Detroit Council proposing drastic cuts to various city services

**Kevgoblue** · February-02-12, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I'm going to assume if you're not one of the council members, you work [[paid) directly under one of them.

Because you sure are going to great lengths to defend them.

Not to say that Detroit has had the best or most effective representation for the last "X" number of years...but is that the issue?
Detroit is not broke because Charles Pugh, Kwame Kenyatta or JoAnn Watson is an assclown, rather because the city has been hemorrhaging people and revenue for 50 years. Kwame awarding contracts to Bobby Ferguson to tear down houses doesn't mean the money wouldn't have been spent had Adamo Construction been awarded the work instead.

Seems like everyone just wants to point fingers at officials that they don't like or don't feel are competant as if that person is at the heart of Detroit's problem. News Flash! It doesn't matter who was elected as mayor or city council. It wouldn't have resulted in a surge of working, educated, tax paying residents leaving the suburbs to return to the city. Detroit would still be looking at filing bankruptcy.

Buy American · February-02-12, 11:41 AM

I think it's a big part of the issue Detroit is facing today. Had there not been a "pay to play" and a "family and friends" mentality in the Mayor's office, things may have run much smoother and the taxpayers would have had incentives to stay in Detroit. Bobby Ferguson received contracts from Detroit and didn't fulfill them, another company would have honored their contract and done the work. Bobby Ferguson pocketed much of the money that was paid by Detroit, another company would have been on the up and up.

It's not hard to point fingers at members of council [[I'll refrain from saying clowncil) when you have so many losers sitting at that table. Some of them I do respect because they have been very businesslike in their actions and when they are on camera...but others are buffoons.

In my opinion, had Detroit run an honest government in the past 10 years, things would be quite different today. Unfortunately, with the raping and pillaging of taxpayers, the corrupt administrators, appointees and some employees, Detroit has turned into something less than a desirable place to live.

**Novine** · February-02-12, 01:16 PM

Even when Dennis Archer was running things in Detroit, the city still lost population during a time when the population of the region and state was growing.

http://www.somacon.com/p469.php

Buy American · February-02-12, 01:35 PM

^^^Archer was doing his best to run Detroit properly but he soon saw that he was fighting a losing battle.

**jt1** · February-02-12, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

^^^Archer was doing his best to run Detroit properly but he soon saw that he was fighting a losing battle.

So Archer failed since he was fighting a losing battle but other failed because they were incompetent or corrupt.

Got it, glad to see consistency in your message.

Buy American · February-02-12, 02:01 PM

Let me be perfectly honest. I knew Dennis Archer. He was a good, honest man. His problem was he was too white for Detroit and that didn't go well with some council members.

I reiterate....you can read into my posts whatever you want, or better yet, you can stop reading them.

**drjeff** · February-02-12, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

So Archer failed since he was fighting a losing battle but other failed because they were incompetent or corrupt.

Got it, glad to see consistency in your message.

How many members of the last city council do you honestly think had the education and background to be qualified for their positions?

How about the current city council?

**jt1** · February-02-12, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

Let me be perfectly honest. I knew Dennis Archer. He was a good, honest man. His problem was he was too white for Detroit and that didn't go well with some council members.

I reiterate....you can read into my posts whatever you want, or better yet, you can stop reading them.

I like to address your posts because of the hypocrisy in them. You still have not addressed any specific questions about what DPD or DFD could do to become more efficient with the dollars they have.

I enjoy reading your posts because it just reinforces your lack of understanding of the root causes of what has happended in the city over the last 60 years.

Was Dennis Archer being 'too white' the reason why he destroyed the business district along the river? I agree that he was faced with an incompetent and foolish council but I would like specific examples of him 'being too white' that caused him to be ineffective.

**jt1** · February-02-12, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by drjeff

How many members of the last city council do you honestly think had the education and background to be qualified for their positions?

How about the current city council?

Where did I state that the last or current council was qualified. I have been pretty consistent in my statements that they are not doing a good job. I however temper that with the fact that the current situation in the city is due to a number of things beyond just city council.

I'm curious what education and background you believe are needed to be qualified for the position. We have ineffective leadership in Lansing and Washington but most of them are 'educated'.

So I will respond to your question with some direct question:

1. Ignoring city council do you believe that there are a significant number of other players that have been involved in the city's demise? If so, who.
2. Do you think that the real root of the city's issues are poor planning and decision making that goes back to the 50s? If so, was it federal, state, local level or a combination of the three.
3. Do you think that the unions whether the necessary ones [[like PD and FD) or the worthless ones like AFCSME [[worthless in my opinion) have contributed to the decline of the city.
4. Do you think bitching about city council and their budget is akin to people claiming that potholes were Hiroshima's biggest issues on August 7, 1945.

Because, ultimately BA and others like him are pretty consistent with their message that if it were not for city council, Coleman Young and Kwame that this city would still be considered a world class city. I think the problems and the blame are much, much broader than that and focusing solely on city council is ignorant.

**jt1** · February-02-12, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by drjeff

How many members of the last city council do you honestly think had the education and background to be qualified for their positions?

How about the current city council?

Since you asked I did a quick check on education, which you asked about. I don't believe that education alone results in strong leadership or coorelates to integrity but you asked about education so without further ado:

Of the 9 council members:

4 have a bachelors [[although Cockrel also has completed MSU - Political Leadership Program & Harvard's JFK School of Gov't - Program for State and Local Government Officials)
3 have a masters degree
2 do not have any degrees listed [[although one of the two did rise to the role of deputy chief of police)

Effective and strong leaders? I don't believe so. Educated as an entity? I would certainly say so.

**iheartthed** · February-02-12, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Where did I state that the last or current council was qualified. I have been pretty consistent in my statements that they are not doing a good job. I however temper that with the fact that the current situation in the city is due to a number of things beyond just city council.

I'm curious what education and background you believe are needed to be qualified for the position. We have ineffective leadership in Lansing and Washington but most of them are 'educated'.

So I will respond to your question with some direct question:

1. Ignoring city council do you believe that there are a significant number of other players that have been involved in the city's demise? If so, who.
2. Do you think that the real root of the city's issues are poor planning and decision making that goes back to the 50s? If so, was it federal, state, local level or a combination of the three.
3. Do you think that the unions whether the necessary ones [[like PD and FD) or the worthless ones like AFCSME [[worthless in my opinion) have contributed to the decline of the city.
4. Do you think bitching about city council and their budget is akin to people claiming that potholes were Hiroshima's biggest issues on August 7, 1945.

Because, ultimately BA and others like him are pretty consistent with their message that if it were not for city council, Coleman Young and Kwame that this city would still be considered a world class city. I think the problems and the blame are much, much broader than that and focusing solely on city council is ignorant.

:::slow clap:::

Btw, since when did a college degree become a requirement to be elected to public office?

**jt1** · February-02-12, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Btw, since when did a college degree become a requirement to be elected to public office?

When it is convenient for an argument. Having to chose one or the other, I'll take integrity over education anyday. The executives of Enron were extremely educated.

**drjeff** · February-02-12, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

:::slow clap:::

Btw, since when did a college degree become a requirement to be elected to public office?

It would certainly be a requirement to get my vote.

**stasu1213** · February-02-12, 06:12 PM

Good ole common sense could run this city better than book knowledge and so called "credentials" Elected officials who had degrees didn't major in the field of the position which they hold.

**mam2009** · February-02-12, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by mam2009 Ditto! And how about we refrain from hurling insults at the legislative BODY [[i.e. ”morons”, ”Clowncil”, etc.) when they are doing their job [[as a body) of representing the people of Detroit. Harper Woods laid off 17 workers this morning. Is the HW City Council ”morons” and a ”Clowncil”?

Originally Posted by 313WX

I'm going to assume if you're not one of the council members, you work [[paid) directly under one of them.

Because you sure are going to great lengths to defend them.

I knew that one was coming. It always does. I have said before in previous posts that I did work for a Council member who is no longer on the Council. I also majored in Political Science with a concentration in state and local government. So yes, I have a heightened interest in the local political process. However, my plea is less a defense of the Council, and more a desire for civility & use of common sense. There's no need for the name-calling. And as most of us SHOULD know by now -- you can't believe everything you see on TV. Either seek your own answers or stop assuming you know the whole story when you clearly don't.

**JBMcB** · February-02-12, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Good ole common sense could run this city better than book knowledge and so called "credentials"

I'd say a degree in accounting could work wonders.

**mam2009** · February-02-12, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

It's not hard to point fingers at members of council [[I'll refrain from saying clowncil) when you have so many losers sitting at that table. Some of them I do respect because they have been very businesslike in their actions and when they are on camera...but others are buffoons.

Thank you, Buy American.

**Hypestyles** · February-02-12, 11:45 PM

supposedly these union concessions have been made and city gov't promises to be more aggressive in obtaining due money from other parties-- http://www.freep.com/article/2012020...yssey=nav|head

**coracle** · February-03-12, 06:33 AM

Whatever the educational status of the Council members is or has been, there is one dominant feature of Detroit's 50 year decline; it's been run by Democrats.

**GoGrixdale** · February-03-12, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

Whatever the educational status of the Council members is or has been, there is one dominant feature of Detroit's 50 year decline; it's been run by Democrats.

When is the last time a there was Republican or Libertarian leaning candidate with the balls to officially add their voice to the Detroit discourse? Do you think that our rebublican governor was elected with no support in Detroit?

My agreement with you would be phrased differently...

"..there is one dominant feature of Detroit's 50 year decline; it's been viscerally shunned by republicans.

**coracle** · February-03-12, 08:42 AM

So you're saying GoGlixdale that we can't blame the Democrats for orchestrating the decline of Detroit over the last 50 years because Republicans and Libertarians [[with or without balls) didn't stop them. What a novel attempt to deflect blame.

**mam2009** · February-03-12, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

So you're saying GoGlixdale that we can't just blame the Democrats for orchestrating the decline of Detroit over the last 50 years because Republicans and Libertarians [[with or without balls) let them do it. What a novel attempt to deflect blame.

Check your history. Detroit's population reached its height in 1950. The two Mayors in the 1950's were Republicans. Between 1950 & 1960 Detroit's population declined by 12% while the population of the metropolitan area and the region GREW. Incidentally, one of those Republican mayors [[Mariani) was convicted in 1969 of tax evasion. My point is that Detroit's decline began before Democrats [[& Blacks) were in power so let's focus on the REAL issue. The REAL reasons why Detroit's decline began. You cannot ignore the impact of urban sprawl, urban disinvestment policies-- and, yes, racism & classism. Why did that first 12% leave Detroit between 1950 & 1960???

**313WX** · February-03-12, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by mam2009

Check your history. Detroit's population reached its height in 1950. The two Mayors in the 1950's were Republicans. Between 1950 & 1960 Detroit's population declined by 12% while the population of the metropolitan area and the region GREW. Incidentally, one of those Republican mayors [[Mariani) was convicted in 1969 of tax evasion. My point is that Detroit's decline began before Democrats [[& Blacks) were in power so let's focus on the REAL issue. The REAL reasons why Detroit's decline began. You cannot ignore the impact of urban sprawl, urban disinvestment policies-- and, yes, racism & classism. Why did that first 12% leave Detroit between 1950 & 1960???

I agree with you here.

We also can't ignore the fact that Detroit's decline was ultimately accelerated by Republican policies at the National level, between their "strong defense" National Highway Act and their "free trade" NAFTA, CAFTA and TPP.

And I'm also certain Michigan's homophobic view on the gay community is helping to hold down Detroit's comeback as well [[who tend to thrive in urban environment, and even tend to revive them in their own way).

**313WX** · February-03-12, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by GoGrixdale

Do you think that our rebublican governor was elected with no support in Detroit?

I want to say the turnout for the gubernatorial election was around 10%, I'm not sure. But if anything, that's probably the reason Virg Benero DID NOT win [[not enough Detroiters voted).

That's not to say Snyder didn't have the support of ANYONE in Detroit, but it was probably only very few voters in the entire city.

**GoGrixdale** · February-03-12, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

So you're saying GoGlixdale that we can't just blame the Democrats for orchestrating the decline of Detroit over the last 50 years because Republicans and Libertarians [[with or without balls) let them do it. What a novel attempt to deflect blame.

You're correct.

We cant blame JUST Democrats or Kwame or Young, Miriani, Mahaffey or Pugh.

I'm saying that the conservative leaning parties have given up trying to practice politics in Detroit. Avoidance or rejection is [has been] their prevailing lean when it comes to the city.My view? That's an absence of a balls to try.

Single sets of ideas, especially in a legislative setting, are never good.

Tying in to the prevailing topic of this thread- I would be thrilled to see a Republican run for city council. I think it would have been nice if some of these cuts were made 5-10-20 years ago and Republicans tend to do that.

...i'm rational most days.