Are you willing to 6 dollars for a gallon of gas!

[maxx]

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...inline=nyt-org
"...For years, the agency had to prove that a trader intended to manipulate the market — and successfully created artificial prices. Now, under Dodd-Frank, the agency need only show that a trader intended to act “recklessly.” The rules, modeled on the S.E.C.’s insider trading ban, also prohibits trading on “material nonpublic” information that is obtained illegally..."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1249576.html
[What a surprise. Businesses are slowing down implementation of Dodd Frank.]

"
The intensity of the industry pressure can be overwhelming -- petroleum marketing firms, airlines and lobbyists represented the majority of 13,000 comment letters sent to the Commodity Futures Trading Commission over a single proposed rule on position limits, the highest number of commodity futures and contracts that a trader can hold, the Sunlight Foundation reported last September..."

And then there are the Reps. that want to nullify Dodd Frank. No wonder nothing gets done.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm okay with $6 a gallon gas. Petrol is currently about $10 a gallon in the UK, and about $12 a gallon in oil-rich Norway.

I'd be MORE than okay with $6 a gallon gas if we woke the fuck up and started building intercity trains, intracity transit, and walkable neighborhoods.

[old guy]

Another Startling Oil Chart
If we couple the increased domestic production with decreased domestic consumption, guess what? The United States is actually now a net exporter of oil. For the first time since the 1940s.

[rb336]

stop confusing the drill baby drill crowd with facts

[oladub]

That was is a falsely labeled chart that must have been passed out on some liberal blog. I saw it one other place this morning. First, it says "the US is exporting more OIL than it is importing" in the title; wrong. Then, in the graph itself,it says "US trade in REFINED OIL PRODUCTS". Refined oil products are a subset of total oil. The US is not a "net exporter of oil for the first time since the 1940s." In the new chart below, note the red line shows a small positive net export of petroleum products compared with the blue total net oil imports. The difference is about a negative 7m barrels per quarter.

Figure 2. Red line: U.S. net exports of petroleum products, average of most recent 12 weeks, in thousands of barrels per day, Jan 5, 2007 to Dec 16, 2011 [[same series as in Figure 1 above). Blue line: U.S. net exports of crude petroleum, average of most recent 12 weeks, in thousands of barrels per day. Data source: EIA.

[jiminnm]

Diesel exports ramped up 3-4 years ago because other countries lacked refinery capabilities and the exporters could get more $ selling diesel overseas. That's one reason the price difference between diesel and gasoline is greater than it ever used to be.

[rb336]

That was is a falsely labeled chart that must have been passed out on some liberal blog.

The Wall Street Journal is a liberal blog????

why did you merely link to a chart with no information? why not the page BEFORE it -- that goes for both charts.

[rb336]

The whole issue of exporting petroleum products disturbs me for a couple of reasons -- one is that they get the refined products while we get the pollution and the other is that some Big Petroleum folks say one of the reasons for our higher prices is lack of refinery capacity. so we pay for those exports twice, once with our environment and once with our wallets

[oladub]

The Wall Street Journal is a liberal blog????

why did you merely link to a chart with no information? why not the page BEFORE it -- that goes for both charts.

I didn't say that the Wall Street Journal was a liberal blog. It is also not the same as the Wall Street Daily which seems to have issued the first chart with an incorrect heading and description. The information in the Daily chart is consistent with the red line in the chart I provided. My chart just added the blue line representing the "US net exports of crude petroleum, average of most recent 12 weeks, in thousands of barrels per day" There is aso a link to the original US Energy Information Data which proves that the heading and description on the first chart were wrong.

[Detroitej72]

The reason gas is at $4 a gallon is because we allow commodity trading and political games to be played by the oil companies.

Take out the speculators sitting behind their computers playing games clicking and clicking and oil prices will drop, that is a fact, despite what FoxNews tells you.

Also, the pipeline is a bold faced lie, despite what Rush and Fox tell you, as oil is America's main export.

[TKshreve]

that is a fact, despite what FoxNews tells you.

Too funny! I could add that addendum onto roughly 60% of the conversations I have with people about todays issues.

I wish there was a "double-bold" format for text. lol

[rb336]

I didn't say that the Wall Street Journal was a liberal blog. It is also not the same as the Wall Street Daily which seems to have issued the first chart with an incorrect heading and description. The information in the Daily chart is consistent with the red line in the chart I provided. My chart just added the blue line representing the "US net exports of crude petroleum, average of most recent 12 weeks, in thousands of barrels per day" There is aso a link to the original US Energy Information Data which proves that the heading and description on the first chart were wrong.

You said "That was is a falsely labeled chart that must have been passed out on some liberal blog" when in fact it was WSJ sourced. Why can't you ever simply throw out an "oops" instead of doing mindless bs to prove you weren't wrong -- an impossibility in this case

[3WC]

There is so much misinformation on this thread that it's difficult to know where to start. So, just a few comments.

Speculators control and manipulate the price of crude. That's what lots of folks think and they are, of course wrong. First, traders on NYMEX [[and other exchanges) could care less what the price of cruse is. They are interested in one thing, trading volume. That's the only way they make money, by handling trades. Rarely do they trade for their own accounts and most will admit they know very little about the oil business. They could be trading pork bellies for all they care and would be if they lived in Chicago.

Traders execute order from customers who are of course speculating. Every trade has a winner and a loser. Every trade is a speculation. Just like the stock market. The great volume of trading are by customers who actually use the products; they are hedging by trying to predict future prices of products upon which their businesses depend. Big hedgers are the airlines. They have no other choice but to try and protect themselves from wild swings in the market. NOBODY can accurately predict the price of crude oil very far in the future but of course many businesses are forced to do just that.

Oil prices are controlled to a certain extent by OPEC countries. They have the ability to do so, and thank God that the biggest producer, Saudi Arabia, is very aware that when prices get too high it hurts them as well. MOST of their petrodollar earnings are invested in the U.S. and they're smart enough to know that if they cut production and raise the price, it bites them in the butt because the value of their investments here decline. Saudi has exercised its market power - 2 million bbl per day excess capacity - pretty much as a good friend to the U.S.

Geopoltical risk is one of the prime reasons crude oil is more expensive than it should be based on supply and demand.

The biggest reason crude is so high is the facts that the U.S. dollar is low now and expected to become - not worthless - but diminished in value. Oil is traded worldwide in dollars. For over two years there has been a movement in the OPEC and other producing countries to make the Euro the official currency for buying and selling oil. Because of the problems in Europe, however, that idea has been put on the back shelf. [[I'd love to see it happen because I would start getting more for my oil than I am now.)

The major cause of high crude prices is U.S. govt energy policiies oractually, the lack of a sensible one. This administration - evidenced by public positions of Pelosi and Geithner, and to a lesser extent, by inuendo, the president himself. The policy is that gasoline should be $8/gallon or whatever the price is in Europe. The reason is that these people want to save the planet and high gas prices will force people to buy small fuel efficient vehicles and support the huge subsidies to alternative fuels. Europe's prices are high because of taxation, a method that's not possible to implement here. So, Obama has restricted wherever possible the ability of oil companies to drill for oil iin the U.S., to drill where the oil is. Regulations have been imposed which drastically slow the search for and production of new oil fields. That's terrible for the economy of the country, but very, VERY good for me bacause I don't drill on federal lands or offshore.

The govt controls GM with its 26% ownership. Don't even question that. Who in their right mind would bring the Volt to market under the conditions GM did? Nobody but the Obama Administration. Four or five months ago GM pres Ackman said he though it would be good for the country if gas taxes were increased by a dollar. What an idiot. He's a guy with no pride. The administration told him to take that position so it could guage the impact on the public. Well, down here in TX I'll tell you what it was. Folks down here get in bar fights over whether GM or Ford makes the best pickups. I know several Chevy users who've never bought another brand say they'll never buy another GM product. Ackman successfuly alienated the buyers who buy the only vehicles where GM really makes big profits, p/up, Suburbans etc. We're going to end up with more spotted owls than any other country on the planet but we'll become a second rate debtor nation in the process, a step or two above Greece.

Oh, we import huge amount of refined products, gas, diesel etc. We also expotr some because of several reasons, among them the fact that refineries to run efficiently must operate all out 24/7. Because of reduced demand the unused product is exported to Mexico, primarily; it's not being used here. [[Refineries are among the businesses with very low profit margins and they therefore must run very efficiently and get rid of excess products however they can. At the end of ONE MONTH recently, we exported more than we imported [[imports being down for the same supply and demand reasons.)

These are extremely simplistic explanations of a couple of these issues, and if you've read through this entire post, congratulations; you must have a real interest in the topic.

[rb336]

Speculators control and manipulate the price of crude. That's what lots of folks think and they are, of course wrong. First, traders on NYMEX [[and other exchanges) could care less what the price of cruse is. They are interested in one thing, trading volume.

all of which makes an already volatile commodity even more volatile. The futures go up and WE start paying more before the actual price goes up. That is a simple fact of the market.

The biggest reason crude is so high is the facts that the U.S. dollar is low now and expected to become - not worthless - but diminished in value. Oil is traded worldwide in dollars. For over two years there has been a movement in the OPEC and other producing countries to make the Euro the official currency for buying and selling oil. Because of the problems in Europe, however, that idea has been put on the back shelf. [[I'd love to see it happen because I would start getting more for my oil than I am now.)

demonstrably wrong, as has been shown in numerous posts by various people WITH supporting documentation

The major cause of high crude prices is U.S. govt energy policiies oractually, the lack of a sensible one. This administration - evidenced by public positions of Pelosi and Geithner, and to a lesser extent, by inuendo, the president himself. The policy is that gasoline should be $8/gallon or whatever the price is in Europe. The reason is that these people want to save the planet and high gas prices will force people to buy small fuel efficient vehicles and support the huge subsidies to alternative fuels. Europe's prices are high because of taxation, a method that's not possible to implement here. So, Obama has restricted wherever possible the ability of oil companies to drill for oil iin the U.S., to drill where the oil is.

show me ONE piece of evidence to support this. Oil production declined every year under dubya [[as it has been since the 80s), and bottomed out in 2008

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/Lea...s=MCRFPUS2&f=A

As far as your comments about GM, etc, they planned on bringing out the Volt WELL before government involvement. The government is NOT making product OR marketing decisions. And GM just posted its largest EVER annual profit. That is just horrible for America.

[oladub]

3WC: The biggest reason crude is so high is the facts that the U.S. dollar is low now and expected to become - not worthless - but diminished in value. Oil is traded worldwide in dollars. For over two years there has been a movement in the OPEC and other producing countries to make the Euro the official currency for buying and selling oil. Because of the problems in Europe, however, that idea has been put on the back shelf. [[I'd love to see it happen because I would start getting more for my oil than I am now.)

rb: demonstrably wrong, as has been shown in numerous posts by various people WITH supporting documentation

I attribute the recent spurt in gasoline prices more to tension related to Iran than anything but going back over fifty years, the devaluation of our currency probably has more to do with the increase in all sorts of prices including gasoline. Speculators are either stupid to be risking their money or they are being rational in response to the Iran crises. The best way to control the speculators is to remove their concerns by ending the embargo and otherwise to stop harassing Iran.

The Short Unhappy Life of Fiat Currency

[rb336]

I attribute the recent spurt in gasoline prices more to tension related to Iran than anything but going back over fifty years, the devaluation of our currency probably has more to do with the increase in all sorts of prices including gasoline. Speculators are either stupid to be risking their money or they are being rational in response to the Iran crises. The best way to control the speculators is to remove their concerns by ending the embargo and otherwise to stop harassing Iran.

The Short Unhappy Life of Fiat Currency

So appeasement is your answer to Iranian nuclear ambitions?

And thank you once again for another unsourced piece of gold-bug BS

[maxx]

3WC:So, Obama has restricted wherever possible the ability of oil companies to drill for oil iin the U.S., to drill where the oil is. Regulations have been imposed which drastically slow the search for and production of new oil fields.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-02-27/news/chi-obama-and-oil-production-20120227_1_oil-production-barrels-president-obama

"...According to the latest data, more oil is coming out of these federal areas under President Obama than under his predecessor..."

[rb336]

These guys operate on belief and blather rather than fact

[oladub]

So appeasement is your answer to Iranian nuclear ambitions?

And thank you once again for another unsourced piece of gold-bug BS

Rb, You are sounding more like Dick Cheney all the time. I assume your imperialistic attitude means you are ok with creating tensions in the Persian Gulf area even if it raises gas prices or increases the odds of WWIII. Please explain the morality of intimidating other countries to behave as if they were our vassal states? How did the US ascertain that power or right? Libya abandoned it's nuclear weapons program in compliance with Western demands and then Obama bombed Libya. I'm not sure how that action was supposed to encourage Iran to similarly end it's nuclear program.

The Short Unhappy Life of Fiat Currency by Stefen Molyneux whose comments included statistics unlike your own. Maybe you can make a list of fiat currencies which have lasted even one hundred years and retained their value. If so, you could disprove Mr. Molyneux. Otherwise, you will have to content yourself with writing things like "demonstrably wrong, as has been shown in numerous posts by various people WITH supporting documentation" without providing documentation or statistics.Which fiat currencies buy as much gasoline as they did 50 years ago as gold does? That is all you have to tell us to back your statement.

[rb336]

Rb, You are sounding more like Dick Cheney all the time. I assume your imperialistic attitude means you are ok with creating tensions in the Persian Gulf area even if it raises gas prices or increases the odds of WWIII. Please explain the morality of intimidating other countries to behave as if they were our vassal states?

embargoes are not exactly intimidation. coercion, yes. Embargoes aren't invasions, You propose letting a regime that has shown time and time again its intention to wipe out Israel and other allies of our in the region, not to mention US, develop nuclear weapons with no effort to prevent it? If paying more for gas can get us to a non-nuclear Iran, yeah, I'm willing to pay more

How did the US ascertain that power or right? Libya abandoned it's nuclear weapons program in compliance with Western demands and then Obama bombed Libya. I'm not sure how that action was supposed to encourage Iran to similarly end it's nuclear program.

Libya has a long history of supporting terrorist groups, AND, of course, they bombed an American jet over Scotland.

The Short Unhappy Life of Fiat Currency by Stefen Molyneux whose comments included statistics unlike your own. Maybe you can make a list of fiat currencies which have lasted even one hundred years and retained their value.

It's Stefan, by the way, and am I supposed to say "Oh! some schmuck posted a video to youtube, the arguments MUST be right!"? The guy was using cherry picked extreme examples and ignoring any other causes for the collapse of the currencies -- namely, that the entire economies collapsed due to circumstances having nothing to do with their currencies. it is just the kind of BS that makes you so laughable. Most currencies not on the gold standard remain viable - until other forces lead to economic collapse. The vast majority of collapsed currencies happen in undeveloped countries. Those that happen in developed countries happen as a result of other forces - usually war and civil war at that. I have yet to see one that didn't. Another common factor is national debt that is is in the THOUSANDS of percent of the GDP. Your arguments are mere dogmatic histrionics.

[oladub]

Rb, Dick Cheney or Rick Santorum would agree with you. Embargoes are a coercive and hostile act. The British embargoed our early colonies now we are acting like Iran is acting like a bad economic colony. Combine that with when the President announces that we are in “lock step“ with Israel and that “we’re not going to take any options off the table” and we have intimidation.

Libya did bomb an American Jet over Scotland. Some bombs were dropped on Libya in reprisal. That has long ago been resolved. Since then, Libya decided to rejoin the world community and ended its nuclear bomb program. Then Obama bombed Libya.

Once again, you substitute rhetorical terms like “BS” and “dogmatic histrionics” as a substitute for your inability to cite one example of a fiat currency that has held up it’s purchasing power of gasoline for instance or, more often, disappeared from the face of the earth; the point made in the video. The fact remains that the melt value of three pre-1965 dimes will purchase almost 2 gallons of gasoline today because of their silver content. Of the hundreds of past and present fiat currencies available as examples, which of them has held up their value even half as well? Use developed countries' currencies as examples if you wish.

[old guy]

If you add in all the costs of all the wars and conflicts we've fought in to protect our interest [[real or false) in oil supply, what's the real cost of oil?

[rb336]

Rb, Dick Cheney or Rick Santorum would agree with you. Embargoes are a coercive and hostile act. The British embargoed our early colonies now we are acting like Iran is acting like a bad economic colony. Combine that with when the President announces that we are in “lock step“ with Israel and that “we’re not going to take any options off the table” and we have intimidation.

No, we are acting like Iran is a country that repeatedly threatens our allies and our security. both of those are facts.

Libya did bomb an American Jet over Scotland. Some bombs were dropped on Libya in reprisal. That has long ago been resolved. Since then, Libya decided to rejoin the world community and ended its nuclear bomb program. Then Obama bombed Libya.

Once again, you substitute rhetorical terms like “BS” and “dogmatic histrionics” as a substitute for your inability to cite one example of a fiat currency that has held up it’s purchasing power of gasoline for instance or, more often, disappeared from the face of the earth; the point made in the video. The fact remains that the melt value of three pre-1965 dimes will purchase almost 2 gallons of gasoline today because of their silver content. Of the hundreds of past and present fiat currencies available as examples, which of them has held up their value even half as well? Use developed countries' currencies as examples if you wish.

Once again, I point out that every example used is an EXTREME example and that the relevant context of the currency collapse is ignored/left out. I provided clear reasons why the collapse of other currencies you constantly cite were caused by reasons unrelated to the gold standard. saying "this currency collapsed" and saying it is because it had no gold standard requires PROOF -- and that would be by showing that there were not other reasons that the currency actually collapsed. you throw up an event level non causa pro causa argument. Then you ask "Which fiat currencies buy as much gasoline as they did 50 years ago as gold does? " which is an absurd question based on a false premise -- that being viable means there is no inflation. You have YET to show a single example of a country with a productive economy that had its currency collapse.

[Mikeg]

..... And GM just posted its largest EVER annual profit. That is just horrible for America.

You do know that there is only one reason that was "the largest EVER annual profit" for GM and it has absolutely nothing to do with the management of GM, it's products or the market.

It is simply due to the "Notices" issued by President Obama's Treasury Department under the direction of Secretary Timothy Geithner that gave "New GM" and its partial owner, the US Treasury, the unprecedented ability to ignore Section 382 of the US Tax Code and carry-forward $46.4 billion worth of net operating losses. [source]

As a result of the US Treasury unilaterally exempting itself from the law, GM was able to avoid paying $2.98 billion in taxes last year on their way to that "record" $7.6 billion profit. If Section 382 of the tax code had applied, GM's 2011 profit would have been about $4.5 billion, nice, but hardly a record. [source]

While that may be good for GM shareholders [[including the US Treasury, in the unlikely event that GM's stock price ever reaches the $53 per share price needed to break-even on the taxpayer's "investment" in GM), this disregard for the rule of law "is just horrible for America".

BTW 3WC, thanks for your analysis and insight.

[maxx]

If you add in all the costs of all the wars and conflicts we've fought in to protect our interest [[real or false) in oil supply, what's the real cost of oil?

Right on the mark, old guy.
I don't understand all the interest in gold today in the 21st c. It's pretty and we make jewelry and dental caps with it, but when our agriculture begins to dry up from lack of fresh water, it won't be very satisfying.
I think all this sabre rattling on the right is about feeding all the private companies who produce private armies and charge our gov. three or more times for services the gov. military used to provide. No wonder our budget is a mess.