Does Dan Gilbert Want to Put an Infinity Pool on New Building?

[Curbed Detroit]

We've been hearing a rumor that Dan Gilbert wants to put an infinity pool on a building downtown. We believe it will be the new building he wants to add to the old Hudsons site. This is the best rendering we have seen so far. Does anyone know more? Who is designing this and where are more images? Thanks!

[gthomas]

Hopefully this will not be the final rendering, also haven't heard about no infinity pool. Hope he design a building without more parking on top of an existing parking structure.

[DetroitPlanner]

That sounds downright silly. Putting a pool on top of a building adds quite a bit to the load. I am sure an infinity pool is much more complex in terms of engineering. The engineering cost of this would be obscene for something that would at best be usefull 3 months a year. Better to put it in the basement. After all, they won't need all of that parking once M1 gets built right?

[gthomas]

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...quare-foot.php

Detroit's Residential Rental Rate Goal: $2 Per Square Foot

[wolverine]

That sounds downright silly. Putting a pool on top of a building adds quite a bit to the load. I am sure an infinity pool is much more complex in terms of engineering. The engineering cost of this would be obscene for something that would at best be usefull 3 months a year. Better to put it in the basement. After all, they won't need all of that parking once M1 gets built right?

Your assumptions are incorrect.

[rb336]

That sounds downright silly. Putting a pool on top of a building adds quite a bit to the load. I am sure an infinity pool is much more complex in terms of engineering. The engineering cost of this would be obscene for something that would at best be usefull 3 months a year. Better to put it in the basement. After all, they won't need all of that parking once M1 gets built right?

There are a lot of buildings with roof-top pools, like the Chicagoan [[which also has a bbq grille sun deck. I want to live there). It is a great perk. Rooftop pools CAN be made as year-round pools. I have seen them with those inflatable domes in winter.

[Det_ard]

I've seen a lot of rooftop pools in other northern cities.

[wolverine]

There are a lot of buildings with roof-top pools, like the Chicagoan [[which also has a bbq grille sun deck. I want to live there). It is a great perk. Rooftop pools CAN be made as year-round pools. I have seen them with those inflatable domes in winter.

Almost always, water containing vessels have their weight transferred directly to the columns, so floor load isn't an issue since the vessel..usually steel will support the water.

I wouldn't be designing a "pure" infinity pool either. Usually there's some sort of shelf below with railings for fall protection and pans for water collection. Visually, these are cleverly obscured

The Chicagoan is a nice building, my friend lives there. Right now I'm looking at moving to two buildings with rooftop pools...one that will be placed above an existing parking garage and and another atop a midrise portion of a highrise residential building. I've been told they will be open half the year

[DetroitPlanner]

There are a lot of buildings with roof-top pools, like the Chicagoan [[which also has a bbq grille sun deck. I want to live there). It is a great perk. Rooftop pools CAN be made as year-round pools. I have seen them with those inflatable domes in winter.

Is the dome a retrofit? Why not design the building correctly to begin with? I have been in hotels with pools on high floors, but in general they also have a lot of walls to hide collumns too. A pool could be put up there, but why? If a pool is built here it should be indoors to maximize its attractiveness to tennants. You can still have a deack and large sliding windows to give it an open feeling. You can even do a garage door style window treatment.

[downtownguy]

Curbed, I've got to say I'm having a hard time warming up to your ezine. Is this the best you can come up with?

Chairman and founder of Quicken Loans [[and bulk buyer of downtown buildings), Dan Gilbert, must have tipped someone heavily at the Crain's Detroit department of graphics. In the above image he is the tallest of the heavy-hitting Detroit developers when in real life, the man is puny 5 foot 6.

[Curbed Detroit]

What in the hell is an e zine? We are a blog.

[mikeg19]

I'm incredibly unimpressed with John Ferchill as a developer. Anything this guy says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. And it's nice so many people have all these development plans they can't talk about for new construction. Last time I checked there were 50 something abandoned structures in downtown alone. How about some of those get redeveloped first before we start constructing mega projects that can't afford to pay the interest on their loans. I'm not saying every project must be a rehab, and people with Dan Gilbert's might are gonna build new if they want. That's fine. I just find it disheartening that we have this glut of incredible, yet abandoned buildings in prime locations downtown, and people wanna build new.

[rb336]

Is the dome a retrofit? Why not design the building correctly to begin with? I have been in hotels with pools on high floors, but in general they also have a lot of walls to hide collumns too. A pool could be put up there, but why? If a pool is built here it should be indoors to maximize its attractiveness to tennants. You can still have a deack and large sliding windows to give it an open feeling. You can even do a garage door style window treatment.

It's my understanding of one of the pools is that it was designed to be domed in winter

[DetroitPlanner]

It's my understanding of one of the pools is that it was designed to be domed in winter

I checked out pics of it on the website during lunch. It appears to be quite a distance from building [[unless its a camera angle thing), therefore you would need to go outdoors in sub freezing weather to use the pool in the winter. Not a good design.

[wolverine]

Is the dome a retrofit? Why not design the building correctly to begin with? I have been in hotels with pools on high floors, but in general they also have a lot of walls to hide collumns too. A pool could be put up there, but why? If a pool is built here it should be indoors to maximize its attractiveness to tennants. You can still have a deack and large sliding windows to give it an open feeling. You can even do a garage door style window treatment.

Because you'd need an entirely different and seperate HVAC system for an indoor pool space which ties back to your earlier concern with cost. Tenants value a full outdoor space with a sun deck included.

[Bham1982]

In the Upper Midwest, we're lucky if we get three months of weather conducive to using an outdoor pool. We're also the cloudiest region, limiting the sun deck.

I doubt tenants value such an amenity all that much, given its limited utility. Not worthless, but probably not worth the bother.

Then there's the leakage problems. You don't want to be living directly below the pool.

[wolverine]

For another good example there's an apartment building going up here in Chicago with an elevated and cantilevered pool deck over public ROW. Part of the building will cantilever above I-94 as well.

[Flintoid]

Nothing wrong with this. Sounds awesome!

[wolverine]

In the Upper Midwest, we're lucky if we get three months of weather conducive to using an outdoor pool. We're also the cloudiest region, limiting the sun deck.

I doubt tenants value such an amenity all that much, given its limited utility. Not worthless, but probably not worth the bother.

Then there's the leakage problems. You don't want to be living directly below the pool.

Leakage alomost never happens. Vessels are monolithic. Any damage would be caused deliberately. Your plumbing would be chased and your risk of leaks at plumbing connections is almost the same as any other plumbing fixture you'd find a in a building or even a roof drain.

I'm not going to pull the project experience card today but why do you guys think this is uncommon or cost prohibitive? It's definitely added cost but, it's not as exaggerated as you claim. Elevated pool decks are being built in almost every 100+ unit building proposed or under construction in Chicago right now. And these aren't luxury apartments.

Are you saying Detroit lacks market interest with these types of building amenities or design and engineering expertise?

[DetroitPlanner]

I'm not going to pull the project experience card today but why do you guys think this is uncommon or cost prohibitive? It's definitely added cost but, it's not as exaggerated as you claim. Elevated pool decks are being built in almost every 100+ unit building proposed or under construction in Chicago right now. And these aren't luxury apartments.

Are you saying Detroit lacks market interest with these types of building amenities or design and engineering expertise?

The posted article says you need to get rents inline with costs before any major development is going to occur. Spending money on a rarely used amenity and building it so that it can most likely be used 3 months out of the year unless you retrofit it is not a prudent when you need to make rents meet expenses. Either design it right or don't build it.

A previous poster mentioned that there are already dozens of empty buildings downtown. Why make it harder to develop them by using the relatively small market share on newer buildings?

[wolverine]

The posted article says you need to get rents inline with costs before any major development is going to occur. Spending money on a rarely used amenity and building it so that it can most likely be used 3 months out of the year unless you retrofit it is not a prudent when you need to make rents meet expenses. Either design it right or don't build it.

A previous poster mentioned that there are already dozens of empty buildings downtown. Why make it harder to develop them by using the relatively small market share on newer buildings?

If they can afford the garage they can also afford to build and maintain the pool.

The second part of your argument has nothing to do with your original post where you exaggerated the cost and design considerations for an elevated pool. You keep saying "design it right" but consistently offer a more expensive and less common alternative to current projects.

You also contradict by saying an ammentity heavy building would have a competitive advantage over potential conversions of vintage buildings. With a competitive advantage they could charge those higher rents.

[southen]

at this point downtown development of anything, be it a historic building or something new, is going to lead to more development and consideration for other pieces of land and buildings. downtown needs more residential units, having something more modern will appeal to a different crowd. diversification is never a bad thing especially at that site where you will see a lot of spin off and interest in the surrounding buildings.

i love the idea for the pool, i still hate the way the rest of the place looks.

[tarynd85]

It doesn't compare to that, but our building [[detroit city apartments)has a pool on the parking garage roof. It's small, but we love it in the summer

[belleislerunner]

I lived in this apartment complex for two years when I was in DC around 2005-2007. No reason why an apartment complex like this can't be built in Detroit. Rooftop pool/hot tub. It was right across from Georgwtown law - so plenty of younger folks.

I think if a developer were to build a property like this right across from the Ellington [[SE corner of Woodward/Mack) - you would have a Starbucks across the street, a Whole Foods across the street, walking distance to Wayne Law or DMC - it should have no problem filling up with law students, medical students or young professionals. People who generally rent in Royal Oak/Ferndale because there's no good apartments in the midtown area with said amenities. There are plenty of apartments in midtown/downtown but very few that I'd classify as nice or with a ton of amenities.

http://masscourt.riverstoneres.com/A...hotos/property[id]/12983/

And if Midtown doesn't want a huge highrise [[i.e. 15 stories) they could borrow the trends of CT and other "urban" apartments that would blend in with the surroundings while full of amenities.
http://www.avaloncommunities.com/con...walk/pictures/

[rb336]

I checked out pics of it on the website during lunch. It appears to be quite a distance from building [[unless its a camera angle thing), therefore you would need to go outdoors in sub freezing weather to use the pool in the winter. Not a good design.

this was not the same building