Trayvon Martin: Amazed no one has posted this....

**Meddle** · April-16-12, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by ejames01

I don't understand why some folks are so accepting of what this man claimed happens. Is it so hard to believe that he would llie to avoid going to prison?

It's not so much a matter of accepting his account. It's that there is nothing concrete to refute his account. Would he lie? Sure he would. Wouldn't you? I said that early on. Only two people know exactly what happened and when and in what order. One will never be able to tell us anything. The other has every reason in the world to lie.

But the US Justice system requires PROOF. "It doesn't make sense to me" is not grounds for arrest or conviction.

It doesn't even matter if there is no proof to back GZ's story. What matters is if there is proof to the contrary. You can't convict someone because you don't believe their story.

**ejames01** · April-16-12, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

So, let me get this right. The only right answer, the only 'justice' is for GZ to spend the rest of his life in prison, no matter what really happened?

No trial, no evidence, just lock him up and weld the door shut?

Is that what some of you would like to see?

No, he should be charged with murder and be able to defend himself in court.

Wait....Isn't this what is happening?

**gazhekwe** · April-16-12, 04:28 PM

Yes, please. Let us hear the facts and let them be sorted out in a court of law. Meantime please let us also get some clarification of the Stand Your Ground law.

**Meddle** · April-16-12, 04:47 PM

So, it's OK with some of you to arrest people and hold them in jail for trial without any real, solid evidence?

I want to make sure what country we're talking about. America, where you're innocent until proven guilty, or some other country where you're guilty until proven innocent.

**gazhekwe** · April-16-12, 04:54 PM

It is not okay to let someone who shot someone under unclear circumstances go without charge and trial.

As upset as you seem that George Zimmerman was arrested, think how upsetting it was for people who believe the facts were not properly discovered and evaluated that he was not arrested.

**Meddle** · April-16-12, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

As upset as you seem that George Zimmerman was arrested,

That's not really it. It sets a precedent for nearly anyone to be arrested and tried with little or no evidence. That's just not how the US Justice system is supposed to work.

**Pam** · April-16-12, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

That's not really it. It sets a precedent for nearly anyone to be arrested and tried with little or no evidence. That's just not how the US Justice system is supposed to work.

He admitted he killed Trayvon. He needs to prove his self defense claim in court.

**gazhekwe** · April-16-12, 06:26 PM

Agree, Pam. The law does not automatically mean there is no prosecution anytime there is a shooter and a body. The big evidence in this case is the body, the gun and GZ's admission that he shot Trayvon. There has to be evidence either way for a self defense assertion. GZ has no evidence to support his claim. Trayvon cannot tell his side of the story. Witness testimony and other data must be examined and tested. The usual place that happens when there is a question is in a court of law, which, in criminal cases, requires the suspect to be charged and prosecuted. Why Meddle is straining so at this, I cannot imagine. Well, yes, I can.

**Meddle** · April-16-12, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

He admitted he killed Trayvon. He needs to prove his self defense claim in court.

Not under the law as it's written. The State needs to prove it WASN'T self-defense. The State is making an accusation. They need to be able to prove it. GZ doesn't have to prove anything.

**gazhekwe** · April-16-12, 07:24 PM

He does, Meddle. The law needs clarification if the result is I can shoot you, you are dead, and I claim self defense and am let go without question.

The unintended consequences of this sloppy interpretation are staggeringly obvious.

**rb336** · April-16-12, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

So, it's OK with some of you to arrest people and hold them in jail for trial without any real, solid evidence?

are you totally off your nut or just in extremist denial? There's a TON of evidence here

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-17-12, 12:03 AM

I can't believe how strongly people are arguing with a troll. A troll that is saying things just to provoke an argument. I doubt the troll even remotely believes the garbation she is spewing.

**Pam** · April-17-12, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

I can't believe how strongly people are arguing with a troll. A troll that is saying things just to provoke an argument. I doubt the troll even remotely believes the garbation she is spewing.

I'm not so sure he's a troll. There are actually people out there trying to make Zimmerman into some kind of a hero or NRA poster boy.

**ejames01** · April-17-12, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

I'm not so sure he's a troll. There are actually people out there trying to make Zimmerman into some kind of a hero or NRA poster boy.

Hero?

A hero would not confront a teenager while packing a concealed pistol.

A hero would not shoot someone just because they get their arse kicked

**Pam** · April-17-12, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by ejames01

Hero?

A hero would not confront a teenager while packing a concealed pistol.

A hero would not shoot someone just because they get their arse kicked

I didn't say I believed it but apparently he has supporters who don't seem to think he did anything wrong. [[Can't find any links at the moment but I've read about it.)

**gazhekwe** · April-17-12, 08:46 AM

If the undercover officer in 2005 had been of the Zimmerman stamp, we would not be having this discussion today, as George would be pushing up daisies.

**rb336** · April-17-12, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

I didn't say I believed it but apparently he has supporters who don't seem to think he did anything wrong. [[Can't find any links at the moment but I've read about it.)

It's clear from some of the posts that some HERE seem to think he's a hero. It's also clear from some right-wing blogs and broadcasters that they are trying to paint zimmerman in that light

**oladub** · April-17-12, 09:20 AM

There are similarities between the Trayvon/Zimmerman case and the Bernard Goetz case in NYC in which Goetz also played the role of a vigilante wounding four blacks. Goetz also pleaded self defense. He was found not guilty but put in jail for six months for gun and reckless endangerment charges. Civil trials later bankrupted him. Goetz now installs squirrel houses. His shooting victims survived and went on to rape and rob other people. My guess is that Zimmerman may similarly be found guilty on lesser charges by claiming self defense and receive some time and will be forced into bankruptcy by civil claims.

suggested reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

**Detroit Stylin** · April-17-12, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by oladub

There are similarities between the Trayvon/Zimmerman case and the Bernard Goetz case in NYC in which Goetz also played the role of a vigilante wounding four blacks. Goetz also pleaded self defense. He was found not guilty but put in jail for six months for gun and reckless endangerment charges. Civil trials later bankrupted him. Goetz now installs squirrel houses. His shooting victims survived and went on to rape and rob other people. My guess is that Zimmerman may similarly be found guilty on lesser charges by claiming self defense and receive some time and will be forced into bankruptcy by civil claims.

suggested reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Yep except in THIS regard Trayvon had ZERO in his background for criminal activity and we will never know if he would EVER have had one. In fact all we know is that he was making plans for college while the one people are trying to make out to be a hero had an EXTENSIVE criminal record.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-17-12, 12:44 PM

our urban youths are victims of racist profiling or products of their failed, sh*tbag, ignorant, pathetic, welfare dependent excuses for parents, but like Mrs. Corey, we speak only the truth.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/1...#storylink=cpy

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/15/2750666/miami-dade-firefighter-under-investigation.html#storylink=misearch

**oladub** · April-17-12, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Yep except in THIS regard Trayvon had ZERO in his background for criminal activity and we will never know if he would EVER have had one. In fact all we know is that he was making plans for college while the one people are trying to make out to be a hero had an EXTENSIVE criminal record.

Agreed. We don't know if Trayvon would have ever committed a crime and have no particular reason to believe he would have. The same could have been said for Goetz'z victims when he shot them. There was nothing in the Wikipedia article suggesting that any of them had previously committed crimes.

We only know that, "George Zimmerman has been accused of domestic violence, tussling with a police officer and for over-speeding. In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer." Both these felonies are considered third-degree. Due to his desperate attempts, the charges were reduced to "resisting officer without violence" and then the only remaining charge was also completely waived off when he entered an alcohol education program."

We also know that Trayvon was currently suspended from school for the hint of marijuana or graffiti; his third indiscretion along those lines. That doesn't, of course, qualify as criminal activity or suggest a history of violence on his part. My point was that the fate of Zimmerman might be similar to that of Goetz even though Goetz had more witnesses and didn't claim to be attacked.

**ejames01** · April-17-12, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

There are similarities between the Trayvon/Zimmerman case and the Bernard Goetz case in NYC in which Goetz also played the role of a vigilante wounding four blacks. Goetz also pleaded self defense. He was found not guilty but put in jail for six months for gun and reckless endangerment charges. Civil trials later bankrupted him. Goetz now installs squirrel houses. His shooting victims survived and went on to rape and rob other people. My guess is that Zimmerman may similarly be found guilty on lesser charges by claiming self defense and receive some time and will be forced into bankruptcy by civil claims.

suggested reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

I don't think Zimmerman could be considered a vigilante in this case. He confronted the kid and got in a scuffle and he shot Trayvon after losing the upper hand.

If Trayvon had of backed down, the gun probably would not have came out.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-17-12, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

Agreed. We don't know if Trayvon would have ever committed a crime and have no particular reason to believe he would have. The same could have been said for Goetz'z victims when he shot them. There was nothing in the Wikipedia article suggesting that any of them had previously committed crimes.

We only know that, "George Zimmerman has been accused of domestic violence, tussling with a police officer and for over-speeding. In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer." Both these felonies are considered third-degree. Due to his desperate attempts, the charges were reduced to "resisting officer without violence" and then the only remaining charge was also completely waived off when he entered an alcohol education program."

We also know that Trayvon was currently suspended from school for the hint of marijuana or graffiti; his third indiscretion along those lines. That doesn't, of course, qualify as criminal activity or suggest a history of violence on his part. My point was that the fate of Zimmerman might be similar to that of Goetz even though Goetz had more witnesses and didn't claim to be attacked.

Actually in the previous incident it was implied that they have committed crimes....

**rb336** · April-17-12, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by ejames01

I don't think Zimmerman could be considered a vigilante in this case. He confronted the kid and got in a scuffle and he shot Trayvon after losing the upper hand.

If Trayvon had of backed down, the gun probably would not have came out.

quite the contrary. his behavior as attested by his phone call and subsequent actions are those of a vigilante plain and simple. He's told by police that they don't want him to do ANYTHING else, but he still decided to take action by continuing to stalk Trayvon. THAT is the very definition of vigilante

**ejames01** · April-17-12, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

quite the contrary. his behavior as attested by his phone call and subsequent actions are those of a vigilante plain and simple. He's told by police that they don't want him to do ANYTHING else, but he still decided to take action by continuing to stalk Trayvon. THAT is the very definition of vigilante

That is a good point. Whether he wanted to kill someone is irrelevant. Zimmerman did want to take the law into his own hands.