'm just glad I'm still young enough to move out, away from the crazies that think an Olga's Kitchen and giant urban farm are the answers.

I can't say for sure, but perhaps this is why we aren't seeing eye to eye. Detroit will never be a giant urban farm. There's no way we will ever have 140 square miles of urban farmland. And that's not the purpose of this project.

The idea could make Detroit into a global model for growing food and energy crops in once unthinkable urban settings — inside desolate buildings, on contaminated soil and between concrete slabs of shopping center lots. The technology MSU researchers hope to cultivate by growing crops here with limited energy and water could be a model exported to dense cities across the world struggling with food production, according to the university.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz1sFZq0l00

What we're talking about here is not about pouring money into some development project in hopes that it will draw other developments, like the Ren Cen. Or to transform the long-term vision for land use in Detroit. This is not an "urban planning" concept being put to use in order to spur development.

This is a research project whose goal it is to develop new technologies. Technologies like the computer chip or the internet or biotechnology. Except in this case, it's agricultural research on how feasible it is to re-use contaminated soil to grow crops. Or to be able to reuse buildings for farming.

This isn't a Detroit solution...this is a global solution. Abandoned brownfields all over the world exist. And right now their value is zero. Or worse than zero...it those blighted buildings may be a burden to cities all over the world.

To be able to convert a liability to an asset using technology is where economic growth comes from. It's how silicon went from being worthless to priceless. Gasoline was once a waste by-product of the process used to manufacture kerosene. It's how oil companies learned to market and sell every single possible drop of substance from the refinery process. It's how saccharin went from being a byproduct of coal tar into a money-making artificial sweetener.

We'll agree to disagree about the best way to turn Detroit back into a world class metropolis. But as far as this is concerned, I think we should be viewing this as a research/technology/invention investment. Not a "turn Detroit into 100 miles of cornfields" land-grab. And every now and then, some of those research experiments turn into world-changing inventions that are the true source of wealth.

Just as Henry Ford brought mass production to the world...what if we found a way to take contaminated land that was left for dead and converted it into valuable soil and 21st century vertical farming?

Detroit might even re-invent the middle class.

[rbdetsport]

I am currently a student at MSU, but I don't feel that my opinion is biased, as I care more about the survival of Detroit more than any school I have attended [[includes UofM, MSU, and NYU [[this summer)).

This project would be a great thing for the city. I find it ridiculous that the city would not be chomping at the bit for a research project like this. The city should try to get as many research projects as possible, as that is how the city originally started its residential growth, with the assembly line "research project", right? We are at a point in the life of Detroit that we need to find a new way of doing business. Who knows, maybe that could be urban farming.

The whole idea of urban farming will be a good project in Detroit. Take the vacant land that is not going to be used for at least 20 years, and turn it in to an urban farm. This will in turn raise the demand for space in the sustainable areas as people want to move back to the city. It will also take away the focus of law enforcement on highly vacant areas and allow them to focus there resources on the areas where most of the population density lives. It seems so basic if it is put that way. We should test the waters in this industry. And I applaud my university for taking these steps towards making a large research investment in Detroit.

Oh, and to make sure that this isn't in fact a land grab, give MSU and Hantz Farms [[gosh, with all of the recent allegations I shouldn't put those two in the same sentence) a 20-30 year lease on the land. Make sure it says in the agreement that if a developer comes forward with a legit plan, then the land can be used for that.

[oladub]

I wonder if MSU plans to drill water wells or pay for fluoridated City water to irrigate its crops?

I'm guessing that a good sized city block would be about 15 acres. Would the sidewalks and streets be torn up in between blocks? That would be quite a cost.

Then there is the crime problem. How will crops and field workers be protected? This is a basic consideration to doing anything in Detroit.

I'm not saying this idea shouldn't be considered. It will at least keep the grass cut and be a novelty. Maybe some good will come out of it providing some practical alternatives for green spaces. However, large scale self sufficient gated communities of up to 50,000 residents with their own private police, educational services, stores, and businesses would probably make more sense.