L. Brooks: "I Don't Want to End Sprawl. I Love it."

[jon]

2 things

1: property markets are regional. the issue of vacancy is hard to cope with when swindlers in the sticks throw up garbage tract housing like it's going out of style [[i suppose they're done now that its out of style)

2: i'll give you your right to build a house where ever you want if you give me and my neighbors the right to charge you a fee every time you drive on the roads near our homes, polluting our air with your exhaust and noise, killing and maiming our friends and generally taking up space that you don't pay for any other way. deal?

[Detroitnerd]

I didn't speak to any causes. My point was to the people that have been moving out of Detroit for the past 20 years, and today. Overwhelmingly black.

By looking at a narrow period from 1992 to 2002, we may therefore say that it was not racism that make white suburban residents turn their backs on the city. We may show instead how white suburban residents have turned their backs on not just the city, but anyplace with black residents. Frank Rizzo was telling me about this. He said, "You know, Southfield used to be a great place. South Warren too. But now I'm worried about the crime and the schools in those places. The property values are going south there now, and the sort of family-friendly community I remember isn't there anymore. Heck, that's OK. I figure I-696 was the new Eight Mile."

And after two beers, Frank told me: "If those animals want to destroy Southfield too, that's fine. I'll just keep moving north until my only black neighbors are bears."

[DC48080]

2 things

1: property markets are regional. the issue of vacancy is hard to cope with when swindlers in the sticks throw up garbage tract housing like it's going out of style [[i suppose they're done now that its out of style)


2: i'll give you your right to build a house where ever you want if you give me and my neighbors the right to charge you a fee every time you drive on the roads near our homes, polluting our air with your exhaust and noise, killing and maiming our friends and generally taking up space that you don't pay for any other way. deal?

It is not your place to give anyone the right to build a home where they choose. Who appointed you Emperor of all the land? And just who is "killing and maiming" your friends anyway?

And just who exactly is "generally taking up space that you don't pay for any other way"?? The only folks I see doing that are those fools at the "Occupy" free for all parties.

This idea that only people in Detroit are paying for the infrastructure in the outlying areas is laughable. Every property owner in the state pays taxes to their local city, their county and to the state itself. I have news for you, the amount of taxes Detroit residents pay is a mere drop in the bucket in comparison to the taxes the rest of the folks in the state pay. In case you haven't been paying attention, property in Detroit isn't worth a whole lot these days. The lower the property value, the lower the taxes. Sure, values have dropped everywhere but Detroit's values are nothing compared to most other cities.

[antongast]

"They'll come around..." It isn't condenscension. Shit, it's about the only thing getting older is good for...experience.

The condescension is in the implicit assumption that everyone's views will converge toward yours as they gain experience, or alternatively that everyone's life experiences will serve to confirm your worldview. For my part, I almost certainly would have found your arguments more persuasive when I was five or ten years younger.

[Detroitnerd]

I shared that with Frank Rizzo. He wants to give DC a high-five. He was all like, "How dare those people in Detroit complain about anything. I am determined that they'll never see a nickel of my money, but those lucky duckies get everything for free down there. And I know I am paying for it, those no-good ..."

Then Frank started praising Craig DeRoche, saying, "That's the way to do it. When it came to building infrastructure in and around metro Detroit, he wanted all these hearings held in outlying areas like Canton, Grand Rapids and Waterford, not in Detroit. He said, 'We need to build roads where people live, work and pay their taxes. Fixing roads where people used to live, or where we want them to live will only delay projects which will contribute to economic growth and an improved quality of life for Michigan residents.' That's the ticket, man. Any penny the state can squeeze out of Detroiters should be spent where real families live."

[DC48080]

^ Just the response I expected. Pavlov's dog does indeed respond the ringing of the bell.

[antongast]

^ Just the response I expected. Pavlov's dog does indeed respond the ringing of the bell.

Are you posting here as some sort of social experiment?

[DC48080]

Are you posting here as some sort of social experiment?

Not at all. Just pointing out the false and ever so agonizingly tired use of his "Frank Rizzo" straw man.

[Hermod]

With all due respect, that is the biggest, most steaming pile of horseshit I've ever seen you peddle on this forum. You should know better, as you helped build the expressways as early as 1961. White flight began with the end of racial covenants and the blockbusting of the 1950s and 1960s. There was no racial animus at play when Warren became the third largest city in the state during the 1960s? Or did that happen in a flash in 1968?

Yes, I worked for the city in 1961. The Ford ended at Gratiot on its east end. The Chrysler didn't go north of the Ford. I forget now where the Lodge terminated on the north end. So all of these fantasies that you like to indulge in that the expressways made everyone move to Oakland and Macomb sure don't hold water for the 1946-1961 time frame.

During the depression, getting married often meant just moving in with one set of parents. There was a massive in migration from the south both black and white which had to be housed. There was a massive demand that was pent up and which exploded post war. Every single vacant lot on all of the blocks around where I lived was filled up between 1946 and 1954. Detroit got built out quickly and the inner ring suburbs quickly filled up as well [[little boxes full of ticky-tacky) out to 14 mile.

There was another driver going on at the same time. Much of the manufacturing plant was worn out from the war and 15 years of low investment in machinery. The factories were functionally obsolete. There were no large available spaces in Detroit and the PTB didn't want to condemn neighborhoods to assemble any large plots [[leave that to CAY). Many industrial facilities were constructed in the area between 8 and 14 mile. This further spurred people to buy out there so that they could live close to work.

Check out a sixties Warren phone book. Most of the names are Slavic. Until the southern migrations, the Slavs were at the bottom of the totem pole for housing in Detroit. They could finally afford to move into decent housing as Warren was opening up.

[DC48080]

Yes, I worked for the city in 1961. The Ford ended at Gratiot on its east end. The Chrysler didn't go north of the Ford. I forget now where the Lodge terminated on the north end. So all of these fantasies that you like to indulge in that the expressways made everyone move to Oakland and Macomb sure don't hold water for the 1946-1961 time frame.

During the depression, getting married often meant just moving in with one set of parents. There was a massive in migration from the south both black and white which had to be housed. There was a massive demand that was pent up and which exploded post war. Every single vacant lot on all of the blocks around where I lived was filled up between 1946 and 1954. Detroit got built out quickly and the inner ring suburbs quickly filled up as well [[little boxes full of ticky-tacky) out to 14 mile.

There was another driver going on at the same time. Much of the manufacturing plant was worn out from the war and 15 years of low investment in machinery. The factories were functionally obsolete. There were no large available spaces in Detroit and the PTB didn't want to condemn neighborhoods to assemble any large plots [[leave that to CAY). Many industrial facilities were constructed in the area between 8 and 14 mile. This further spurred people to buy out there so that they could live close to work.

Check out a sixties Warren phone book. Most of the names are Slavic. Until the southern migrations, the Slavs were at the bottom of the totem pole for housing in Detroit. They could finally afford to move into decent housing as Warren was opening up.

Very well stated facts, Hermod.

But you must be careful not to let truth, facts and logic go against the omnipresent DYes "Detroit is the center of the universe and everything else sucks" or "anyone who leaves Detroit or has never lived in it is a racist" festival.

[Detroitnerd]

Yes, I worked for the city in 1961. The Ford ended at Gratiot on its east end. The Chrysler didn't go north of the Ford. I forget now where the Lodge terminated on the north end. So all of these fantasies that you like to indulge in that the expressways made everyone move to Oakland and Macomb sure don't hold water for the 1946-1961 time frame.

Sorry, Hermod. I don't see anybody here claiming that freeways moved people to the suburbs before they were built. But, undeniably, cars and road improvements DO allow people to travel faster within a short amount of time and live farther away from where they work. My grandpa left Detroit in 1923 or so and moved to Dearborn, as did a lot of people. Improved roads and cars made that possible. And the later freeways doubled down on all that, doing great harm to the cities while they invited settlement over the beet fields.

During the depression, getting married often meant just moving in with one set of parents. There was a massive in migration from the south both black and white which had to be housed. There was a massive demand that was pent up and which exploded post war. Every single vacant lot on all of the blocks around where I lived was filled up between 1946 and 1954. Detroit got built out quickly and the inner ring suburbs quickly filled up as well [[little boxes full of ticky-tacky) out to 14 mile.

The massive immigration from the south begins more with the war than the depression. A lot of rootless people DID come to Detroit during the 1930s, but not on the scale of 1941 to 1945. As for neighborhoods filling in, yes, there was a federally subsidized housing boom after the war, with millions of units built. The Housings Acts of 1947 and 1953. Unfortunately, very little of that money would end up helping cities. Much of that money would go to bulldozing "slums" on the idea that if you destroy where the poor live, they will disappear.

There was another driver going on at the same time. Much of the manufacturing plant was worn out from the war and 15 years of low investment in machinery. The factories were functionally obsolete. There were no large available spaces in Detroit and the PTB didn't want to condemn neighborhoods to assemble any large plots [[leave that to CAY). Many industrial facilities were constructed in the area between 8 and 14 mile. This further spurred people to buy out there so that they could live close to work.

Even before CAY, whole neighborhoods were definitely turned into industrial sites. As for building factories farther out, why list all these drivers when it was also U.S. national policy: Dispersal of industry to protect against Soviet nuclear attack.

Check out a sixties Warren phone book. Most of the names are Slavic. Until the southern migrations, the Slavs were at the bottom of the totem pole for housing in Detroit. They could finally afford to move into decent housing as Warren was opening up.

Not sure what the hell you're talking about, Hermod. At first, I called you out for saying that white flight did not happen until 1968. And now, looking over what you've written, I don't see any defense of your initial post.

Where is the evidence that pre-1968 white outmigration from Detroit was not white flight, whereas it was after 1968? Hullo?

[Detroitnerd]

Very well satsted [sic] facts, Hermod.

Yeah, except they don't prove nothin' and they're not all correct.

But you must be careful not to let truth, facts and logic go against the omnipresent DYes "Detroit is the center of the universe and everything else sucks" or "anyone who leaves Detroit or has never lived in it is a racist" festival.

When people feel the need to engage in reductionist absurdities such as the passage above, I think they're all out of good, rational responses.

Don't want to sound like Frank Rizzo? Don't think like Frank Rizzo.

[DC48080]

Don't want to sound like a Detroitist race-baiter, don't think like one.

So by the way, why did your Grandfather [[was his name F. Rizzo?) move out of Detroit in '23? Was it to get away from "those people"?

[Novine]

"This idea that only people in Detroit are paying for the infrastructure in the outlying areas is laughable."

Nice strawman. Too bad no one has made that claim. What's been stated is that it's foolish to allow people moving out into the hinterlands to demand millions of dollars for infrastructure to subsidize their living choices. Meanwhile, taxpayers in established communities are forced to pay for that new infrastructure and to maintain what's in their established community. You also ignore that much of the infrastructure in the suburbs isn't paid for in current taxes. Most of it has been financed through debt, either locally or through the federal government.

[DC48080]

It is no straw man. I see that refrain on here often.

And you don't think that Detroit's growth back in the day wasn't financed through debt or subsidized by the Federal government?

[313WX]

By looking at a narrow period from 1992 to 2002, we may therefore say that it was not racism that make white suburban residents turn their backs on the city. We may show instead how white suburban residents have turned their backs on not just the city, but anyplace with black residents. Frank Rizzo was telling me about this. He said, "You know, Southfield used to be a great place. South Warren too. But now I'm worried about the crime and the schools in those places. The property values are going south there now, and the sort of family-friendly community I remember isn't there anymore. Heck, that's OK. I figure I-696 was the new Eight Mile."

And after two beers, Frank told me: "If those animals want to destroy Southfield too, that's fine. I'll just keep moving north until my only black neighbors are bears."

Although we disagree on JUST a few things, I love most of posts.

The delivery is second to none, and even if you kick a few people in the nuts with them, they're all spot on.

[Novine]

"I have news for you, the amount of taxes Detroit residents pay is a mere drop in the bucket in comparison to the taxes the rest of the folks in the state pay."

I have news for you, Detroit's property tax value is still twice almost twice as large as the next closest city,Troy. Detroit's property tax value is larger than all but a handful of Michigan counties. Detroit's property value is even larger than Livingston County. Any more misinformation you wish to share?

[Novine]

"And you don't think that Detroit's growth back in the day wasn't financed through debt or subsidized by the Federal government?"

Detroit largely financed its own infrastructure. It wasn't financed by the farmers living out in the sticks. Now Detroit has to pay to maintain its own infrastructure and pay a share of the infrastructure being built out in the outer burbs.

[DC48080]

"I have news for you, the amount of taxes Detroit residents pay is a mere drop in the bucket in comparison to the taxes the rest of the folks in the state pay."

I have news for you, Detroit's property tax value is still twice almost twice as large as the next closest city,Troy. Detroit's property tax value is larger than all but a handful of Michigan counties. Detroit's property value is even larger than Livingston County. Any more misinformation you wish to share?

Then why is Detroit the way it is today compared to the apples to oranges examples you bring up?

Any rational person will see that Troy or Livingston County is a much more desirable place to live and that individual property values are far higher than in the city of Detroit.

[stromberg2]

By looking at a narrow period from 1992 to 2002, we may therefore say that it was not racism that make white suburban residents turn their backs on the city. We may show instead how white suburban residents have turned their backs on not just the city, but anyplace with black residents. Frank Rizzo was telling me about this. He said, "You know, Southfield used to be a great place. South Warren too. But now I'm worried about the crime and the schools in those places. The property values are going south there now, and the sort of family-friendly community I remember isn't there anymore. Heck, that's OK. I figure I-696 was the new Eight Mile."

And after two beers, Frank told me: "If those animals want to destroy Southfield too, that's fine. I'll just keep moving north until my only black neighbors are bears."

Fuckin' classic!! Nerd, one of Dyes' Hall of Famers!

Stromberg2

[Detroitej72]

Too bad all the Governors since Romney have also wanted to live at 50 Mile Road like their constituents.

Gee, since Romney, we've had Governors like Jim Blanchard, who was from Pleasant Ridge, at Woodward and 10 Mile and Jenny Granholm who lived in Indian Village then Northville, which is far from "50 Mile Road"

I think your argument is a wee bit flawed.

[Novine]

"Any rational person will see that Troy or Livingston County is a much more desirable place to live and that individual property values are far higher than in the city of Detroit."

Again, so what? You claimed that Detroit's contribution in property taxes was "a drop in the bucket" in comparison to what is paid by other taxpayers across the state. After being shown that Detroit's property taxes are more than most counties, even those as big as Livingston County, you come back with this? Got any other lame responses?

[Hermod]

I have news for you, Detroit's property tax value is still twice almost twice as large as the next closest city,Troy. Detroit's property tax value is larger than all but a handful of Michigan counties. Detroit's property value is even larger than Livingston County. Any more misinformation you wish to share?

Not a good argument

Detroit's property tax value leads to taxes which are spent in Detroit.

The Detroit taxes which go to Lansing are primarily the sales, gas, state income, and state intangibles taxes. What is Detroit's share of those taxes coming back? From the state perspective, is Detroit a "donor" entity or a "consumer" entity?

While the numbered highways are built and maintained through state and federal funds, most of the paving of the section line roads in Oakland County are paid for by the county. road people.

[Novine]

"The Detroit taxes which go to Lansing are primarily the sales, gas, state income, and state intangibles taxes. What is Detroit's share of those taxes coming back? From the state perspective, is Detroit a "donor" entity or a "consumer" entity?"

Why limit the discussion to Detroit? Rural Michigan townships don't pay to the state anywhere near what they get back. The same is often true of sprawl locations. I know that Novi kicks in a lot of tax dollars to the state. But Novi didn't contribute anywhere near the $100 million that's been spent out here in the past 15 years to build M-5 and rebuild the Beck and Wixom Road interchanges. I can guarantee you that when the state builds an interchange at 32 Mile, that township didn't contribute more than a drop in the bucket towards the cost of that project.

"While the numbered highways are built and maintained through state and federal funds, most of the paving of the section line roads in Oakland County are paid for by the county. road people."

Not true. Most of those projects are funded with federal funds. As has been repeated 1000 times, Oakland County can't afford to maintain the road network that it has.

[bartock]

By looking at a narrow period from 1992 to 2002, we may therefore say that it was not racism that make white suburban residents turn their backs on the city. We may show instead how white suburban residents have turned their backs on not just the city, but anyplace with black residents. Frank Rizzo was telling me about this. He said, "You know, Southfield used to be a great place. South Warren too. But now I'm worried about the crime and the schools in those places. The property values are going south there now, and the sort of family-friendly community I remember isn't there anymore. Heck, that's OK. I figure I-696 was the new Eight Mile."

And after two beers, Frank told me: "If those animals want to destroy Southfield too, that's fine. I'll just keep moving north until my only black neighbors are bears."

Only in your world does 20 years and nearly 500,000 people flooding out of a place constitute a "narrow period". To those who believe that looking at the last 20 years ignores the past 60, I absolutely disagree. The past 60 years is a blue print and a lesson and all that going forward, but I'll loosely compare the last 20 years to The Lorax, after most of the truffala trees were cut down. You need to get more trees growing again before figuring out how to avoid cutting them down.

I-696 is the new 8 Mile? Geoffrey Fieger said that while trying to get Detroit and inner-core votes when he stumped for governor eons ago. It's an old bit.

I don't know who these folks are that your are referring to. Of course, you'd deadpan "of course you do," with a winky-smiley, to the delight of those who read your positions without questioning the source because they've talked to some people who say racist things and they've seen Grand Torino.

Hamtramck, which was 90 percent homogenous at one point, but is hardly that anymore, is seen as diverse, hip, cool, neat, etc. Harper Woods, for example, which was 90 percent homogenous at one point, but is hardly that anymore, is the product of racism. Uh, OK, got it. Oh yeah, and all the compliments about Southfield here is just more disguised racism. And how dare someone comment on increasing crime in an area if there is increasing crime in an area. According to this Frank Rizzo thing, observing such changes is a sign of harboring some serious racism. And boy those Frank Rizzos in Hamtramck are a sure hoot, not sure I'd want to have a beer with any of them. Most of the folks I know spend about five minutes on this stuff and then talk sports. But then again, maybe I just keep poor and ignorant company. The delivery IS always entertaining, in spite of the content.

YOU say that all of this is due to racism...of course you do, and I respect your consistency on that. I believe that people with the means will always have more options with respect to where they live...I'd imagine if this were "Manhattan Yes!" you'd have more of the same racial things to say about Harlem, even though the island is all urbanized. It isn't really always about race all the time, but to suggest that most people simply want to live in low crime areas with good schools will always summon the racial boogeyman talk and just isn't a very popular opinion around here.