Bus rapid transit system could boost metro Detroit, experts say

[Wesley Mouch]

from Canuck...<snip>
Streetrail would entail termini building at important commercial points and improve pedestrian circulation in both directions of any given circuit. This may sound elementary and easy to overlook but essentially, the most positive aspect of an attractive, efficient LRT is the occupation of all the commercial space along the corridor. A BRT will not have the same attributes that a train or streetcar would.

Can you further explain this? 'Both directions of any given circuit'?? How does LRT drive commercial occupancy? What attributes of a train or streetcar matter here?

[Parkguy]

<snip>
This may sound elementary and easy to overlook but essentially, the most positive aspect of an attractive, efficient LRT is the occupation of all the commercial space along the corridor. A BRT will not have the same attributes that a train or streetcar would.

There have been many studies [[not experiments, but analysis of real numbers) that show that light rail increases property values. You can google something like "value of light rail" [[which I just did) and get a long list of articles, including arguements for, against, and back and forth on the issue. Arguments from the left, right, center, and outside the political spectrum. But, evidence from Portland shows huge investments along their LRT lines, for instance. When Seattle built a new streetcar line north of downtown, huge investment moved in even before the system was built, including a big cancer center and Amazon's headquarters, along with residential and mixed use. And that is a streetcar, which is slow. The Urban Land Institute did an analysis of the effects of the Metro system as it branched out into suburban Virginia, and they found that the same thing happened, plus it increased the total property tax base. On top of that-- the TAX BURDEN SHIFTED from auto-centric subdivision areas to the new high-density development. In other words, the new dense areas took a percentage of the total tax burden away from older areas. I would think that pro-sprawl, pro-auto-suburb folks would love that. I don't remember the numbers, but I wonder if the increased tax for the regional transit system and the amount saved by the shifted burden is a wash?

[Wesley Mouch]

There have been many studies [[not experiments, but analysis of real numbers) that show that light rail increases property values. You can google something like "value of light rail" [[which I just did) and get a long list of articles, including arguements for, against, and back and forth on the issue. Arguments from the left, right, center, and outside the political spectrum. But, evidence from Portland shows huge investments along their LRT lines, for instance. When Seattle built a new streetcar line north of downtown, huge investment moved in even before the system was built, including a big cancer center and Amazon's headquarters, along with residential and mixed use. And that is a streetcar, which is slow. The Urban Land Institute did an analysis of the effects of the Metro system as it branched out into suburban Virginia, and they found that the same thing happened, plus it increased the total property tax base. On top of that-- the TAX BURDEN SHIFTED from auto-centric subdivision areas to the new high-density development. In other words, the new dense areas took a percentage of the total tax burden away from older areas. I would think that pro-sprawl, pro-auto-suburb folks would love that. I don't remember the numbers, but I wonder if the increased tax for the regional transit system and the amount saved by the shifted burden is a wash?

Thanks for the discussion.

I view transit as a means of enabling commerce [[jobs) for the City and Metro Detroit, rather than a development strategy for the Cass Corridor [[aka Midtown).

Thus, I'm more in favor of volume over style.

[Parkguy]

Thanks for the discussion.

I view transit as a means of enabling commerce [[jobs) for the City and Metro Detroit, rather than a development strategy for the Cass Corridor [[aka Midtown).

Thus, I'm more in favor of volume over style.

Exactly, but some kinds of transit bring investment-- meaning construction, jobs, relocating businesses to a denser area, and so on-- and some kinds don't bring those advantages. Light rail brings the most investment, BRT brings some, and standard bus lines bring virtually none. One of the problems we have now is that residential development has sprawled, but industrial, retail, and services followed. That isn't an accident-- those things have all been done by policy. A study that Wm. Whyte talked about in his book <i>City</i> back in the '70s showed that regardless of the reasons companies gave for moving from New York City to suburban areas, the fact was that they virtually all relocated to within a short distance of the CEO's residence. People move to far suburbs, their businesses soon follow, and then we have to run BRT lines 50 miles out so that people can get to work. It will still take them hours to get there.

I guess my point is that we have to start somewhere, and Woodward Avenue is the obvious choice. We have to build a system that will begin the long process of re-densification of the region. Build a system that will virtually assure that dense development will follow. People who don't like the system don't have to use it. And, they can rest assured that the costs of maintaining their car-centric lifestyle will be shifted to the folks who move to the new dense developments. BRT is better than the dysfunctional system we have now, and will give a lot of people an opportunity to find work in places they can't even get to now. So, I see BRT, LRT, an improved bus system, bike lanes, and safe pedestrian infrastructure as parts of a balanced system that will be the real answer.

[professorscott]

I see BRT, LRT, an improved bus system, bike lanes, and safe pedestrian infrastructure as parts of a balanced system that will be the real answer.

Ahh, very refreshing to see some holistic thinking. This is exactly correct. We need to make travel convenient, all kinds of travel: walking, bicycling, driving, use of taxicabs, buses of all types, the People Mover since what the hell, it exists, and yes, someday, light rail and commuter rail. People need to be able to get around, and we must recognize that for various reasons not everyone drives.

It will be a combination of things, and not any one single thing, that will breathe new life into the City and the region. It is probably just as important that Detroit is slowly putting bike lanes onto roads, as it is that we are working on transit.

[Wesley Mouch]

Ahh, very refreshing to see some holistic thinking. This is exactly correct. We need to make travel convenient, all kinds of travel: walking, bicycling, driving, use of taxicabs, buses of all types, the People Mover since what the hell, it exists, and yes, someday, light rail and commuter rail. People need to be able to get around, and we must recognize that for various reasons not everyone drives.

It will be a combination of things, and not any one single thing, that will breathe new life into the City and the region. It is probably just as important that Detroit is slowly putting bike lanes onto roads, as it is that we are working on transit.

Yes. I rally against LRT, and for BRT. I want people to have open minds. LRT is rather 'old school'. Our options today are so much greater. But the truth is that I'd love to see LRT on Woodward. But even more, I want us to be open to what is achievable.

Detroit's finances are a mess. When Coleman was mayor, we kept getting money from the feds because of our political clout. Well, that's gone now. It moved south. Tennessee. Texas. Arizona. They've won.

If we fight really hard, we may get our fair share of transit [[or any other federal) money. But we're not going to get much in the way of gifts. We frankly don't matter much. So let's get ourselves going and do whatever we can.

So let's do bike paths! Fix our taxicab rules. Allow jitneys. Make sure you can get around our city. For us and for tourists.

Maybe all we can do now is bus lanes on Woodward with jump lights. Its sure wide enough. All that takes is a little paint and a few million of signal work.

Whatever it is, let's get behind it, and make it great.

[downtownguy]

Well said, Parkguy. Thanks for the post.

[hortonz]

The BRT, LRT or whatever the latest plan for mass transit in Metro Detroit is called, will never see the light of day. The federal government approved an LRT for Detroit during the Ford administration and what did Detroit get?