Future of Lakeside Mall

[bartock]

Show me where I said anything about Hall Road competing directly with Detroit? I doubt any of the stores along Hall Rd have ever had a location in Detroit, especially if the company is less than 30 years old. What I am saying is that Hall Rd was not driven by market demand... Or at least market demand for more retail in Metropolitan Detroit. Every new business along Hall Rd is coming at the expensive of some inner ring suburb that was the Hall Rd of the 1980s or 1990s.

We can do the Hudon's-Marshall Fields-Macy's thing, and pretty much all of the type of retail that was once in Detroit, even if the names change. But, yes, as it relates specifically to Hall Rd, you are probably talking more about shifting from the inner-rings as opposed to city proper. My comment was more in response to some of the now-missing venom that was spewed earlier in the thread. For what it is worth, I shouldn't have lumped you in.

Anyway, I guess it would depend on how you define market demand for more retail. As the market changes, so does the demand, so whether the demand merely shifted from one location to another [[true), or whether overall growth of the region led to the demand [[not true), it was demand nonetheless.

[Lowell]

You might also add...
Bloomfield Park [[died in the womb 2009)

And here's a list of some other area malls and their lifespans according to poobert's math:

Northland: 1954-2004 [[would be dead today)
Eastland: 1957-2007 [[would be dead today)
Wonderland: 1959-2009 [[already died, though in 2005)
Summit Place: 1962-2012 [[would be dead this year)
Macomb: 1964-2014 [[two years left)
Universal: 1964-2014 [[two years left)
Livonia: 1964-2014 [[already died, though in 2009)
Westland: 1965-2015 [[three years left)
Tel-Twelve: 1968-2018 [[already died)
Oakland: 1968-2018 [[six years left)
Somerset Collection: South 1969-2019; north 1996-2046 [[South has seven years left; north has 34 years left)
Southland: 1970-2020 [[eight years left)
Briarwood: 1973-2023 [[11 years left)
Fairlane: 1976-2026 [[14 years left)
Twelve Oaks: 1977-2027 [[15 years left)
Horizon Outlet Center, Monroe: 1987-2037 [[25 years left)
Laurel Park Place: 1989-2039 [[27 years left)
Birchwood: 1990-2040 [[28 years left)
Kensington Valley Factory Shops: 1996-2046 [[34 years left)
Great Lakes Crossing: 1998-2048 [[36 years left)

What would you think?

[Bham1982]

In other words--were PEOPLE clamoring to live in the Hall Road area, or were the DEVELOPERS clamoring to pave over the orchards?

It was definitely the people that came first, and the developers came in and filled the retail shortage.

Areas like Shelby and Macomb have been heavily developed for decades now. The GM Tech Center's massive postwar expansion fueled growth up Van Dyke past Utica.

Prior to Lakeside, there was basically no shopping for these folks. And, until Hall Road was expanded, all these folks had to travel to Oakland or South Macomb to get anything beyond Kmart/Meijer [[the old school, smaller ones).

Hall Road, while hideous, is a great location in real estate terms, and has been fabulously successful. Practically every chain in existence has a location.

[iheartthed]

Places where people eat and shop change, so that isn't really a fair point. But, I think you might find a place or two along that corridor that was originally in Detroit, or perhaps some earlier incarnation of which was in Detroit.

I guess it would depend on how you define market demand for more retail. As the market changes, so does the demand, so whether the demand merely shifted from one location to another [[true), or whether overall growth of the region led to the demand [[not true), it was demand nonetheless.

I don't have the time to research it in detail right now but I'm very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail. I know for sure that this wasn't originally the case since Northland and the other -land malls were all built on farm land.

[ghettopalmetto]

Where people wish to live and where developers wish to develop usually go hand in hand. As to the infrastructure part, it would be disingenuous not to admit that there are definitely chicken/egg elements, but I would suggest that is fairly universal, and could just as easily be applied to anything. To suggest that there wasn't demand would be in error.

Which naturally leads to two questions:

1. When was the last time a developer asked you what you wanted? [[I think it's funny how suburbanites across America "want" to shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, and have all their buildings look the same. It must be because Applebee's is just so gosh darn delicious!).

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

Are you attributing this phenomenon soley to geographic and cultural differences?

I know that you believe what you think is fact, but the empirical evidence shows otherwise. None of that tacky plastic crap on Hall Road would have been constructed without enormous inflows of infrastructure cash from state and local governments.

But hey, "market demand" is an easier sell because you can explain everything by attributing it to some mystical force that runs the universe, and don't have to bother with actual investigation, facts, or nuance.

[Detroitnerd]

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the foot is formed for the accelerator, therefore we drive cars."

--Dr. Pangloss

[Bham1982]

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

This point is generally untrue. There are a few exceptions, like NYC, or San Francisco, but usually it's cities with a very unique built environments and highly concentrated and specialized set of employment bases.

Generally speaking, U.S. wealth is concentrated in suburbs. Not necessarily on the periphery, but definitely in the suburbs.

Hall Rd., BTW, never struck me as a particularly wealthy area. Isn't it basically middle-middle class, like most of Macomb? Prices are certainly much cheaper compared to equivalent homes across the Oakland County line.

[ghettopalmetto]

This point is generally untrue. There are a few exceptions, like NYC, or San Francisco, but usually it's cities with a very unique built environments and highly concentrated and specialized set of employment bases.

Generally speaking, U.S. wealth is concentrated in suburbs. Not necessarily on the periphery, but definitely in the suburbs.

Hall Rd., BTW, never struck me as a particularly wealthy area. Isn't it basically middle-middle class, like most of Macomb? Prices are certainly much cheaper compared to equivalent homes across the Oakland County line.

Good to see you're keeping your rationalization skills sharp. Since you're going to be around for a while, those skills will be handy when Southeast Michigan implodes on itself due to the cost of maintaining so much infrastructure.

[Hermod]

I don't have the time to research it in detail right now but I'm very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail. I know for sure that this wasn't originally the case since Northland and the other -land malls were all built on farm land.

The Rochester and Utica areas had massive numbers of farms plowed under and turned into subdivisions in the 50s and 60s when Auburn Road/Hall Road/Wm P Rosso Hwy was just a two lane blacktop.

[kraig]

Which naturally leads to two questions:

1. When was the last time a developer asked you what you wanted? [[I think it's funny how suburbanites across America "want" to shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, and have all their buildings look the same. It must be because Applebee's is just so gosh darn delicious!).

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

Are you attributing this phenomenon soley to geographic and cultural differences?

I know that you believe what you think is fact, but the empirical evidence shows otherwise. None of that tacky plastic crap on Hall Road would have been constructed without enormous inflows of infrastructure cash from state and local governments.

But hey, "market demand" is an easier sell because you can explain everything by attributing it to some mystical force that runs the universe, and don't have to bother with actual investigation, facts, or nuance.

Hall Rd is very centrally located when you look at it. You're within a few minutes from Van Dyke, Gratiot, I-94, I-75, Lakeside Mall, Oakland Mall, Partridge Creek, M-53, Great Lakes Crossing, Selfridge Base, Dave & Busters, several mutliplex theaters, a large number of parks, a lot of restaurants, Cj Barrymores and several airports.

Add all of that to the fact that propoerty taxes in Macomb County are the lowest among the big three counties and the price of a comparable home in Macomb County is a lot lower than a comparable home in Oakland County. And you have a pretty good reason to live close by. Michigan is a good state to live in with a lot great areas. As a Detroiter, I'm a lot more interested in trying to build my City up than tear other cities down.

[bartock]

Which naturally leads to two questions:

1. When was the last time a developer asked you what you wanted? [[I think it's funny how suburbanites across America "want" to shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, and have all their buildings look the same. It must be because Applebee's is just so gosh darn delicious!).

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

Are you attributing this phenomenon soley to geographic and cultural differences?

I know that you believe what you think is fact, but the empirical evidence shows otherwise. None of that tacky plastic crap on Hall Road would have been constructed without enormous inflows of infrastructure cash from state and local governments.

But hey, "market demand" is an easier sell because you can explain everything by attributing it to some mystical force that runs the universe, and don't have to bother with actual investigation, facts, or nuance.

1. Naturally, you've read miles into things to fill your appetite for sarcasm, snarkiness, and basic disdain for everything here.

2. Your empirical evidence is always you, GP, as is your investigation, facts, and nuance. Pardon me for not blindly leading myself to your wonderful world of urban utopia and hatred of all else.

[bartock]

Hall Rd is very centrally located when you look at it. You're within a few minutes from Van Dyke, Gratiot, I-94, I-75, Lakeside Mall, Oakland Mall, Partridge Creek, M-53, Great Lakes Crossing, Selfridge Base, Dave & Busters, several mutliplex theaters, a large number of parks, a lot of restaurants, Cj Barrymores and several airports.

Add all of that to the fact that propoerty taxes in Macomb County are the lowest among the big three counties and the price of a comparable home in Macomb County is a lot lower than a comparable home in Oakland County. And you have a pretty good reason to live close by. Michigan is a good state to live in with a lot great areas. As a Detroiter, I'm a lot more interested in trying to build my City up than tear other cities down.

Amen, Kraig.

[Mikeg]

I don't have the time to research it in detail right now but I'm very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail. I know for sure that this wasn't originally the case since Northland and the other -land malls were all built on farm land.

In 1950 there were more than 1,000,000 people living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. Are you trying to make us believe they were all living in farmhouses and sending their children to one-room schoolhouses?

25 years later, where did their children live when they got married? Unlike previous generations, they didn't want to live in a multi-generational household with mom, dad and grandma. Therefore they looked outside their parents' neighborhood for a place of their own to live in and developers accommodated the demand they created by building nearby apartments, homes and businesses, including retail. Since then, even as the total population growth rate in southeast Michigan went to zero, average household size continued to decrease, which also contributed to new housing demand. Middle class flight from the city of Detroit has been only one of many reasons for post-war suburban growth.

[Det_ard]

In 1950 there were more than 1,000,000 people living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. Are you trying to make us believe they were all living in farmhouses and sending their children to one-room schoolhouses?

25 years later, where did their children live when they got married? Unlike previous generations, they didn't want to live in a multi-generational household with mom, dad and grandma. Therefore they looked outside their parents' neighborhood for a place of their own to live in and developers accommodated the demand they created by building nearby apartments, homes and businesses, including retail. Since then, even as the total population growth rate in southeast Michigan went to zero, average household size continued to decrease, which also contributed to new housing demand. Middle class flight from the city of Detroit has been only one of many reasons for post-war suburban growth.

Absolutely right, and adding to the suburban growth has been consumer demand for larger homes on larger lots, a trend that only hit a recent speed bump due to the economy.

The average new house in 1950 was 983 sqft, in 2007 it was 2521 sqft. Many had 9' ceilings and 3 car garages. They weren't going to be building these larger houses on the traditional 35' x 100' city lot. The suburbs, with open land, were where people and developers were looking to build a home.

Add in lower household size and lack of attractiveness of living in the city for most people and you get the growth pattern we see now.

[Bham1982]

Add in lower household size and lack of attractiveness of living in the city for most people and you get the growth pattern we see now.

This is it, in a nutshell.

There has been plenty of historical demand for new housing, even in the face of population stagnation, because A. Household sizes have declined, meaning there are more households, and B. The existing housing typologies and locations are undesirable.

Detroit didn't empty out because they built homes in Macomb Township. If you were to block new housing on the periphery, you would probably just send housing demand to the super-periphery, or out-of-state.

Your typical middle class couple would never consider Detroit or even a declining inner ring bungalow suburb.

[poobert]

Hall Rd is very centrally located when you look at it. You're within a few minutes from Van Dyke, Gratiot, I-94, I-75, Lakeside Mall, Oakland Mall, Partridge Creek, M-53, Great Lakes Crossing, Selfridge Base, Dave & Busters, several mutliplex theaters, a large number of parks, a lot of restaurants, Cj Barrymores and several airports.

Add all of that to the fact that propoerty taxes in Macomb County are the lowest among the big three counties and the price of a comparable home in Macomb County is a lot lower than a comparable home in Oakland County. And you have a pretty good reason to live close by. Michigan is a good state to live in with a lot great areas. As a Detroiter, I'm a lot more interested in trying to build my City up than tear other cities down.

That's kind of you to be so optimistic, but your description just makes it sounds so good that I feel I need to pick up the pace on my plans to move to Chicago.

Sorry, Snyder, I love Detroit but I'm not interested in sticking around much longer with the way things are going, and I sure as HELL don't want to live near anything like Hall Road, like virtually everyone I know and of my generation [[I don't give a shit that somebody here knows somebody who has a kid who moved to 19 mile). You old timers can grow even older here together and figure out how to pay for all this garbage yourselves, since you love it all so much, and wonder why your grandkids would leave such a paradise and scatter to four corners of the earth. Cheers!

[Bham1982]

That's kind of you to be so optimistic, but your description just makes it sounds so good that I feel I need to pick up the pace on my plans to move to Chicago.

Chicago's population loss is almost as bad as that of Detroit, and second worst in the nation.

Another sinking ship, and another emptying-out doughnut of a metro.

[kraig]

That's kind of you to be so optimistic, but your description just makes it sounds so good that I feel I need to pick up the pace on my plans to move to Chicago.

Sorry, Snyder, I love Detroit but I'm not interested in sticking around much longer with the way things are going, and I sure as HELL don't want to live near anything like Hall Road, like virtually everyone I know and of my generation [[I don't give a shit that somebody here knows somebody who has a kid who moved to 19 mile). You old timers can grow even older here together and figure out how to pay for all this garbage yourselves, since you love it all so much, and wonder why your grandkids would leave such a paradise and scatter to four corners of the earth. Cheers!

And if you take a good look at what you're saying. You'll realize that you're moving to Chicago for Chicago. Which is all the difference right now. No one is comparing Michigan with Illinois, Indiana or Ohio. They're comparing Detroit with Chicago, Indianapolis or Columbus. That's why a strong Detroit is necessary. Hence my desire to build it up. And not liking Hall Rd does nothing to accomplish that. Helping to keep my street clean, safe and well lit while supporting the businesses there will. Good luck to you in Chicago, it's a helluva city.

[ghettopalmetto]

Chicago's population loss is almost as bad as that of Detroit, and second worst in the nation.

Another sinking ship, and another emptying-out doughnut of a metro.

You've never travelled beyond the State of Michigan, have you? I know you have said that you've travelled, but it's almost like you refuse to acknowledge the world beyond your couch.

Keep fighting the good fight, and make sure you turn off the lights.

[Bham1982]

You've never travelled beyond the State of Michigan, have you? I know you have said that you've travelled, but it's almost like you refuse to acknowledge the world beyond your couch.

I've lived most of my life outside the state, and a few years of my life outside the nation. First generation American and non-native Detroiter.

If you find fault with my statements, then challenge them, but juvenile and irrelevent personal attacks are a waste of everyone's time.

[iheartthed]

In 1950 there were more than 1,000,000 people living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. Are you trying to make us believe they were all living in farmhouses and sending their children to one-room schoolhouses?

No, and that's not what I said.

[poobert]

I've lived most of my life outside the state, and a few years of my life outside the nation. First generation American and non-native Detroiter.

If you find fault with my statements, then challenge them, but juvenile and irrelevent personal attacks are a waste of everyone's time.

Chicago lost 6.9% of its population in the last decade. It grew in the 1990's. Detroit lost 25% of its population in the last decade!

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...ecline_do.html
This dude seems to grasp what at least half the people here adamantly refuse to admit even exists:
"The problem with the “things like this happen all the time in Chicago argument” is – while Detroit and Chicago may share many of the same negatives – Detroit lacks Chicago’s positive quality of life attributes. If Detroit could match Chicago for downtown vibrancy, economic and ethnic diversity, fully-formed mass transit, and walkability then we wouldn’t waste time comparing population losses."

At any given place in Metro Detroit, only one of those attributes may apply [[except little old Hamtramck being both diverse and walkable, heh) - and in most places in the Metro none of those factors apply at all - ahem, that'll be my Hall Road/Lakeside tie in to keep the thread on topic! Of course, according to many people here, none of that shit really matters. Glad there are people like kraig around...I'm also going to keep on keepin' up the good old neighborhood I live in until I leave the state. I just can't do this forever.

[Bham1982]

Chicago lost 6.9% of its population in the last decade. It grew in the 1990's. Detroit lost 25% of its population in the last decade!

Like I said, Chicago has the second worst population loss in the nation.

Chicago lost over 200,000 residents, or 7% its population, over the last decade.

And, if you look at the annualized data, the decline has accelerated in the last few years, so basically 1% population loss annualized.

Chicago has basically had non-stop population loss since about 1950. The 1990-2000 decennial data is useless for all cities, because Census changed the methodology [[they used assumed homeless and other nonrespondents, which had never been done before).

So, if you're asking if Chicago is doing relatively well compared to Detroit, the answer is obviously yes. Compared to anywhere else, pretty much no.

[antongast]

Hall Road, while hideous...

I think it's telling that almost every defense of Hall Road posted in this thread has included a disclaimer to this effect. Why do we as a society accept the fact that new retail districts are built in a way that almost nobody likes? If people up in Macomb County demand retail, fine, great, give it to them. But jeezus, build it in a way that doesn't give people migraines every time they go near it.

[Mikeg]

No, and that's not what I said.

Well, given the fact that most of those million+plus people lived in suburban residential areas within a 15 mile radius of Northland when it was built [[not to mention the other million living in Detroit within the same radius), how can you remain "very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail"?

The pattern of development in Detroit and it's outlying areas has always been that large scale retail development follows residential disposable income. This is true here and throughout the USA. Try getting a loan or investment capital to build a new shopping center without having a business plan that provides sufficient evidence that the surrounding area has enough disposable income to support the new retail.