Are there ANY examples of how State Takeovers actually "helped" anyone?

[skyl4rk]

Contracting out garbage collection seems to work better than having a city run garbage collection department.

[corktownyuppie]

Synagro anyone?

Synagro isn't so much an example of privatization gone wrong...it's more an example of what happens when the people running the city are operating in a manner that fall under the definitions of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act [[RICO).

[Detroitnerd]

Where is the difference? Where is your dividing line? Is contracting anything the city is now doing in house privatization?

Rather than engage in hair-splitting...

Private companies hate public competition. It lowers their profits when there is a public organization providing the same service they do. Wherever that line falls, you can be sure corporate managers are going to use public relations, media campaigns, bully pulpits and donations [[bribes) to ensure that the public options are few. So expect the line between "contracting" and "privatization" to be deliberately blurred.

As for private water companies fudging their figures, look no further than United Water, the company Flint contracted -- to save the city a whopping $2.8 million. How would you feel if your water utility was contracted out to a company facing 26 counts of felony violations of the Clean Water Act? But then those savings must come out of services. And city residents calling United Water expecting responses about rusty water and other problems simply didn't have calls returned. Now, who do you vote against to stop this mismanagement? You don't because you can't. At a certain point, privatization looks a lot less like deal-shopping and a whole lot more like top-down Soviet systems where you get what they want you to get, and if you don't like it, lump it, Tovarich.

Frankly, I think a lot of the enthusiasm for "privatization" comes from people who are outside its crosshairs. People of means who have efficient city services, are politically engaged and pay attention to their government [[something poor people don't do enough of because it's a struggle to keep breathing each morning), people who have quietly been grinding an ax against unions and think it will sock it to them, etc.

Reminds me of the emergency manager thing. For a while, people in Grosse Pointe were all for it. People in sleepy outstate communities were for it. But when they realized it may have some ramifications for them, some decided to turn against it. Somebody else's democracy, we think we can tinker with. But our democracy is sacrosanct. This is something we should very carefully consider going forward.

[Detroitnerd]

Contracting out garbage collection seems to work better than having a city run garbage collection department.

As a Detroit resident, I have been completely satisfied with my garbage collection. Never a problem.

[Funaho]

As a Detroit resident, I have been completely satisfied with my garbage collection. Never a problem.

Agreed. In fact garbage collection is pretty much the only City service i find reliable at the moment.

[Wesley Mouch]

Agreed. In fact garbage collection is pretty much the only City service i find reliable at the moment.

A little confused here... does the City of Detroit contract out garbage collection?

[313WX]

A little confused here... does the City of Detroit contract out garbage collection?

No, Detroit doesn't contract out garbage collection.

A lot of historic major cities don't.

[Detroitnerd]

A little confused here... does the City of Detroit contract out garbage collection?

No, it's a city service. And they come on time and pick up the trash every week no problem.

I was pleasantly surprised last year, when a tree fell in front of my house, blocking the drive and leaning on the front porch, thankfully no damage. City crew was working overtime to clean up the storm damage, but they came by and cleaned up the whole thing in a few hours withing two weeks.

Some city services are actually pretty responsive. And, no, these are not privatized.

[Wesley Mouch]

No, Detroit doesn't contract out garbage collection.
A lot of historic major cities don't.

Kudos to DPW.

[Gistok]

No, it's a city service. And they come on time and pick up the trash every week no problem.

I was pleasantly surprised last year, when a tree fell in front of my house, blocking the drive and leaning on the front porch, thankfully no damage. City crew was working overtime to clean up the storm damage, but they came by and cleaned up the whole thing in a few hours withing two weeks.

Some city services are actually pretty responsive. And, no, these are not privatized.

Wait... it took 2 weeks for them to come out there... but they did it within a few hours?? .... "responsive"?? Well I guess it does depend on how severe the storm was.... and how much they had to do around the city... but 2 weeks is still a long time...

[Hypestyles]

Regarding the recently accepted consent agreement, I want results. No more well-meaning but empty rhetoric from any of the principals involved: Mayor Bing, Governor Snyder, or the City Council. I want working streetlights, a regular police presence, responsive ambulances/EMS, reliable bus service, and a non-obstructive, functional city bureaucracy.
On a side note, I wonder how chaotic next year's local elections are going to be-- you have the open mayoral seat, plus the open city council seats by the new districts. We'll see..

[corktownyuppie]

Frankly, I think a lot of the enthusiasm for "privatization" comes from people who are outside its crosshairs. People of means who have efficient city services, are politically engaged and pay attention to their government [[something poor people don't do enough of because it's a struggle to keep breathing each morning), people who have quietly been grinding an ax against unions and think it will sock it to them, etc.

Your entire post was thought provoking for me. I want to focus on the paragraph written above.

Simple words can have different meanings based on our worldview and our cumulative experiences. For example, I've read some interesting studies about the difficulties teachers have with specific students. The difficulty lies not in their intellectual abilities or even in their willingness to work...rather, one major factor in the teaching process is a function of what beliefs the students hold about teachers in general.

For example, take the word, "teacher". If a parent came from a childhood where teachers treated them unfairly, caused emotional trauma, devalued them in some way, then it's not a surprise that those parents are inclined to raise kids who are taught to stand up against authority, rebel against any criticisms [[constructive or not), obey selectively. The emotions they experience when merely hearing the word "teacher" are worlds away from mine...teachers treated me justly, I always excelled in school and received an overabundance of positive messages, etc.

On a more personal level, I've had the fortune [[or misfortune) of having lived in many different sets of shoes. Words like "privilege" or "power" or "white" or "black" have different meanings for me than some of my friends. I've been hurt by the privileged and the powerful during much of my childhood. But I've had opportunities in adolescence and young adulthood where the privileged and powerful treated me in a way I considered just. And as an adult, I've been fortunate enough to live in the shoes of the privileged...but my formative experiences in youth keep me hyper-aware of wanting to act fairly and correct injustice.

So, I think you're right. You and I both see the word "privatization" and we imagine two very different visions in our mind. Your experience of it seems to revolve around good, hard working people suffering from pay cuts while the powerful and the well-connected benefit by padding contracts for their own benefit. And when thinking about it that way, I WOULD BE AGAINST PRIVATIZATION TOO!

Of course, when I think about privatization, I think that competing parties face off in a tournament to provide the highest performance at the lowest costs. And given that Detroiters: [[1) pay too much in taxes while [[2) receiving shitty services...certainly you can understand that in my vision of privatization, both those needs are directly addressed. Certainly, in my vision, if one private company is overpaying at the top at the expense of service to the customer...then another private company will force a face-off and try to demonstrate a combination of better/cheaper/faster.

Ah, but then what you write strikes an interesting chord.

Private markets work best when an informed consumer is making -- and able to make -- blindly objective and rational choices. [[This, btw, is why I can be totally in favor of private competition for some businesses...such as buying apples at Eastern Market while being in favor of public involvement for others, such as choosing a health care plan).

What's interesting about Detroit's history is that privatization has been so rifled with corruption that the pockets of the few at the expense of many. And so the benefits of privatization have rarely been even seen by the citizens -- which defeats the purpose of privatization to begin with.

At the same time, I know from my own experience and my father's [[who worked for the city) that Detroit is an organizational culture that resists change, is filled with inefficient layers of operations, is unwelcome to outsiders, is besieged with nepotism, and offers poor levels of service.

What is the solution to this? Is it privatization...which risks corruption and theft? Or is it staying with public management...which resists improvement and change?

Obviously, the answer is none of the above. At least not at face value.

I still choose to err toward privatization because: [[a) I'm one of your privileged examples that has time to write a 10 minute essay just for fun so that one day I'll have material for my stump speech and election campaign*, and [[b) if we make a mistake and pick a bad contractor, we can just find a better one.

But admittedly, I also have greater faith in our leadership because [[as per my example re: the word "teacher", my experiences with authority and leaders as been universally positive my whole life. And while my experience in leadership positions of organizations hasn't been perfect, it's filled with example after example of success despite challenging environments. In other words, I see leaders in a good light because I've been surrounded by good leaders and I see myself as one.

At the same time, from the shoes of the marginalized and poor...especially here in Detroit where leadership has been atrocious for one reason or another...and when the consequences of poor decision making has fallen disproportionately on the powerless and the oppressed....I can see why they [[or you) might see things very differently.

I guess at the end of the day, it's oversimplistic to merely state that privatization is or isn't the answer. But we do know that whichever answer we choose will require good, ethical leadership at the top....as well as an informed, better educated, better LED, bottom that is open to change. We've tried it with our current organization. Maybe it's time to try it with private contractors. Either way, all of this will require introspection and transformation from all the parties involved at all levels.

Will Detroit see that?

I am hopeful as my experience is that the new generation of young leaders is not bogged down with the old thinking that has mired us in the past. But to be realistic, it will probably take one more generation...20-30 years, before Detroit realizes the transformation it is wanting.

But, had we started 30 years ago, we'd be there today. So we might as well get moving.

*Just kidding about actually ever running for office.

[Detroitej72]

And I'll add Hamtramck to the list. State's guy Schimmel cleaned up the finances. He did his job. He wasn't liked. He did his job.

So to pull things back to the thread, there are three cities in Michigan that the State has successfully helped that we've listed so far.

Benton Harbor
Ecorse
Hamtramck

If you believe Hamtramck was better off after Louis Schimmel, then I have a bridge to sell you.

What Schimmel did, in a nutshell, was sell off city assets such as street sweepers, snow plows, DPW equipment, etc. and use the money to balance the budget. After that was done, Big John[[Engler) in Lansing proclaimed him "a success" and off he rode.

What Hamtown had to contend with after the savior was gone was how to preform simple city services without any equipment, and to figure out how to afford new machinery to replace all that was lost.

[313hero]

Synagro isn't so much an example of privatization gone wrong...it's more an example of what happens when the people running the city are operating in a manner that fall under the definitions of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act [[RICO).

Wrong. Synagro APPROACHED those people w/ those "bribes" not the other way around

[313hero]

DPW Does a Great Job. My Garbage is picked up every week w/ no problem. Bulk days get handled well and the dump is a great option to have.

[corktownyuppie]

Wrong. Synagro APPROACHED those people w/ those "bribes" not the other way around

I hold public officials to a higher standard than any of its contractors and vendors because they have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of their constituents.

Presuming that you're correct about who approached whom [[frankly, I don't know the details)...what I find relevant is not that Synagro offered the bribes, but that our public officials ACCEPTED them.

I hold them both responsible and think they're both dirty. The difference is that Synagro doesn't work for me, my elected officials do. And so I don't this as an example of why privatization doesn't work, I see it as an example of why privatization doesn't work when your elected officials are taking dirty money.

Maybe Detroit has had dirty leaders for so long that they think it's normal. I don't know. but that's what's gotta change. Wayne County not too far behind, either. I'm not giving them a free pass.

[esteban]

I lived in the financially exhausted City of Highland Park, and saw first hand what the State of Michigan did to that minority city.
However one would like to malign the Detroit City Council and the City Administration, one ought to keep in mind that THESE WERE ELECTED BY THE CITIZENS OF DETROIT!
The Governors constitutionally ILLEGAL decision to force the duly elected Mayor and Council to choose between slow asset-stripping or rapid asset-stripping is NO CHOICE at all.
This is nothing but an occupation force, imposing itself on a huge demographic minority. The Detroit Mayor and Council should recognize it as such, and REFUSE to be the tools of this morally illegal outrage. Going-along to get-along is NOT AN OPTION. It is nothing but an ignominious collaboration with a State that means Detroit no good.
The Governor of Michigan calls this a 'Consent agreement'. I think the citizens of Detroit have no alternative but to forge a 'Dissent Agreement'.

In the light of decades of neglect, this has gone beyond the morally bankrupt authority of the State of Michigan, which has strangled Detroit of resources for decades to the extent that it has now reached a point where the situation needs to become a Federal concern.

[Wesley Mouch]

If you believe Hamtramck was better off after Louis Schimmel, then I have a bridge to sell you.

What Schimmel did, in a nutshell, was sell off city assets such as street sweepers, snow plows, DPW equipment, etc. and use the money to balance the budget. After that was done, Big John[[Engler) in Lansing proclaimed him "a success" and off he rode.

What Hamtown had to contend with after the savior was gone was how to preform simple city services without any equipment, and to figure out how to afford new machinery to replace all that was lost.

I live in Hamtramck. Schimmel made it possible to make payroll. The ciy didn't go bankrupt. He did what the city wasn't capable of. That's a success.

After? Well, that's not the job of an EFM. That's the resident's job again.

What did you expect?

Can that bridge pay its bills from its own revenue?

[Detroitnerd]

Wait... it took 2 weeks for them to come out there... but they did it within a few hours?? .... "responsive"?? Well I guess it does depend on how severe the storm was.... and how much they had to do around the city... but 2 weeks is still a long time...

Well, we had trees down all over the neighborhood. We had some blocking streets; those were taken care of right away. I could see where my house, with a blocked driveway, was not as high a priority as removing downed trees that blocked traffic. Anyway, instead of having to hire a company to do it, I was surprised they did it so professionally. I mean, I really didn't expect anything, so when they came with a crew within two weeks, I was grateful and happy.

Certainly that's better service than some sub where the services can't get done because nobody's paying their association fees.

[Gannon]

In all of this, I've not heard a peep about the fact that the city only exists due the whims of the state chartering...am I not correct?! The state approved the creation of the city, and can make it null and void. Surely, that would incite full-scale rioting and/or civil unrest [[depending upon which term you choose to use)...but the charter was granted and can be removed.

That said, the city has been out-of-control my entire lifetime!

I'm not happy with the consent decree, but would most certainly be less happy with what seem to be the only other alternatives...bankruptcy or EFM.

From other discussions, it seems the state withheld some monies and forced the issue...but only quickened the pace of our eventual decline.

The total and complete dishonesty of the Kwhyme administration's accounting pushed this eventuality into the future, and the future is now. Blame HIM and everyone who trained and enabled him to become the crook that he became...all the way back to McNamara, who brought his daddy into the corruption.


We need to do what is best for everyone, and it seems this 'consent' agreement is the least harmful way to approach a positive solution to this morass.

Sincerely,
John

[313hero]

The total and complete dishonesty of the Kwhyme administration's accounting pushed this eventuality into the future, and the future is now. Blame HIM and everyone who trained and enabled him to become the crook that he became...all the way back to McNamara, who brought his daddy into the corruption.

LMAO- Blame Kwame cause the COD aint did shit for the last 4 years huh. LMAO. Just Blame Kwame for ALL of Detroits ills huh. LMAO. You must dont live here and not have a clue to what really is the problem in this City. Remember they came up w/ a new charter, new council, new Mayor, who havnt done shit in the last 4 years. Kwame was gone b4 Obama got elected. So its his fault that these assholes aint came up w/ nothing??? LMAO. the City was MUCH BETTER UNDER KWAME than it is TODAY. and if you dont agree you cant possibly live in Detroit, or you brainwashed.

[Gannon]

Hey, that corruption was quite a huge hole to get out of...if you really want to defend him, you are quite a piece of work.

Hell, it's taken OBAMA almost four years to figure out the mess he was gifted by W. How much progress has HE made?! Unfortunately, not much.

I do live here...and unfortunately, from the sounds of your justifications here...people just like YOU are really what the problem is in the city.

The charter was completed and voted in...and all of it is moving into place, but it is not going to solve everything magically. If you imagine that it should, you know nothing of the mechanisms and timing of the change-over.

The mayor and council were at the very least hampered by those who are aligned with the previous corruption...like YOU seem to be, or want to be...and I never fully felt that Bing was willing or able to get the job done.

IF you've been around here for any time at all, you'd know that I've been on the fence about Bing since the beginning. I was all but convinced he was a stooge brought in to CONTINUE the bullshit contrived and perpetrated by your [[weak-ass corrupt) man and those who hovered around him to put their hands in the till and steal their own stash...until I was brought back to being open to surprise after receiving some additional information from a few who knew he was meeting with Dennis Archer and a few others that are worthy of respect. There are FEW who've achieved office in the city and county who earn that.


But then again, you probably have some cute names for those like Mr. Archer, doncha?! Be honest...if you can muster it!


The city was a total wild-west bowl of corruption under Kwhyme. It might've been better for those stealing alongside him...but not for actual honest and caring citizens. Nice admitting to collusion with the crimes! We know you're 'one of them'! [[those troublemakers who steal and destroy instead of build and create)


Sincerely,
John

[Hermod]

In all of this, I've not heard a peep about the fact that the city only exists due the whims of the state chartering...am I not correct?! The state approved the creation of the city, and can make it null and void.

To be proper and avoid the endless kvetching from our resident peanut gallery, the city was incorporated while Michigan was still a territory. I would assume that the acts and authority of the territory would pass to the successor state.

[313hero]

Hey, that corruption was quite a huge hole to get out of...if you really want to defend him, you are quite a piece of work.

Hell, it's taken OBAMA almost four years to figure out the mess he was gifted by W. How much progress has HE made?! Unfortunately, not much.

I do live here...and unfortunately, from the sounds of your justifications here...people just like YOU are really what the problem is in the city.

The charter was completed and voted in...and all of it is moving into place, but it is not going to solve everything magically. If you imagine that it should, you know nothing of the mechanisms and timing of the change-over.

The mayor and council were at the very least hampered by those who are aligned with the previous corruption...like YOU seem to be, or want to be...and I never fully felt that Bing was willing or able to get the job done.

IF you've been around here for any time at all, you'd know that I've been on the fence about Bing since the beginning. I was all but convinced he was a stooge brought in to CONTINUE the bullshit contrived and perpetrated by your [[weak-ass corrupt) man and those who hovered around him to put their hands in the till and steal their own stash...until I was brought back to being open to surprise after receiving some additional information from a few who knew he was meeting with Dennis Archer and a few others that are worthy of respect. There are FEW who've achieved office in the city and county who earn that.


But then again, you probably have some cute names for those like Mr. Archer, doncha?! Be honest...if you can muster it!


The city was a total wild-west bowl of corruption under Kwhyme. It might've been better for those stealing alongside him...but not for actual honest and caring citizens. Nice admitting to collusion with the crimes! We know you're 'one of them'! [[those troublemakers who steal and destroy instead of build and create)


Sincerely,
John

Archer??? Really. Archer is a Bitch. I'll give it to him though he did get some things going but Kwame had to clean it up. Remember Archer hooked up the messed up deal w/ the Casinos for them to be on the River Front that ended up w/ the City OWING the CASINOS $150m. Yeah Archer got the Super Bowl to come here [[more than likely because of the New Stadium that was built) but I'll give him credit for it. Archer was apart of getting rid of residency and making a deal for revenue sharing that Obviously the State doesnt honor or gives a shit about. If you dont remember Archer was about to get recalled. If you dont recall Archer QUIT on Yall Archer lovers. He didnt seek reelection. Why? Please Explain to me why you liked Archer. Archer was just a good ol' boy.

[313hero]

As fare as me being" 'one of them'! [[those troublemakers who steal and destroy instead of build and create)" you obviously dont know me. I dont steal and I dont Lie. I may do some other things, but stealing and Lying is not what I do. And You obviously dont know about the $70m contract that was given to Hendrix Nephew for work that to this DAY is still not complete.