Iran Shows It Has What It Takes

[ccbatson]

I believe that they probably did happen to be Christian values, but that this is/was not the point. It goes back to what I described earlier, religion was foundational leading to the evolution that became our constitution/the rise of individual liberty.

Please notice that it is the current and apparent fall of this concept under Obama that has me very concerned.

[Detroitej72]

The part about a Creator was in reference to the Founding Father's Deist beliefs, nothing more. They were not trying to create a purely Christian nation.

[Lorax]

I believe that they probably did happen to be Christian values, but that this is/was not the point. It goes back to what I described earlier, religion was foundational leading to the evolution that became our constitution/the rise of individual liberty.

Please notice that it is the current and apparent fall of this concept under Obama that has me very concerned.

And you were doing so well!

Our democratic ideals were courtesy of the very pagan, ancient Greeks and Romans.

Many of the founding fathers were certainly Christian, no one denies that, they were at least smarter and more progressive than the backward sliding group of fundamentalists we have now. They realized the freedom to practice all religions in this country would be threatened unless religion was kept out of the public discourse.

That's why we were founded as a secular nation with religious freedoms, freedom of speech and thought. Why is this so difficult for Christians of today to understand?

Do any of them really think we're going backward at this point and going to establish a Chritian theocracy in the US?

Grow up, people.

Perhaps if they feel that way, they should found their own nation elsewhere, perhaps they could adopt the ideals of the Taliban, which would be more in keeping with the fascist right wing talk I've been hearing lately.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Separation of church and state is indemic in our Constitution, written about at length by Jefferson and Madison,"

Oh really? Where? Could you please post a credible source for this "at length" address on the subject. It's my understanding the "separation" was mentioned [[one sentence) in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. No other place, other than to say Government would not meddle with the churches. It does not matter really, it changes nothing.

Thomas Jefferson, although a brilliant statesman regarding the organization of government , unfortunately was a proponent of slavery, and essentially a whackjob. The guy wrote his own Bible. My guess he suffered OCD or some other psychosis. Possibly due to his father dying at a young age. The Bible wasn't good enough for him, he had to write his own. His compulsion to do this clearly points to a deranged individual. No one could write the Bible as good as he?

Incidentally, he was in Paris when the Constitution was penned. Also, he wasn't elected until the third presidency, the people did not want him because of his views on religion, He ran to a tie and most of his votes came from the south [[ironically). House of representatives had to vote 29 times before he was granted the Presidency.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Many of the founding fathers were certainly Christian, no one denies that, they were at least smarter and more progressive than the backward sliding group of fundamentalists we have now."

LOL

[Gistok]

Quote: "Separation of church and state is indemic in our Constitution, written about at length by Jefferson and Madison,"

Oh really? Where? Could you please post a credible source for this "at length" address on the subject. It's my understanding the "separation" was mentioned [[one sentence) in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. No other place, other than to say Government would not meddle with the churches. It does not matter really, it changes nothing.

Thomas Jefferson, although a brilliant statesman regarding the organization of government , unfortunately was a proponent of slavery, and essentially a whackjob. The guy wrote his own Bible. My guess he suffered OCD or some other psychosis. Possibly due to his father dying at a young age. The Bible wasn't good enough for him, he had to write his own. His compulsion to do this clearly points to a deranged individual. No one could write the Bible as good as he?

Incidentally, he was in Paris when the Constitution was penned. Also, he wasn't elected until the third presidency, the people did not want him because of his views on religion, He ran to a tie and most of his votes came from the south [[ironically). House of representatives had to vote 29 times before he was granted the Presidency.

Geeze Sstashmoo... you really have some F'ed up ways of looking at things... so he was only the 3rd president... BFD? Washington was the most popular man in the nation at the time... so being 1st was never a possibility for Jefferson.

Also, last I checked Virginia still considers itself a southern state... it was even part of the confederacy.

And so he wrote his own bible? So what? He's not the first nor the last to do so.

He was also an architect and an inventor.... he designed his own house, Monticello as well as the University of Virginia [[Charlottesville), which he founded.

He also had the foresight to buy the Louisiana Purchase, and got the Lewis & Clark expedition started.

So he had slaves... name me one 18th century southern millionaire that didn't?

Was he perfect, hell no! He even fathered children from one of his slaves. [[But his wife died long before that, and he never remarried.)

But if anyone alive today contributed even 5% of what Jefferson did for his country... they would be considered a national icon today.... all political correctness aside...

And using your logic... Madison the primary author of the Constitution must have been worse than Jefferson... since he was only our 4th president.

[gibran]

I believe that they probably did happen to be Christian values, but that this is/was not the point. It goes back to what I described earlier, religion was foundational leading to the evolution that became our constitution/the rise of individual liberty.

Please notice that it is the current and apparent fall of this concept under Obama that has me very concerned.

where has Obama attacked the underlying religious values of this country? Where has he attacked our liberties...if you are referring to helping us escape from the yoke of economic slavery that our bankers and wall street has placed on the poor ...well maybe he has attacked those liberties.

[oladub]

where has Obama attacked the underlying religious values of this country? Where has he attacked our liberties...if you are referring to helping us escape from the yoke of economic slavery that our bankers and wall street has placed on the poor ...well maybe he has attacked those liberties.

Obama hasn't attacked underlying religious values. He is a proponant of some social libertarian things that religious people don't like though such as gay marriage and abortions but those are things that should be outside of federal jusisdiction anyway. He has attacked our liberties much along the lines of his predessesor Bush. He voted for Patriot Act II and expanding Bush's wiretapping for instance. As you point out, he has also voted for Wall Street interests. His plethora of proposed new middle class taxes such as cap and trade, a UN tax, and internet use taxes will also deprive us of the freedom to spend as we choose .

[rb336]

BTW, I think I'm confusing the Nativity scene. It was just a statue of Blessed Mother in Sterling Heights that caused the uproar, I was corrected by my better half.

that was the one where the whole neighborhood was disrupted by that nutjob and his fake "mary's head bowed when I went to the hospital" con. tens of thousands of people clogged the neighborhood

[Danny]

The People of Iran wants NEW LEADERSHIP and reformers. Even they have to start a revolution. FREE IRAN from the supeme leader who is acting a "Islamic Pope". For Neda Soltani's sake, FREE IRAN!

[mjs]

His plethora of proposed new middle class taxes such as cap and trade, a UN tax, and internet use taxes will also deprive us of the freedom to spend as we choose .

Wow. I never heard of this before. Would you agree the first link is an accurate, unbiased description of the bill that was proposed by Senator Obama in 2008? I'm impressed with the website, it even links to the bill itself. Are you talking about that or the second link and do you consider that a neutral description?

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas...r-senate-vote/
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/u.n.-t...as-global-irs/

[ccbatson]

Some rational sentiment in favor of Individual liberty is starting to trickle out on the left here....about time.

[rb336]

the left has always been about individual liberty. it is YOU and your ilk, supporting the decimation of the bill of rights via the patriot act, YOU who don't even understand what the term means, YOU that wishes to impose corporate feudalism on society under the guise of protecting "property rights"

[Detroitej72]

that was the one where the whole neighborhood was disrupted by that nutjob and his fake "mary's head bowed when I went to the hospital" con. tens of thousands of people clogged the neighborhood

No, that was something else.

[ccbatson]

Rb....socialism is the antithesis of individual economic liberty [[the most important kind)...liberal socialist tendencies, particularly under Obama make it impossible for the left to have legitimate and genuine claim to be loyal to individual liberty.

How could you not know this Rb? Even I am surprised at this degree of ignorance.

[oladub]

Wow. I never heard of this before. Would you agree the first link is an accurate, unbiased description of the bill that was proposed by Senator Obama in 2008? I'm impressed with the website, it even links to the bill itself. Are you talking about that or the second link and do you consider that a neutral description?

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas...r-senate-vote/
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/u.n.-t...as-global-irs/

mjs, I have read similar articles but usually in more libertarian publications. They often go a bit further with intrigues about banking cartels etc.. Experience shows that such a proposed law is often modified for better or worse before becoming law. The second reading cites a possible funding source, "In terms of new funding sources, the document calls for "innovative sources of financing such as emission rights trading and financial transactions taxes..." When I posted the other thread about cap and trade taxes, I was thinking that much of the money raised would be spent on alternative energy but maybe it has already been spoken for. I don't know but when Bush's Wall Street bailout is added together with Porkulus, the earmark bill, cap and trade, and the UN spending, it totals about $3.632T. and Warren Buffet says another bailout is probably necessary. [[ka-ching, ka-ching...) It's difficult to believe that our bipartisan leaders do not see where this is taking us so the question becomes "Why?" and I have no answer.

I am plugging my way through a long and frankly boring article now that does shed a lot of light on how our federal government works including the interplay between parties and corporations. I say boring because the footnotes meticulously are written into the article. It is sort of the Washington Odessey of one highly placed broker/civil servant/business woman who concludes that we better be prioritizing our local communities.
Read the Case Study:
Dillon Read and the Aristocracy of Stock Profits

[ccbatson]

Corporate socialism is no better [[and possibly worse) than direct governmental socialism.

[ccbatson]

Now that is a good find showing incompetence and stupidity..well done Barnes.

[barnesfoto]

A universal conservocrite trait: Poor graphic design.

2004: American Conservocrites show off their lack of Photoshop skills in pro-Bush video

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/27/22442/878


2008: Iranian Conservocrites show off their lack of Photoshop skills in pro-Ahmadinnerjacket photo

http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/06/iran...owd-photo.html

[rb336]

Rb....socialism is the antithesis of individual economic liberty [[the most important kind)...liberal socialist tendencies, particularly under Obama make it impossible for the left to have legitimate and genuine claim to be loyal to individual liberty.

How could you not know this Rb? Even I am surprised at this degree of ignorance.

yeah, those poor socialists in Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, etc have no economic liberty. by having so much taken care of by the "socialist tendencies" of their governments, they are free to spend a far greater portion of their income on quality of life issues. oh, and because of the superior outcomes of their socialist medical systems and the greater amount of time off their governments require, they have more quantity of life too

QED

[ccbatson]

Yes, sadly for them, they are all in decline. Fortunately for them, there is growing support for reversing the moves towards socialism in Europe...witness Ireland.

[gibran]

I just started a book on genocide/evil written by OS Guinness and it was stated that more people died in the last century by secularists than in all the wars for religion in the past ...

Mao in China [[20 million) and China Famine at the hands of Japanese
Young Turks [[Armenians)
Stalin [[20 + million) and the Gulags
Hitler [[6 million Jews and other's including Homosexuals, Catholics, J. Witness, people with disabilities)
Pot Pal [[millions in the killing fields)
Africa...Hutu's, and other secular conflicts...
South American fascism etc...

Instead of evil on the decline globally we are seeing a increase across the board of it when we substitute outrage for it's manifestations with rationalization ...witness the justification of torture instead of solving the root causes..which leads us back to right wing fundamentalism and fanaticism in any level...whether Islamic, Jewish or Christian...i would debate that those who perpetuate evil while hiding behind a religious ideal is not really practicing religion...

but make no mistake..radical secularism is no different than radical anything ...just a different deity

[Sstashmoo]

Gibran wrote: "I just started a book on genocide/evil written by OS Guinness and it was stated that more people died in the last century by secularists than in all the wars for religion in the past ...""

Of course. And these folks think they want to live in a world without faith in God. They are benefactors of a society built by God fearing peoples and are too spoiled to realize it. It's one of these situations where they need to have it their way for a day to understand.

[rb336]

the russian and german genocides were NOT driven by their religiosity [[Nazis were vehemently NOT secular, and were endorsed by both the catholics and by protestant groups alike) nor their irreligiosity. it was ethnic cleansing.

china, cambodia, etc, were also NOT anti-religiously motivated. He probably includes deaths from the famine of 1951 in his totals, and the WWII famine at the hands of the japanese -- who were fighting for whom? OH YEAH! the Emperor, who was then worshipped AS A GOD!

Guiness seems to discount the millions wiped out by the various Inquisitions, crusades, etc. One "heresy" led to the elimination of half the population of France, and missionaries didn't exactly "act nice" during the quest to convert native Americans. and those were explicitly based on religion.

then we can answer the qustions about the catholic v protestant 100 years war, and other euro wars of conquest, including the english wars of succession

PS - Guiness' main claim to fame is as an xtian apologist

[Sstashmoo]

Maybe it was their lack of faith and not simply their "faith". Does one really expect anyone to believe that the alleged "ethnic cleansings" [[Which I think are total bullshit by the way) were inspired by biblical teachings?