Protesters disrupt financial review board hearing in detroit

[greatman05]

As much as I don't want to leave, Detroit gives me no choice. There is NOTHING here for me. No jobs, no livable areas, no transportation, nothing. I really get tired of the race politics; it ain't about white vs. black. It's about stupid people electing even more stupid people to steal money from the city until there's nothing left. Apparently, Detroit doesn't care about the college-age students that want to live and work here. So, people want to burn the city down? It's whatever at this point; I just know I'm not gonna live in a shitty city after college. I can't do it anymore; I'm not gonna keep sticking up for a city that doesn't seem to have or want to come up with practical solutions for any of its problems.

[Detroitdave]

NoBody EVER asked L.Brooks to apologize for all the bull he's said over the years, nor him drunk driving, and he's an elected official. Shabazz not elected to anything. Why SHOULD he apologize for stating how he feels???

Uh yeah ! stating how he feels ? It's one thing to state how one feels, but its quite another stating we will burn it down before we give it back , the last time I check burning down a city is a crime because he is telling folks "we'll burn down the city before we give it back . I live in the city , That kinda makes me uneasy , I live in the CITY, my family lives in the city, and when I hear someone say " We'll burn it down before we give it back" I have a problem.
L.brooks isn't a person I'm found of either and even though it's sad about the drunk driving , he's not the first and won't be the last to do so and thank goodness no one was hurt. And shabazz SHOULD apologize , BECAUSE ! IF he was a white man saying , wouldn't EVERYONE in this city would be in and uproar ?
Do you think Dr King would ever advocate "burning down a city? "

[Novine]

'Do you think Dr King would ever advocate "burning down a city?"'

No.

[Wesley Mouch]

Uh yeah ! stating how he feels ? It's one thing to state how one feels, but its quite another stating we will burn it down before we give it back , the last time I check burning down a city is a crime because he is telling folks "we'll burn down the city before we give it back . I live in the city , That kinda makes me uneasy , I live in the CITY, my family lives in the city, and when I hear someone say " We'll burn it down before we give it back" I have a problem.
L.brooks isn't a person I'm found of either and even though it's sad about the drunk driving , he's not the first and won't be the last to do so and thank goodness no one was hurt. And shabazz SHOULD apologize , BECAUSE ! IF he was a white man saying , wouldn't EVERYONE in this city would be in and uproar ?
Do you think Dr King would ever advocate "burning down a city? "

At the risk of getting those who see everything as driven by race...

The 'if he were a white man' argument is valid, but it does ignore 'racism'.

If this were 1850 or 1960, where white oppression of the black man was tangible and evident, I would strongly have defended Mr. Shabazz. It was hard then for the victim of oppression by legal power to 'feel' anything but anger towards whites.

Fast forward to today, with a Black Man in the White House and where most family gatherings in the suburbs include loved members of both races. Sure, you can find white idiots who are racist, but its easier to examples where a former Archie Bunker now loves his black daughter-in-law as much as his own daughter.

Detroit's never was a black city or a white city. Its just our city.

Who does it help to keep this discussion of race going? I think it just hurts blacks who do have less assets that whites, as a result of past racism. Fixing that requires investment. Investment requires open arms, not blame.

[Wesley Mouch]

'Do you think Dr King would ever advocate "burning down a city?"'

No.

Novster --- The same might not have been true for El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, better known as Malcolm X

I've wondered what the world would have looked like if Dr. King had not been slaughtered by some idiot. Could he have marginalized hate-mongering in black thought had he lived?

[Detroitdave]

At the risk of getting those who see everything as driven by race...

The 'if he were a white man' argument is valid, but it does ignore 'racism'.

If this were 1850 or 1960, where white oppression of the black man was tangible and evident, I would strongly have defended Mr. Shabazz. It was hard then for the victim of oppression by legal power to 'feel' anything but anger towards whites.

Fast forward to today, with a Black Man in the White House and where most family gatherings in the suburbs include loved members of both races. Sure, you can find white idiots who are racist, but its easier to examples where a former Archie Bunker now loves his black daughter-in-law as much as his own daughter.

Detroit's never was a black city or a white city. Its just our city.

Who does it help to keep this discussion of race going? I think it just hurts blacks who do have less assets that whites, as a result of past racism. Fixing that requires investment. Investment requires open arms, not blame.

Sadly racism is the 5,000 lbs Gorilla in the room . In a city with a history race problems , racism will rear it's ugly head. And it's always the loud mouths in the room get the attention. Hopefully rational minds will provail ?
This city IS all of our city black / white / blue. Change is not easy, it wasn't in the 40's , 60's and today. This city CANNOT move forward in it's current state, we all know that .
Sometime changes are tough and we've been told time and time again , " we have some tough decisions to make"
Well ,the decisions are A LOT tougher than anyone could have imaged .
The true weight of the situation is ALOT dire than anyone could have imaged.
This is VERY serious and extremely painful , but it has to be done.
It's gotten so bad for so long ,we have VERY few options and none of them are popular ?
We don't want a Federal Judge coming in , because if you think this is tough now, Wait till you have a federal Judge coming in cutting , he will care less about ANY unions, his jobs is to cut cost not grow Detroit . At least with the state they have a vested interest in GROWING Detroit . A federal judge could care less .
Lets go with as fair as possible of a consent agreement. Give the city council and mayor the powers they need to run the day to day city business, but they have to fiduciary responsibility . They have to answer to someone, and not just the citizens of Detroit , we see how that turned out .
MOVE THIS CITY FORWARD!

[Wesley Mouch]

Sadly racism is the 5,000 lbs Gorilla in the room . In a city with a history race problems , racism will rear it's ugly head. And it's always the loud mouths in the room get the attention. Hopefully rational minds will provail ?
This city IS all of our city black / white / blue. Change is not easy, it wasn't in the 40's , 60's and today. This city CANNOT move forward in it's current state, we all know that .
Sometime changes are tough and we've been told time and time again , " we have some tough decisions to make"
Well ,the decisions are A LOT tougher than anyone could have imaged .
The true weight of the situation is ALOT dire than anyone could have imaged.
This is VERY serious and extremely painful , but it has to be done.
It's gotten so bad for so long ,we have VERY few options and none of them are popular ?
We don't want a Federal Judge coming in , because if you think this is tough now, Wait till you have a federal Judge coming in cutting , he will care less about ANY unions, his jobs is to cut cost not grow Detroit . At least with the state they have a vested interest in GROWING Detroit . A federal judge could care less .
Lets go with as fair as possible of a consent agreement. Give the city council and mayor the powers they need to run the day to day city business, but they have to fiduciary responsibility . They have to answer to someone, and not just the citizens of Detroit , we see how that turned out .
MOVE THIS CITY FORWARD!

Racism is the 2,200 kg. gorilla only so long as we accept it. Sure, some racism exists. But frankly nearly zero of it has anything to do with today's situation -- except that corrupt black leaders are using it as a tool to maintain control.

Right now a lot of bright, progressive leaders black/white/green Democrats/Republicans/Libertarians are all working hard to create a future for Detroit.

And a few self-serving, mostly black people who claim to be leaders but are truly leaches are holding back Detroit's future by clinging to the status quo at great cost to the under-advantaged residents.

Funny, isn't it, that today's oppression of black Detroiters is mostly from black 'leaders'.

First step in our 12-step program should be recognizing the fools posing as leaders and seeing them for the addiction that they are. Enjoyable to consume, but very harmful.

[antongast]

Racism is the 2,200 kg. gorilla only so long as we accept it. Sure, some racism exists. But frankly nearly zero of it has anything to do with today's situation -- except that corrupt black leaders are using it as a tool to maintain control.

Funny, isn't it, that today's oppression of black Detroiters is mostly from black 'leaders'.

This analysis doesn't seem right to me at all. Think about it this way, for example [[I could list factors like this all night, but at some point you have to learn to think for yourself):

Black people have a much higher unemployment rate than white people. Now, job discrimination is supposed to be illegal, and there aren't Klansmen running around in white hoods preventing black people from getting jobs, but due to a combination of systemic factors, black people have a harder time getting jobs than white people. I call this racism. I've heard people argue that this is something other than racism, but when you strip that argument down to its essence, it ends up being something about how black people are generally inferior in some way that makes them less deserving of jobs, which is a) skeezy and b) not backed up by any credible evidence.

So, now you have Detroit, an overwhelmingly black city, where unemployment is insanely high relative to national and statewide averages [[there are other factors besides racism that contribute to this, of course, but racism is a huge part of it, and any explanation of this that ignores the consistent racial disparities in unemployment rates is going to be woefully incomplete and inaccurate). High unemployment brings with it all kinds of issues ranging from increased demand for city services to higher crime to less tax revenue. This directly contributes to Detroit's financial crisis in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with "corrupt black leaders."

If you're looking for lynch mobs and fat redneck sheriffs and burning crosses, of course you won't find any evidence of racism. I don't think that's a very honest way to look at the world, though.

[Wesley Mouch]

This analysis doesn't seem right to me at all. Think about it this way, for example [[I could list factors like this all night, but at some point you have to learn to think for yourself):

Black people have a much higher unemployment rate than white people. Now, job discrimination is supposed to be illegal, and there aren't Klansmen running around in white hoods preventing black people from getting jobs, but due to a combination of systemic factors, black people have a harder time getting jobs than white people. I call this racism. I've heard people argue that this is something other than racism, but when you strip that argument down to its essence, it ends up being something about how black people are generally inferior in some way that makes them less deserving of jobs, which is a) skeezy and b) not backed up by any credible evidence.

So, now you have Detroit, an overwhelmingly black city, where unemployment is insanely high relative to national and statewide averages [[there are other factors besides racism that contribute to this, of course, but racism is a huge part of it, and any explanation of this that ignores the consistent racial disparities in unemployment rates is going to be woefultly incomplete and inaccurate). High unemployment brings with it all kinds of issues ranging from increased demand for city services to higher crime to less tax revenue. This directly contributes to Detroit's financial crisis in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with "corrupt black leaders."

If you're looking for lynch mobs and fat redneck sheriffs and burning crosses, of course you won't find any evidence of racism. I don't think that's a very honest way to look at the world, though.

You see racism as a major factor in Detroit's unemployment. I do not. I see it as a very minor factor. Yes. A factor.

Where we might agree is that racism has a historical link to today's unemployment in Detroit. But unfortunately, you can't change the past.

I find your point of view very sad. To see racism as a major factor in Detroit's decline. I see so much positive in race relations. I'm truly amazed. Years ago, it was unknown to see cross-racial couples in Detroit. You had to go to Toronto or NYC. Today, I have several relatives across race lines. Ask kids today about race, and I think you'll find that they mostly couldn't care less. Sure, there's segregation in many places. But there's also a whole lot of just life going on. And no one cares about race so much. Its a great place to be. You should try it.

Or maybe you like it in the land where so much blame can be laid on the feet of the evil white man. If 1/10 the energy were spent on productive activity instead of chasing racist ghosts, amazing things can be done.

Or you can just continue as we have been.

The good news, is as the young children today take over -- it'll be game over for those who enjoy blaming racism.

[antongast]

Where we might agree is that racism has a historical link to today's unemployment in Detroit. But unfortunately, you can't change the past.

It's not the past. It's now. If you can't wrap your mind around that, you'll never come up with anything approaching a coherent analysis of Detroit.

[corktownyuppie]

It's not the past. It's now. If you can't wrap your mind around that, you'll never come up with anything approaching a coherent analysis of Detroit.

There are three types of racism at play here. One is the cross-burning lynch mobs you refer to. The second is the type of de facto racism that occurs when my parents seem to magically gravitate to the 3 other strangers who happen to share their race when in a group of people they don't know. The last is the type of racism best summarized as "equal treatment, unequal effect".

This last is sometimes difficult for majority race people to understand, because it's not the result of explicitly racist motives or decisions. In fact, you can even go out of your way to attempt to make fair-minded race-blind rules...and still disproportionately effect one group over another.

One example of this was when designers were debating the number of womens' bathrooms they were looking to put in a stadium. [[I believe it was Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor or it might have been Comerica Park in Detroit). On one hand people called for an equal number of men's rooms to women's rooms. Of course, the problem with this is that the average duration for women bathroom is use is much, much higher than men -- who at Michigan stadium urinate in groups of 14 or 15 into a common trough. The result...the unintended effect...was that despite there being an equal number of bathrooms, the lines for the womens' bathrooms were always far greater.

And I believe that's what Antongast is referring to. There are plenty of laws that have been passed in Michigan that are fair-minded and likely intended to be equitable. But for reasons that are cultural, emotional -- even irrational -- they disproportionately affect Blacks. Negatively.

I actually have great empathy for this, and I also think it goes unacknowledged by many non-Blacks.

================

Howeva, at the end of the day, financial math supersedes political math. And while I believe that we should be cognizant of racial overtones and emotions while deliberating how to execute the necessary changes....it shouldn't affect what changes are necessary, and therefore, what changes will be made.

[Wesley Mouch]

There are three types of racism at play here. One is the cross-burning lynch mobs you refer to. The second is the type of de facto racism that occurs when my parents seem to magically gravitate to the 3 other strangers who happen to share their race when in a group of people they don't know. The last is the type of racism best summarized as "equal treatment, unequal effect".

This last is sometimes difficult for majority race people to understand, because it's not the result of explicitly racist motives or decisions. In fact, you can even go out of your way to attempt to make fair-minded race-blind rules...and still disproportionately effect one group over another.

<snip good example>

And I believe that's what Antongast is referring to. There are plenty of laws that have been passed in Michigan that are fair-minded and likely intended to be equitable. But for reasons that are cultural, emotional -- even irrational -- they disproportionately affect Blacks. Negatively.

I actually have great empathy for this, and I also think it goes unacknowledged by many non-Blacks.

================

Howeva, at the end of the day, financial math supersedes political math. And while I believe that we should be cognizant of racial overtones and emotions while deliberating how to execute the necessary changes....it shouldn't affect what changes are necessary, and therefore, what changes will be made.

Yuppie -- thanks for the discussion. I have tried to understand the 'equal treatment, unequal effect' racism. As a non-black, I agree it is not easy. You can only do your best to respect the thoughts and feelings of those who experienced and experience it.

Racism was defined once by a black discussion panel on the radio as the use of racial group in power to suppress or harm another racial group. That the power to apply oppressive power is a critical component. By that definition, reverse discrimination can't exist. Its not possible for the powerless group to use power against the powerful group. That definition led me to a some understanding of the mindset held by some blacks. How dare i say this? Who do I think I am?

I see the harm done to black society by clinging to the racial discrimination issue. I can be silent. Or I can speak. I'd rather discuss and learn. And I do hope my opinions do not offend. They shouldn't.

What I believe is that racism discrimination receives far more credit than it deserves for the current state of Detroit. The protesters at the meeting are doing harm to Detroit and black Detroit by their actions.

[antongast]

I can be silent. Or I can speak. I'd rather discuss and learn.

Well, we're certainly discussing. Do you really want to learn? Or do you just want people to stop taking issue with your posts? I don't see anyone in here trying to silence you. Nobody says you can't post or you shouldn't post. I just happen to think your posts get a lot of things wrong.

[corktownyuppie]

Well, we're certainly discussing. Do you really want to learn? Or do you just want people to stop taking issue with your posts? I don't see anyone in here trying to silence you. Nobody says you can't post or you shouldn't post. I just happen to think your posts get a lot of things wrong.

Well, I certainly don't speak for Wesley Mouch. I can say that I definitely want to learn. And, perhaps I'm delusional, but I'd like to think that I'm open-minded enough to entertain ideas that are either foreign or uncomfortable to me.

But I also ask the same question to you. Are you willing to entertain ideas that might be contradictory to the beliefs you strongly hold? One thing that doesn't usually get mentioned is that the financial rules that the state is asking Detroit to follow are the same rules that the State of Georgia asks Atlanta to meet, and Georgia is 50-60% black. Moreover, if Atlanta were running its government with the same financial state that Detroit is, they, too would be in this situation.

The other question is the one I keep raising. For those who are against State action, then what are they in favor of? Bankruptcy? Minting our own currency and paying our debt in Detroit Dollars? There's a lot of whooping and hollering about what we don't want. What *does* Detroit want?

An infusion of cash? Even if the state were willing to entertain that request, there's no way they would do so unless they could control where the cash was spent. Is that racist? No, that's just how money works. You wouldn't give your money to someone who has demonstrated poor decision-making unless you could be assured that it would be used responsibly.

So Shabazz, Watson, Kenyatta....what is it that you want? We know what you don't want. What do you want to happen so that it's not rioting on Grand River?

[antongast]

But I also ask the same question to you. Are you willing to entertain ideas that might be contradictory to the beliefs you strongly hold?

I don't know how to answer this. It depends on a lot of different things. One answer might be that I'm willing to entertain new ideas, but I get frustrated revisiting ideas that I've already considered at length and ultimately rejected as I gained new information that contradicted them. Wesley's narrative about race is pretty much the mainstream status quo narrative about race among people who don't really think about race: it used to be a problem in the past, now we're post-racial and we need to move on, and to the extent that there's still a problem it's caused by people thinking there's still a problem when there isn't. I don't see anything new there. It's nothing I haven't thought about before. If I come off as impatient with him, that's why.

As far as the EM/consent agreement in Detroit, I don't think my position on that is particularly rigid or ideological. I get annoyed when people act like it's a long-term solution to our problems, because I don't see how that's going to work and nobody has explained it to my satisfaction. I get annoyed when people uncritically accept ideas like "privatizing services will improve service quality, save the city money, and reduce corruption," because that directly contradicts my observations of how the world works, and it feels to me like a lot of smart, progressive people are carrying water for some folks that they probably wouldn't knowingly carry water for. None of that means I have a Grand Plan To Save Detroit If Only They'd Put Me In Charge mapped out in my head. I can think of a long list of philosophical and policy shifts by various people and institutions in the city and region that would each help a little, and all together would help a lot, and it's frustrating to me that everyone's just thinking about how to patch over the immediate financial crisis and not how to fix the system. Detroit running out of money at this point in time is just a symptom of a whole lot of other fucked-up things that have been going on for a very long time, both inside and outside the city government.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't know how to answer this. It depends on a lot of different things. One answer might be that I'm willing to entertain new ideas, but I get frustrated revisiting ideas that I've already considered at length and ultimately rejected as I gained new information that contradicted them. Wesley's narrative about race is pretty much the mainstream status quo narrative about race among people who don't really think about race: it used to be a problem in the past, now we're post-racial and we need to move on, and to the extent that there's still a problem it's caused by people thinking there's still a problem when there isn't. I don't see anything new there. It's nothing I haven't thought about before. If I come off as impatient with him, that's why.

As far as the EM/consent agreement in Detroit, I don't think my position on that is particularly rigid or ideological. I get annoyed when people act like it's a long-term solution to our problems, because I don't see how that's going to work and nobody has explained it to my satisfaction. I get annoyed when people uncritically accept ideas like "privatizing services will improve service quality, save the city money, and reduce corruption," because that directly contradicts my observations of how the world works, and it feels to me like a lot of smart, progressive people are carrying water for some folks that they probably wouldn't knowingly carry water for. None of that means I have a Grand Plan To Save Detroit If Only They'd Put Me In Charge mapped out in my head. I can think of a long list of philosophical and policy shifts by various people and institutions in the city and region that would each help a little, and all together would help a lot, and it's frustrating to me that everyone's just thinking about how to patch over the immediate financial crisis and not how to fix the system. Detroit running out of money at this point in time is just a symptom of a whole lot of other fucked-up things that have been going on for a very long time, both inside and outside the city government.

First, I agree that no one should be acting uncritically. Privatization doesn't work universally, free markets don't work universally and -- frankly -- nothing works universally. I guess you could say I'm one of the last standing moderates. I advocate for privatization in Detroit not because it fits within my ideology...but because my father worked for the city, and he's seen firsthand the productivity losses caused by a structure designed for a time which passed us long ago.

I think the appetite for the ideas/philosophical shifts exists, I really do. And I don't think that EM or bankruptcy is the long-term solution to anything. But it's the first and necessary step in this moment. For many people, and I'm one of them, we're anxious to get moving to the long-term idea-generating. What's frustrating is that we can't get to it until we deal with issue. And furthermore, for those of us who saw this issue coming at us for years, we see the problem as one which only gets more painful over time.

So our hurry to get moving isn't to create pain. It's to prevent the inevitable pain from getting worse. The problem is that while everyone knows how this is going to end...the gridlock to get anything done is infuriating.

Lastly, as far as the racial overtones of the political debate...I think that all the voiced feelings -- as extreme as they sometimes are -- are valid. The problem is that they're being voiced in counter-productive ways. So, now we have a valid emotion that needs to be expressed, but instead of finding a constructive way to express it...it comes out while we're in the middle of trying to put out a 4-alarm fire.

In any case, I find your opinions to be well-thought out, and the dialogue generally constructive...even if we don't always agree. What angers me is that there's so much emotion in the public debate, that it's not getting anywhere.

And we're just wasting time.

Enough. Let's go through the pain now so we can work on the long-term solutions sooner rather than later.

[ragnarok1981]

Protesters and elected officials alike have been using this "Us" vs "them" mentality for too long and it needs to end. I am a white resident of Detroit and the 6th generation of my family to reside in the city. I have the feeling that my roots here are probably far deeper than most of the loud mouth hate mongers who claim that this is a black city and that the white man is out to get them. When I watched clips from the financial review committee meetings, and watched the city council meeting last night I was astounded at what I saw happening. I am a supporter of free speech, but I think at times there should be limits, and this was a prime example. When people get up to speak and go so far as to threaten council members by claiming that they will make sure everyone knows where they live and their phone numbers, I think a line should be drawn to say that is not ok. What is worse is that I see JoAnn Watson egging on all this hate because she is one of the worst offenders around. There is no debate on whether or not blacks were mistreated in the past due to racist policies by local and state government, but that was the past and needs to remain in the past. Yes I know there are still problems with racism but the old way of thinking that Coleman Young championed needs to end and it needs to end now. People have been riled up by all the lies and half truths surrounding the consent agreement to the point of where they lose all sense of reality and start making claims that sound like they are coming from a crazy person ranting on a street corner. I cannot claim to know what it has been like to have ancestors who were enslaved or to have faced overt racism, but with that being said I don't see how anyone can rationally make claims about the state coming here to enslave the blacks and steal everything of value in the city. Then to call members of the council "Uncle toms" or other racist and insulting names is outrageous and should not be allowed to happen. Personally I think that JoAnn Watson probably does not even realize how hateful she really is, I think her paranoia of racism has turned her into a racist. A majority of those who made threats or made racist remarks at last nights meeting also spoke highly of Watson in their comments.
If we want this city to get past this stage we need to get beyond this backwards way of thinking and work together with the rest of the state to make Detroit a better place.
Lastly I want to speak to the argument that the outsiders are coming to loot and pillage the city. First of all there is not much left that is of any real value that would not cost more to maintain than it is worth. Our parks are in a sorry state and full of garbage because the people in this city have had little regard for picking up the trash they leave behind. Our infrastructure is crumbling away and that includes the water department which so many claim that our neighboring counties are so desperate to get their hands on. The water system is old, it has not had any kind of serious upgrading done on it in who knows how long, and I bet that a lot of the pipes are more patchwork than actual pipe any longer. Detroit has been sitting around not taking care of itself for far too long and it has gotten to the point where if it were a human being it would be suffering from massive organ failure. But if the State were the doctor and trying to help the patient would be refusing care because they dont trust the doctor and would rather just die.
It is time for the people in this city to wake up and accept the fact that we cannot go it alone anymore. Demanding more time to solve the problems ourselves was simply not an option and honestly why should anyone believe that the city could fix the problem now when they have not been able to for how many decades now?

[Buy American]

Protesters and elected officials alike have been using this "Us" vs "them" mentality for too long and it needs to end. I am a white resident of Detroit and the 6th generation of my family to reside in the city. I have the feeling that my roots here are probably far deeper than most of the loud mouth hate mongers who claim that this is a black city and that the white man is out to get them. When I watched clips from the financial review committee meetings, and watched the city council meeting last night I was astounded at what I saw happening. I am a supporter of free speech, but I think at times there should be limits, and this was a prime example. When people get up to speak and go so far as to threaten council members by claiming that they will make sure everyone knows where they live and their phone numbers, I think a line should be drawn to say that is not ok. What is worse is that I see JoAnn Watson egging on all this hate because she is one of the worst offenders around. There is no debate on whether or not blacks were mistreated in the past due to racist policies by local and state government, but that was the past and needs to remain in the past. Yes I know there are still problems with racism but the old way of thinking that Coleman Young championed needs to end and it needs to end now. People have been riled up by all the lies and half truths surrounding the consent agreement to the point of where they lose all sense of reality and start making claims that sound like they are coming from a crazy person ranting on a street corner. I cannot claim to know what it has been like to have ancestors who were enslaved or to have faced overt racism, but with that being said I don't see how anyone can rationally make claims about the state coming here to enslave the blacks and steal everything of value in the city. Then to call members of the council "Uncle toms" or other racist and insulting names is outrageous and should not be allowed to happen. Personally I think that JoAnn Watson probably does not even realize how hateful she really is, I think her paranoia of racism has turned her into a racist. A majority of those who made threats or made racist remarks at last nights meeting also spoke highly of Watson in their comments.
If we want this city to get past this stage we need to get beyond this backwards way of thinking and work together with the rest of the state to make Detroit a better place.
Lastly I want to speak to the argument that the outsiders are coming to loot and pillage the city. First of all there is not much left that is of any real value that would not cost more to maintain than it is worth. Our parks are in a sorry state and full of garbage because the people in this city have had little regard for picking up the trash they leave behind. Our infrastructure is crumbling away and that includes the water department which so many claim that our neighboring counties are so desperate to get their hands on. The water system is old, it has not had any kind of serious upgrading done on it in who knows how long, and I bet that a lot of the pipes are more patchwork than actual pipe any longer. Detroit has been sitting around not taking care of itself for far too long and it has gotten to the point where if it were a human being it would be suffering from massive organ failure. But if the State were the doctor and trying to help the patient would be refusing care because they dont trust the doctor and would rather just die.
It is time for the people in this city to wake up and accept the fact that we cannot go it alone anymore. Demanding more time to solve the problems ourselves was simply not an option and honestly why should anyone believe that the city could fix the problem now when they have not been able to for how many decades now?

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is an honest post and I know it is heartfelt. You are absolutely right when you describe the council meetings and the threats and venom that is spewed from individuals who want others to think they represent the City taxpayers. I couldn't believe half of the things coming out of their mouths and some should have been ejected from the meetings. One particular man, who has obviously been injured, who wears finger gloves, was very angry and very threatening. Totally uncalled for.
Also, your observation of JoAnn Watson is correct. You can hear her in the background, "that's right", "un huh", and all her under the breath comments just egged on the hate mongers. She needs to remember that she got caught paying only $68 in yearly taxes while she complains about the State. No white person could get in front of the council and spew the hate and get away with it, a mini riot would have erupted inside the chambers.
Again, you are correct about not much being left to pillage within City limits. Things of value [[either monetarily or sentimentally) have been torn down, burned down, looted, or just ignored for decades. If people care so much now, where have they been all this time. It doesn't take much to get out and clean up a neighborhood. If anyone noticed, most of the annual clean ups in Detroit are done by white suburbanites...just look at the footage of the Fort Wayne clean up last week, or the neighborhood clean up by students last week.
Anyway, thanks for the frank post.

[Danny]

GHETTO ALERT!

Detroit City Council reached consent agreement avoiding Governor Synder, The Nerd to appoint an Emergency Manager.

A nine member financial team will oversee and spend city money giving by statutory revenue sharing, city and suburban tax dollars to pay off its public and national debt of 20 billion dollars. City money will be spend on improving Detroit's regional infrastructure from its police depts. to D-DOT bus drivers. Its city unions will be forced to give up sum amount of salary dollars for concessions. This would be rough road to rennaisance in the Motor City.


This is just like out of ancient European history.




"I SAW A GOTHIC KING AND HIS WARRIORS MARCHED INTO THE ONCE GLORIOUS CITY OF ROME. THEY MARCHED INTO THE IMPERIAL PALACE AND THERE SAT THE ROMAN EMPEROR ROMULUS AUGUSTLUS. BESIDE HIM WAS A FEW SENATORS AND POPE SIMPLICIUS. THE GERMAN KING SAID 'I AM ODOACER, KING OF GOTHS, ROME BELONGS TO ME. GIVE ME YOUR CROWN AND WILL SPARE ROME AND ITS PEOPLE.' EMPEROR AUGUSTULUS GIVE THE KING HIS GOLDEN LAUREL WREATH CROWN AND THUS END AGE OF THE ROMANS AND THEIR MIGHTY EMPIRE HAS FALLEN."

April 4th 2012 will mark the day that Black Detroit has fallen to Lansing.

LANSING CONQUERS DETROIT!

This is the truly the end of Black Detroit A.D. 1975 to A.D. 2012.

[Buy American]

^^^^That's a very racist statement Danny.

"April 4th 2012 will mark the day that Black Detroit has fallen to Lansing."
Is Detroit all black? I didn't know that.

"LANSING CONQUERS DETROIT!"
Detroit is part of Michigan, Lansing is helping Detroit.

"This is the truly the end of Black Detroit A.D. 1975 to A.D. 2012."

Again, is Detroit owned and operated by blacks? I think not.

[ragnarok1981]

Danny with all due respect you are way off the mark there. The comparison you use has nothing to do with the situation now. You and so many others seem to forget the simple fact that you live in the state of Michigan, it is not like some foreign enemy is invading us. The state is in a way like the parent of the city and it is responsible for handling the mess that the city is in. You are obviously angry about the situation going on but have you or anyone else for that matter really come up with a realistic alternative? The financial review board will not be some tyrant ruling over the city, but will be an oversight entity to ensure that the money is being handled correctly for a change in this city which has not been able to manage its finances in decades on its own. The city would run out of money very soon which left the state government with two options, and those options would be the same two options if the governor was black, white, brown, green, or polka dotted. They could either install an emergency manager which would be the very thing you fear so much who would take away power from the mayor and city council. Or the state could let the city declare bankruptcy and that would put a federal bankruptcy judge in the position to sell off anything and everything to ensure that the city would meet its debt obligations.
So far I have heard a few basic alternatives to what is going on here. The first is for the state to do nothing and somehow the city will magically fix everything when they have been unable to do it before and have not shown the capability to do it in the future either. Second option is the state turns over a big chunk of money to the city that is supposedly owed to the city, and the city will use that to fix everything. That is the equivalent to giving a junkie a ton of cash to get them in rehab and saying "hey I trust that you won't spend that on drugs and will get yourself clean". The last option I have heard is from one of our congressman who has this insane idea that the congress would actually be willing to bail out Detroit. That option has about as much of a chance as me sprouting wings and flying to windsor.
You and the other protesters need to step back and look at who got you in this mess in the first place. You can and probably will blame the state but they only have a small factor in this mess. The real problem is that the city government has for too long acted like a bunch of ostriches with their heads in the sand ignoring the problem until it came and kicked them right in the ass. This was not a sudden problem that came out of nowhere, it was years if not decades in the making and our city leaders [[including those who have been siting on the city council for quite a long time ie Watson, Kenyatta, Cockrel) have done nothing about it until the last minute. If the city wants to survive it needs to start being proactive rather than reactive in how it handles things. We cannot sit back and watch things decay and wave goodbye to all the people fleeing the city, we need to improve the city piece by piece and make it not just a place that is livable for those who are already here but inviting to those who might wish to move here. Ultimately that means we need to ditch this whole idea of the big bad white man is out to destroy the city because like it or not but Detroit cannot survive as just a black city, it needs to be a city of many peoples working together.

[GoGrixdale]

BA: Danny is no more racist than you or me. Misunderstood maybe but not racist...


....just Danny



Methinks the omission of "Neda" caused slight confusion.

[Danny]

^^^^That's a very racist statement Danny.

"April 4th 2012 will mark the day that Black Detroit has fallen to Lansing."
Is Detroit all black? I didn't know that.

"LANSING CONQUERS DETROIT!"
Detroit is part of Michigan, Lansing is helping Detroit.

"This is the truly the end of Black Detroit A.D. 1975 to A.D. 2012."

Again, is Detroit owned and operated by blacks? I think not.

You can't call my codespeak racist until to see the contents. Black Detroit has fallen to Lansing means that the State will be take over some of Detroit's financial situation.

Lansing Conquers Detroit means a state takeover.

"This is truly the end of Black Detroit A.D. 1975 to A.D. 2012 means poor low-income blacks and its old guard politics had ran Detroit to the ground. Having Lansing takeover Detroit is not racist. Poor city government corruption since the time of Mayor Hazen S. Pingree to Kwame Kilpatrick with the flight of white and black middle class and segregation has stabbed Detroit in the back. Whoever can't run a major government MUST BE RECALLED or fixed. That is general rule of democracy. BLAME THE ABUSE OF POWER! not race.

[gnome]

Danny is not a racist. Period. End of story.

Ragnarok1981, I would like to read your posts, but the solid pluck of text is just too daunting. Could you please use the "Return" key to separate your thoughts?

Use it twice, for double the fun. thanx

[Zacha341]

Agreed Gnome... when I see a five-inch deep block of type like that - dense without paragraph breaks I tend to not read it.

Not being the grammar police, but breaking up thoughts into shorter sentences, or breaking up the longer ones with spacing actually adds to clarity and puts more emphasis on the point[[s).