Future of Lakeside Mall

[bartock]

None of it.

I suppose the specious argument is that the government built the infrastructure to allow this to happen in a never-ending froth and fervor driven desire to move everything out of Detroit. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out here, and as you and New York clearly know, Hall Road's expansion was built out of demand...people were already moving out there in droves. Yes, developers came to these "wanna-be Mayberry's" because that is where the people and money were and were moving to. So, to say that Hall Rd. was not dictated by market forces is fairly eyeball-gougingly confounding, unless one is to argue that NOTHING that exists today is dictated by market forces because EVERYTHING, it seems, is in one way or another, a direct or indirect product of a subsidy [[we can look at the current "demand" in Downtown Detroit, for example, if we are going to "go there.")

[ghettopalmetto]

I suppose the specious argument is that the government built the infrastructure to allow this to happen in a never-ending froth and fervor driven desire to move everything out of Detroit. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out here, and as you and New York clearly know, Hall Road's expansion was built out of demand...people were already moving out there in droves. Yes, developers came to these "wanna-be Mayberry's" because that is where the people and money were and were moving to. So, to say that Hall Rd. was not dictated by market forces is fairly eyeball-gougingly confounding, unless one is to argue that NOTHING that exists today is dictated by market forces because EVERYTHING, it seems, is in one way or another, a direct or indirect product of a subsidy [[we can look at the current "demand" in Downtown Detroit, for example, if we are going to "go there.")

So, how many people lived in the Hall Road area before the road was widened into a highway, public utilities constructed, and schools, fire, and police protection provided?

In other words--were PEOPLE clamoring to live in the Hall Road area, or were the DEVELOPERS clamoring to pave over the orchards? I ask this, because people generally don't "demand" to live in open fields with no roads, water, sewer, electricity, schools, or fire and police protection.

[bartock]

So, how many people lived in the Hall Road area before the road was widened into a highway, public utilities constructed, and schools, fire, and police protection provided?

In other words--were PEOPLE clamoring to live in the Hall Road area, or were the DEVELOPERS clamoring to pave over the orchards? I ask this, because people generally don't "demand" to live in open fields with no roads, water, sewer, electricity, schools, or fire and police protection.

Where people wish to live and where developers wish to develop usually go hand in hand. As to the infrastructure part, it would be disingenuous not to admit that there are definitely chicken/egg elements, but I would suggest that is fairly universal, and could just as easily be applied to anything. To suggest that there wasn't demand would be in error.

[ghettopalmetto]

Where people wish to live and where developers wish to develop usually go hand in hand. As to the infrastructure part, it would be disingenuous not to admit that there are definitely chicken/egg elements, but I would suggest that is fairly universal, and could just as easily be applied to anything. To suggest that there wasn't demand would be in error.

Which naturally leads to two questions:

1. When was the last time a developer asked you what you wanted? [[I think it's funny how suburbanites across America "want" to shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, and have all their buildings look the same. It must be because Applebee's is just so gosh darn delicious!).

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

Are you attributing this phenomenon soley to geographic and cultural differences?

I know that you believe what you think is fact, but the empirical evidence shows otherwise. None of that tacky plastic crap on Hall Road would have been constructed without enormous inflows of infrastructure cash from state and local governments.

But hey, "market demand" is an easier sell because you can explain everything by attributing it to some mystical force that runs the universe, and don't have to bother with actual investigation, facts, or nuance.

[Detroitnerd]

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the foot is formed for the accelerator, therefore we drive cars."

--Dr. Pangloss

[Bham1982]

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

This point is generally untrue. There are a few exceptions, like NYC, or San Francisco, but usually it's cities with a very unique built environments and highly concentrated and specialized set of employment bases.

Generally speaking, U.S. wealth is concentrated in suburbs. Not necessarily on the periphery, but definitely in the suburbs.

Hall Rd., BTW, never struck me as a particularly wealthy area. Isn't it basically middle-middle class, like most of Macomb? Prices are certainly much cheaper compared to equivalent homes across the Oakland County line.

[ghettopalmetto]

This point is generally untrue. There are a few exceptions, like NYC, or San Francisco, but usually it's cities with a very unique built environments and highly concentrated and specialized set of employment bases.

Generally speaking, U.S. wealth is concentrated in suburbs. Not necessarily on the periphery, but definitely in the suburbs.

Hall Rd., BTW, never struck me as a particularly wealthy area. Isn't it basically middle-middle class, like most of Macomb? Prices are certainly much cheaper compared to equivalent homes across the Oakland County line.

Good to see you're keeping your rationalization skills sharp. Since you're going to be around for a while, those skills will be handy when Southeast Michigan implodes on itself due to the cost of maintaining so much infrastructure.

[kraig]

Which naturally leads to two questions:

1. When was the last time a developer asked you what you wanted? [[I think it's funny how suburbanites across America "want" to shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, and have all their buildings look the same. It must be because Applebee's is just so gosh darn delicious!).

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

Are you attributing this phenomenon soley to geographic and cultural differences?

I know that you believe what you think is fact, but the empirical evidence shows otherwise. None of that tacky plastic crap on Hall Road would have been constructed without enormous inflows of infrastructure cash from state and local governments.

But hey, "market demand" is an easier sell because you can explain everything by attributing it to some mystical force that runs the universe, and don't have to bother with actual investigation, facts, or nuance.

Hall Rd is very centrally located when you look at it. You're within a few minutes from Van Dyke, Gratiot, I-94, I-75, Lakeside Mall, Oakland Mall, Partridge Creek, M-53, Great Lakes Crossing, Selfridge Base, Dave & Busters, several mutliplex theaters, a large number of parks, a lot of restaurants, Cj Barrymores and several airports.

Add all of that to the fact that propoerty taxes in Macomb County are the lowest among the big three counties and the price of a comparable home in Macomb County is a lot lower than a comparable home in Oakland County. And you have a pretty good reason to live close by. Michigan is a good state to live in with a lot great areas. As a Detroiter, I'm a lot more interested in trying to build my City up than tear other cities down.

[bartock]

Hall Rd is very centrally located when you look at it. You're within a few minutes from Van Dyke, Gratiot, I-94, I-75, Lakeside Mall, Oakland Mall, Partridge Creek, M-53, Great Lakes Crossing, Selfridge Base, Dave & Busters, several mutliplex theaters, a large number of parks, a lot of restaurants, Cj Barrymores and several airports.

Add all of that to the fact that propoerty taxes in Macomb County are the lowest among the big three counties and the price of a comparable home in Macomb County is a lot lower than a comparable home in Oakland County. And you have a pretty good reason to live close by. Michigan is a good state to live in with a lot great areas. As a Detroiter, I'm a lot more interested in trying to build my City up than tear other cities down.

Amen, Kraig.

[poobert]

Hall Rd is very centrally located when you look at it. You're within a few minutes from Van Dyke, Gratiot, I-94, I-75, Lakeside Mall, Oakland Mall, Partridge Creek, M-53, Great Lakes Crossing, Selfridge Base, Dave & Busters, several mutliplex theaters, a large number of parks, a lot of restaurants, Cj Barrymores and several airports.

Add all of that to the fact that propoerty taxes in Macomb County are the lowest among the big three counties and the price of a comparable home in Macomb County is a lot lower than a comparable home in Oakland County. And you have a pretty good reason to live close by. Michigan is a good state to live in with a lot great areas. As a Detroiter, I'm a lot more interested in trying to build my City up than tear other cities down.

That's kind of you to be so optimistic, but your description just makes it sounds so good that I feel I need to pick up the pace on my plans to move to Chicago.

Sorry, Snyder, I love Detroit but I'm not interested in sticking around much longer with the way things are going, and I sure as HELL don't want to live near anything like Hall Road, like virtually everyone I know and of my generation [[I don't give a shit that somebody here knows somebody who has a kid who moved to 19 mile). You old timers can grow even older here together and figure out how to pay for all this garbage yourselves, since you love it all so much, and wonder why your grandkids would leave such a paradise and scatter to four corners of the earth. Cheers!

[Bham1982]

That's kind of you to be so optimistic, but your description just makes it sounds so good that I feel I need to pick up the pace on my plans to move to Chicago.

Chicago's population loss is almost as bad as that of Detroit, and second worst in the nation.

Another sinking ship, and another emptying-out doughnut of a metro.

[kraig]

That's kind of you to be so optimistic, but your description just makes it sounds so good that I feel I need to pick up the pace on my plans to move to Chicago.

Sorry, Snyder, I love Detroit but I'm not interested in sticking around much longer with the way things are going, and I sure as HELL don't want to live near anything like Hall Road, like virtually everyone I know and of my generation [[I don't give a shit that somebody here knows somebody who has a kid who moved to 19 mile). You old timers can grow even older here together and figure out how to pay for all this garbage yourselves, since you love it all so much, and wonder why your grandkids would leave such a paradise and scatter to four corners of the earth. Cheers!

And if you take a good look at what you're saying. You'll realize that you're moving to Chicago for Chicago. Which is all the difference right now. No one is comparing Michigan with Illinois, Indiana or Ohio. They're comparing Detroit with Chicago, Indianapolis or Columbus. That's why a strong Detroit is necessary. Hence my desire to build it up. And not liking Hall Rd does nothing to accomplish that. Helping to keep my street clean, safe and well lit while supporting the businesses there will. Good luck to you in Chicago, it's a helluva city.

[bartock]

Which naturally leads to two questions:

1. When was the last time a developer asked you what you wanted? [[I think it's funny how suburbanites across America "want" to shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, and have all their buildings look the same. It must be because Applebee's is just so gosh darn delicious!).

2. Why do people in Southeast Michigan "want" to live near Hall Road, while in other metropolitan areas, housing values are higher closer to the core, thus indicating a "want" to live in the core?

Are you attributing this phenomenon soley to geographic and cultural differences?

I know that you believe what you think is fact, but the empirical evidence shows otherwise. None of that tacky plastic crap on Hall Road would have been constructed without enormous inflows of infrastructure cash from state and local governments.

But hey, "market demand" is an easier sell because you can explain everything by attributing it to some mystical force that runs the universe, and don't have to bother with actual investigation, facts, or nuance.

1. Naturally, you've read miles into things to fill your appetite for sarcasm, snarkiness, and basic disdain for everything here.

2. Your empirical evidence is always you, GP, as is your investigation, facts, and nuance. Pardon me for not blindly leading myself to your wonderful world of urban utopia and hatred of all else.

[Bham1982]

In other words--were PEOPLE clamoring to live in the Hall Road area, or were the DEVELOPERS clamoring to pave over the orchards?

It was definitely the people that came first, and the developers came in and filled the retail shortage.

Areas like Shelby and Macomb have been heavily developed for decades now. The GM Tech Center's massive postwar expansion fueled growth up Van Dyke past Utica.

Prior to Lakeside, there was basically no shopping for these folks. And, until Hall Road was expanded, all these folks had to travel to Oakland or South Macomb to get anything beyond Kmart/Meijer [[the old school, smaller ones).

Hall Road, while hideous, is a great location in real estate terms, and has been fabulously successful. Practically every chain in existence has a location.

[antongast]

Hall Road, while hideous...

I think it's telling that almost every defense of Hall Road posted in this thread has included a disclaimer to this effect. Why do we as a society accept the fact that new retail districts are built in a way that almost nobody likes? If people up in Macomb County demand retail, fine, great, give it to them. But jeezus, build it in a way that doesn't give people migraines every time they go near it.

[Bham1982]

I think it's telling that almost every defense of Hall Road posted in this thread has included a disclaimer to this effect. Why do we as a society accept the fact that new retail districts are built in a way that almost nobody likes? If people up in Macomb County demand retail, fine, great, give it to them. But jeezus, build it in a way that doesn't give people migraines every time they go near it.

I agree. Modern retail is generally disgusting, and Hall Rd is about as ugly as it gets. Super cheap-looking and soul-crushing.

But it doesn't seem to bother the masses.

[ghettopalmetto]

I agree. Modern retail is generally disgusting, and Hall Rd is about as ugly as it gets. Super cheap-looking and soul-crushing.

But it doesn't seem to bother the masses.

...or the people who excuse such generic architecture.



Here's a tidbit--from 2004. It's amazing how little people refuse to learn in eight years. You guys have fun deluding yourselves in your plastic Schaumburg--Michigan is collapsing around you regardless of how defiant you become.

the way southeast Michigan is growing will either bankrupt communities or lead to the same sort of massive dislocations in the suburbs that Detroit and other cities have already experienced because of crumbling roads and failing infrastructure. This summer SEMCOG published a study that said the region would need $70 billion to maintain its transportation networks until 2030. The agency said only $40 billion is available from current tax funds, meaning that if nothing changes in the financing picture for roads and transit, roughly half the need will not be met.


An earlier SEMCOG study found that serving the region’s water and sewer needs would cost $52 billion over the next generation. Most of the money to meet that need is unaccounted for, and fully 40 percent of the estimate SEMCOG made is to bring water and sewer lines to spur home and business construction in places nobody now lives and are still open fields, forests and wetlands.


“SEMCOG is bleeding us dry,” Barwin says. “We are $30 billion in the red as far as our current transportation infrastructure, and $60 billion if you count water and sewer. That’s a $2 billion per year deficit path these guys are leading us down. And they are supposed to be the experts.”

http://www2.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=6627

[iheartthed]

I suppose the specious argument is that the government built the infrastructure to allow this to happen in a never-ending froth and fervor driven desire to move everything out of Detroit. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out here, and as you and New York clearly know, Hall Road's expansion was built out of demand...people were already moving out there in droves. Yes, developers came to these "wanna-be Mayberry's" because that is where the people and money were and were moving to. So, to say that Hall Rd. was not dictated by market forces is fairly eyeball-gougingly confounding, unless one is to argue that NOTHING that exists today is dictated by market forces because EVERYTHING, it seems, is in one way or another, a direct or indirect product of a subsidy [[we can look at the current "demand" in Downtown Detroit, for example, if we are going to "go there.")

Show me where I said anything about Hall Road competing directly with Detroit? I doubt any of the stores along Hall Rd have ever had a location in Detroit, especially if the company is less than 30 years old. What I am saying is that Hall Rd was not driven by market demand... Or at least market demand for more retail in Metropolitan Detroit. Every new business along Hall Rd is coming at the expensive of some inner ring suburb that was the Hall Rd of the 1980s or 1990s.

[Scottathew]

What I am saying is that Hall Rd was not driven by market demand... Or at least market demand for more retail in Metropolitan Detroit.

I don't agree. Why else would developers build there if there was no demand for products and services?

Hall Road has been planned out for a while by the State. It's had a huge ROW, and I would imagine one day they may consider extending the M-59 freeway out to I-94.

The state's growing population [[back in the day), white flight, and people wanting more space have driven all this.

I currently live near 10\Mound, and this has all effected the area I live in. Universal Mall is dead, and the next two closest malls I don't go to because they're too trashy.

I too have plans to move further out, to probably Royal Oak\Clawson\Troy, but I don't ever want to live near M-59, that's too far away from my job in Detroit.

[iheartthed]

I don't agree. Why else would developers build there if there was no demand for products and services?

Well, developers are in the business of building and if they aren't building then they aren't making money. In a region with no population growth this means that much of the development is zero-sum: each new development comes at the expense of an older development.

Hall Road has been planned out for a while by the State. It's had a huge ROW, and I would imagine one day they may consider extending the M-59 freeway out to I-94.

Because your politicians work in the favor of deep pocketed developers.

The state's growing population [[back in the day), white flight, and people wanting more space have driven all this.

I currently live near 10\Mound, and this has all effected the area I live in. Universal Mall is dead, and the next two closest malls I don't go to because they're too trashy.

I too have plans to move further out, to probably Royal Oak\Clawson\Troy, but I don't ever want to live near M-59, that's too far away from my job in Detroit.

Well, you just confirmed my point.

[bartock]

Show me where I said anything about Hall Road competing directly with Detroit? I doubt any of the stores along Hall Rd have ever had a location in Detroit, especially if the company is less than 30 years old. What I am saying is that Hall Rd was not driven by market demand... Or at least market demand for more retail in Metropolitan Detroit. Every new business along Hall Rd is coming at the expensive of some inner ring suburb that was the Hall Rd of the 1980s or 1990s.

We can do the Hudon's-Marshall Fields-Macy's thing, and pretty much all of the type of retail that was once in Detroit, even if the names change. But, yes, as it relates specifically to Hall Rd, you are probably talking more about shifting from the inner-rings as opposed to city proper. My comment was more in response to some of the now-missing venom that was spewed earlier in the thread. For what it is worth, I shouldn't have lumped you in.

Anyway, I guess it would depend on how you define market demand for more retail. As the market changes, so does the demand, so whether the demand merely shifted from one location to another [[true), or whether overall growth of the region led to the demand [[not true), it was demand nonetheless.

[iheartthed]

Places where people eat and shop change, so that isn't really a fair point. But, I think you might find a place or two along that corridor that was originally in Detroit, or perhaps some earlier incarnation of which was in Detroit.

I guess it would depend on how you define market demand for more retail. As the market changes, so does the demand, so whether the demand merely shifted from one location to another [[true), or whether overall growth of the region led to the demand [[not true), it was demand nonetheless.

I don't have the time to research it in detail right now but I'm very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail. I know for sure that this wasn't originally the case since Northland and the other -land malls were all built on farm land.

[Hermod]

I don't have the time to research it in detail right now but I'm very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail. I know for sure that this wasn't originally the case since Northland and the other -land malls were all built on farm land.

The Rochester and Utica areas had massive numbers of farms plowed under and turned into subdivisions in the 50s and 60s when Auburn Road/Hall Road/Wm P Rosso Hwy was just a two lane blacktop.

[Mikeg]

I don't have the time to research it in detail right now but I'm very skeptical that Metro Detroit's pattern of development has been residential development before retail. I know for sure that this wasn't originally the case since Northland and the other -land malls were all built on farm land.

In 1950 there were more than 1,000,000 people living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. Are you trying to make us believe they were all living in farmhouses and sending their children to one-room schoolhouses?

25 years later, where did their children live when they got married? Unlike previous generations, they didn't want to live in a multi-generational household with mom, dad and grandma. Therefore they looked outside their parents' neighborhood for a place of their own to live in and developers accommodated the demand they created by building nearby apartments, homes and businesses, including retail. Since then, even as the total population growth rate in southeast Michigan went to zero, average household size continued to decrease, which also contributed to new housing demand. Middle class flight from the city of Detroit has been only one of many reasons for post-war suburban growth.

[Det_ard]

In 1950 there were more than 1,000,000 people living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. Are you trying to make us believe they were all living in farmhouses and sending their children to one-room schoolhouses?

25 years later, where did their children live when they got married? Unlike previous generations, they didn't want to live in a multi-generational household with mom, dad and grandma. Therefore they looked outside their parents' neighborhood for a place of their own to live in and developers accommodated the demand they created by building nearby apartments, homes and businesses, including retail. Since then, even as the total population growth rate in southeast Michigan went to zero, average household size continued to decrease, which also contributed to new housing demand. Middle class flight from the city of Detroit has been only one of many reasons for post-war suburban growth.

Absolutely right, and adding to the suburban growth has been consumer demand for larger homes on larger lots, a trend that only hit a recent speed bump due to the economy.

The average new house in 1950 was 983 sqft, in 2007 it was 2521 sqft. Many had 9' ceilings and 3 car garages. They weren't going to be building these larger houses on the traditional 35' x 100' city lot. The suburbs, with open land, were where people and developers were looking to build a home.

Add in lower household size and lack of attractiveness of living in the city for most people and you get the growth pattern we see now.