Detroit Council proposing drastic cuts to various city services

[jt1]

And why DID you "feel the need to respond", Buy American? If you don't live here, why all the angst?

The angst is because his precious pension may be impacted. He could not care less about the people living in the city of Detroit, just his pension and the pay of Firefighters and Police Officers.

If it came to helping a current resident or one penny of his pension his choice would be very, very obvious.

[jt1]

The clowncil is of the opinion that they own Detroit and that any outsider [[Lansing or a suburb) doesn't have a "right" to come in and take over. It's all about race [[especially when you listen to JoAnn Watson) talk about "giving up her seat on the bus"..."we want to manage our own business"...she claims she was a target of a smear campaign when it was made public that she only paid $68/yr. in taxes on her home. "whatever I was billed, I paid" was her reply, knowing all along that she was screwing HER city out of taxes. "we will not give up the city", code word "we".

The clowncil has the perks that should be eliminated and they constantly refuse and keep asking the general city employees, police/fire, to give up their wages and their health care. Something is wrong with this picture. Detroit isn't owned by the clowncil, Detroit isn't owned by a group, everyone in Michigan has a stake in what happens there.

This council needs to lead by example and they are not doing that.

Yet you ignore what the state did to DPS when they tookover. The district went from financially stable and having poor grades to worse grades and hundreds of millions in debt. So you'll have to fogive some of us that are a little concerned about the integrity of the state running anything.

Add in that the city council can not negate the city charter and will of the populace [[which I often disagree with) and it is akin to choosing who will kick your ass or having someone kick your ass then go after your family and home with no ramifications to them.

At least if an EM comes in I can laugh at you while your pension continues to dwindle. Then you'll really have a reason to be angry.

Agreed however that Watson is a fool and Council needs to lead by example.

[Buy American]

I have never said that I wanted an EM in Detroit, I do care about my pension, wouldn't you? If you say it wouldn't matter to you then I'd say you're a liar. What angers me is people like yourself who would rather make excuses for those people sitting in their plush offices in the CAY building, behind their mahogany desk, spending taxpayer money foolishly and then turning around and asking ALL city employees to take drastic cuts while they do nothing to help the situation. Police/Fire are important to me because without those employees in Detroit, what the hell would you do? Sequester yourself in your homes with bars on the windows [[which I'm sure are already there), and hope you don't have a fire or a health emergency or have a home invasion and no one comes?

Incidentally, our pension is protected by the Federal Government and can't be touched. However, it's crooks like Monica Conyers, thug KK, and others who have put their fingers into the pot and used some of the monies for their own personal use. I also was smart and have a backup plan that I started many years ago so don't presume to know me jt1...you don't. You need to put your anger toward me to better use, like voting the right people in office next time, if there are any honest, upstanding, people with integrity left in Detroit politics.

[jt1]

I have never said that I wanted an EM in Detroit, I do care about my
pension, wouldn't you? If you say it wouldn't matter to you then I'd say you're
a liar.

If I had a pension it would matter to me. I think the bigger issue is that your only concern is about your pension and the PD/FD. It is clear from your posting that you have zero concern for the well being of the citizens.

Wh

at angers me is people like yourself who would rather make excuses for those people sitting in their plush offices in the CAY building, behind their mahogany desk, spending taxpayer money foolishly and then turning around and asking ALL city employees to take drastic cuts while they do nothing to help the situation.

I have never made an excuse for them or their poor performance. I am stating that the state taking over is a larger evil than the incompetence of the city. Ideally we would have competent people at the CAY. I think that ALL city employees do need to take cuts, that imclude the mayor, council, appointees, white collar, blue collar, etc. Unlike you I think that both sides of the argument [[union and non union) can fairly be villified. You paint one side as perfect and the other as horrible. Let's be honest , both have played a critical role in this debacle.

Police/Fire are important to me because without those employees in
Detroit, what the hell would you do? Sequester yourself in your homes with bars
on the windows [[which I'm sure are already there), and hope you don't have a
fire or a health emergency or have a home invasion and no one comes?

First, I do not have bars on my home but that just supports my point of how you view the city and residents. I believe that PD and FD are critical functions for a city to manage. I do however take exception with the fact that PD and FD have often taken an us vs. them mentality and do not adapt to make their functions more efficient and do things like protect PD officers that decide to all call in sick at once. PD could also move all officers on the street and re-assign many functions to non-sworn in officers like pretty much every other city in the country.
Again, critical functions but their leadership have been unwilling to bend and have contributed to the dire straits in the city.

Incidentally, our pension is protected by the Federal Government and can't be touched. However, it's crooks like Monica Conyers, thug KK, and others who have put their fingers into the pot and used some of the monies for their own personal use.

You should be pissed at members that voted in people like Conyers to the pension board. KK and Conyers are corrupt and should rot in jail but the existing members of the PD and FD vote on the pension board. DO you ever critique them for voting in the fools and crooks that manage the pension or is it only the politicians that are at fault?

I also was smart and have a backup plan that I started many years ago so
don't presume to know me jt1...you don't.

Yet you presume to know me and whether or not I have bars on my windows and who I voted for. Thanks for pointing out your hypocrisy.....again.

You need to put your anger toward me to better use, like voting the right people in office next time, if there are any honest, upstanding, people with integrity left in Detroit politics.

Oooh, more presuming to know me. I find it intersting that you insist my 'anger' should be directed towards better causes. Every post of your drips with anger. I'm curious, have you championed any causes to help Detroit, supported any politicians that you like, volunteered for any causes in the city, worked on campaigs for those that want to be on the pension board, etc, etc. I would suspect that you are doing a ton of this since you have a significant amount of anger in each and every post. But it couldn't be that you are just being hypocritical now could it.

[Buy American]

If I had a pension it would matter to me. I think the bigger issue is that your only concern is about your pension and the PD/FD. It is clear from your posting that you have zero concern for the well being of the citizens.

Wh

I have never made an excuse for them or their poor performance. I am stating that the state taking over is a larger evil than the incompetence of the city. Ideally we would have competent people at the CAY. I think that ALL city employees do need to take cuts, that imclude the mayor, council, appointees, white collar, blue collar, etc. Unlike you I think that both sides of the argument [[union and non union) can fairly be villified. You paint one side as perfect and the other as horrible. Let's be honest , both have played a critical role in this debacle.



First, I do not have bars on my home but that just supports my point of how you view the city and residents. I believe that PD and FD are critical functions for a city to manage. I do however take exception with the fact that PD and FD have often taken an us vs. them mentality and do not adapt to make their functions more efficient and do things like protect PD officers that decide to all call in sick at once. PD could also move all officers on the street and re-assign many functions to non-sworn in officers like pretty much every other city in the country.
Again, critical functions but their leadership have been unwilling to bend and have contributed to the dire straits in the city.




You should be pissed at members that voted in people like Conyers to the pension board. KK and Conyers are corrupt and should rot in jail but the existing members of the PD and FD vote on the pension board. DO you ever critique them for voting in the fools and crooks that manage the pension or is it only the politicians that are at fault?



Yet you presume to know me and whether or not I have bars on my windows and who I voted for. Thanks for pointing out your hypocrisy.....again.



Oooh, more presuming to know me. I find it intersting that you insist my 'anger' should be directed towards better causes. Every post of your drips with anger. I'm curious, have you championed any causes to help Detroit, supported any politicians that you like, volunteered for any causes in the city, worked on campaigs for those that want to be on the pension board, etc, etc. I would suspect that you are doing a ton of this since you have a significant amount of anger in each and every post. But it couldn't be that you are just being hypocritical now could it.

You know me too well. Continue to read into my posts whatever you want...or better yet, don't read them.

[coracle]

Its too late how the Detroit City Council can fix on their severe financial problems. They are 20 billion dollars in the hole. They will run out of cash by April 1st and a hostile takeover for Snyder, the nerd's Emergency Manager will close the coffin on Detroit's self government since 1701.

Don't know if your $20,000,000,000 figure is correct but if it is then every one of the 700,000 men women and children in Detroit is in the hole for approx. $30,000. There is no EM that will be capable of getting round that. The Detroit administrations for many years had to know where this was going but they didn't have the personal stature to draw attention to it. It's too late now for an EM. Bankruptcy is the only way.

[GoGrixdale]

Incidentally, our pension is protected by the Federal Government and can't be touched.

...nu uh

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/bu...?_r=1&emc=eta1


Without a union pension my life would be so much worse. My elder uncles and grandmother would be a huge financial burden on me and my cousins. Hell... I wish I had one. I have nothing but respect for those workers blessed to be able to bargan collectively.

That said... I think it's a perfectly sound argument that when plotting a pension course, city leaders and accountants assumed that a significant number of the now 20,000 retirees would stay in detroit and commit a portion of their $25,000 [[avg.) payment to the local economy.

I don't think its unfair to stop the 13th check or to shoulder a small portion of the financial burden the city now faces.

The big grift is over down at CAY. The feds and the economy [[read the feds) have seen to most of that. The council while not competent by most measures are the best perceivably available from this [[at large) environment.

I mean it's not like there were a bunch of well seasoned, 55 year old retirees with municipal experience to choose from in the city.

With all sincerity, would a 1.5% reduction in payments or a 10% increase in additional benefits [[copay,coverage) be a critical blow or just uncomfortable for retirees?

In my perspective: If and when I'm told [[and its we all know it's when) my "this tax" and my "that fee" has to go up slightly....I might grumble but I wouldn't fold.

BA, IYHO would it ruin most retirees?

[Mark Smiles]

Its too late how the Detroit City Council can fix on their severe financial problems. They are 20 billion dollars in the hole. They will run out of cash by April 1st and a hostile takeover for Snyder, the nerd's Emergency Manager will close the coffin on Detroit's self government since 1701.

The city is a creation of the State Government.

[Buy American]

...nu uh

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/bu...?_r=1&emc=eta1


Without a union pension my life would be so much worse. My elder uncles and grandmother would be a huge financial burden on me and my cousins. Hell... I wish I had one. I have nothing but respect for those workers blessed to be able to bargan collectively.

That said... I think it's a perfectly sound argument that when plotting a pension course, city leaders and accountants assumed that a significant number of the now 20,000 retirees would stay in detroit and commit a portion of their $25,000 [[avg.) payment to the local economy.

I don't think its unfair to stop the 13th check or to shoulder a small portion of the financial burden the city now faces.

The big grift is over down at CAY. The feds and the economy [[read the feds) have seen to most of that. The council while not competent by most measures are the best perceivably available from this [[at large) environment.

I mean it's not like there were a bunch of well seasoned, 55 year old retirees with municipal experience to choose from in the city.

With all sincerity, would a 1.5% reduction in payments or a 10% increase in additional benefits [[copay,coverage) be a critical blow or just uncomfortable for retirees?

In my perspective: If and when I'm told [[and its we all know it's when) my "this tax" and my "that fee" has to go up slightly....I might grumble but I wouldn't fold.

BA, IYHO would it ruin most retirees?

Detroit, from the very beginning of my employment with them, offered a pension as a benefit. Had they not done that, I would have found a way to plan for retirement. The city has known for years that pensions were getting more and more unreachable, yet up until last September, a pension was still offered as a job perk to police recruits.

You are probably right about the city leaders and accountants assuming that some retirees would have stayed in Detroit, therefore, the financial problems wouldn't be so large. Personally, I would have loved to stay. My house was paid for, it was big enough for two to enjoy [[kids gone), and it was well maintained. I didn't want to go out and burden myself with more debt all over again, however, we had no choice. The city promised me and many others a safe enviornment to live in, that promise was not kept. I couldn't count on the services that another suburb supplied and kept their taxes down to a reasonable level. Our safety was a number one priority and I was not guaranteed that the drug dealer on the corner or the thug pimping his girls at the park would allow me to live a peaceful life that I worked so hard for.

The 13th check was given to us because the investments were doing well and the City shared that profit with it's employees. I don't mind not receiving it, although it was nice receiving it.

I would not gripe about a 1.5% reduction in payments or a 10% increase in anything and it wouldn't make life miserable for us. What my main peeve is that this council is pretty ballsie asking for all city employees to take these huge cuts while they sit there on their thrones and refuse to cut to the bone their hefty salaries, perks and bonuses. My peeve is the city administration doesn't start cutting the fat at the top, instead of hitting the junior clerk or janitor or dispatcher or police and fire protection. I will say this, the City of Detroit has been good to me. I have received my pension checks regularly, never missed one....but, I worked my a$$ off, risking life and limb FOR Detroit and the citizens of Detroit for 30 years and I will not make apologies for that!

[fryar]

...nu uh

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/bu...?_r=1&emc=eta1

This seems like the crucial passage:

And if a company goes bankrupt, the federal government can take over its pension plan and see that its retirees receive their benefits. Although some retirees receive less than they were promised, no retiree from a federally insured plan in the private sector has come away empty-handed since the federal pension law was enacted in 1974. The law does not cover public sector workers.

What happens if Detroit can no longer pay its pension obligations? Does it fall to the state? Does Michigan guarantee the public-sector pension obligations of its municipalities?

Anyone know?

[Novine]

The state constitution protects public pensions. Like debt payments for bonds that the city issued, the pensions have to be paid even if no one else is getting paid.

[mam2009]

1. I don't live in the city of Detroit, but as Detroit goes, so goes the state. When Detroit fails, it pulls the surrounding communities with it; that's why I care. Plus of course, I love Detroit and don't like to see it fail.

2. You seem to be more upset at someone "bashing" your elected body than you do at the poor job your elected body has done. Do you not see the mess that Detroit is and do you not think that the elected body [[over the years, not just the current crop) is at least partially responsible? Your idea that elected officials deserve your support is odd; they are there to serve and support you, not the other way around.

I didn't say you shouldn't care or even have a say if you don't live here. My entire point was that those who seek to criticize the Council [[the body, not the individuals) should not rely on the media as their sole source of information about what happens during City Council meetings. There are many other ways to get "straight from the horse's mouth" info. And if you can't bother to pick up the phone, watch via internet, etc, then do not spout misinformation about my elected representative body.

I am not trying to defend any individual members. I am, however, supporting the folks who are elected to represent me. I didn't vote for all of those individuals. I don't like all of those individuals. I don't agree with all of those individuals. But at the same time, I pay attention and I don't have a problem e-mailing them, talking to them at community meetings, and watching the sessions for myself. If you don't live here, the very least you can do is give the body the benefit of the doubt when you hear something on tv that sounds too outrageous to be logical. That's when you should seek clarification. Those of us who live here have an incentive to seek clarification so that we know whether we should vote for individual members in the future. Those of you who don't live here should at least cool down your venomous and half-informed assumptions since you haven't taken the time to seek the facts.

I'm not naive. The Council has made decisions I don't agree with, but I will not denegrate the body that represents me. And I would appreciate it if you didn't either.

To Buy American: When you start being as critical of the Fire Dpt union as you are of the City Council, then I would believe that you are not overly biased against the Council.

And I ask again, Buy American, have there been no promotions of City employees since 2008? And don't promotions normally come with a raise? Pugh's staffer was promoted from a position of less responsibility to the position of Chief of Staff. Yes, it is bad judgement, in my opinion, for him to give the guy a higher pay with his elevated title at THIS time. But the bottom line is that Council as a whole HAS proposed to cut their own office budgets AGAIN by 16% for THIS fiscal year after cutting their office budgets at the beginning of THIS fiscal year by 5%. That's a 21% cut for THIS fiscal year. This is the first time that Council has ever cut their budget in the 17 years that the Fiscal Analyst has been with the Council. How do I know that? BECAUSE I ASKED THE FISCAL ANALYST MYSELF. And I heard Ken Cockrel propose just last week that they take an additional 5% cut for NEXT fiscal year. That sounds like leadership to me.

[mam2009]

But you won't get THAT story in the news because it makes this Council look good. This is probably the most responsible Council we've had in years. Stop with the mindless insults and dig a little deeper.

[Kevgoblue]

But you won't get THAT story in the news because it makes this Council look good. This is probably the most responsible Council we've had in years. Stop with the mindless insults and dig a little deeper.

mmam2009. +1

[mam2009]

And why some folks are soooooo focused on the City Council's budget while ignoring the millions of dollars that could be saved [[and made) by running DPD, DFD and the EMS more efficiently is beyond me.
.

[Zacha341]

All of those things need to be addressed. TOGETHER. It's not an either/ or, thing.

And why some folks are soooooo focused on the City Council's budget while ignoring the millions of dollars that could be saved [[and made) by running DPD, DFD and the EMS more efficiently is beyond me.
.

[Buy American]

And why some folks are soooooo focused on the City Council's budget while ignoring the millions of dollars that could be saved [[and made) by running DPD, DFD and the EMS more efficiently is beyond me.
.

Who runs DPD, DFD and EMS??? More appointee flunkies that are running the departments into the ground. I am not just focused on the council's budget, but I am concerned about the way they are doing things. Just who would make the decisions on how to save or make the millions you're speaking of?
Would they save millions by cutting more salaries? Maybe pay a police officer $22,000 a year and make him/her pay for their own benefits while going out to protect and serve. Quite a few firefighers and police officers purchase their own disability insurance now because the chance of injury or death is with them every day they are on the streets of Detroit. How about cutting the firefighters salary down and cutting off their insurance, while they are running into fires while you are running out?

[mam2009]

Who runs DPD, DFD and EMS??? More appointee flunkies that are running the departments into the ground. I am not just focused on the council's budget, but I am concerned about the way they are doing things. Just who would make the decisions on how to save or make the millions you're speaking of?
Would they save millions by cutting more salaries? Maybe pay a police officer $22,000 a year and make him/her pay for their own benefits while going out to protect and serve. Quite a few firefighers and police officers purchase their own disability insurance now because the chance of injury or death is with them every day they are on the streets of Detroit. How about cutting the firefighters salary down and cutting off their insurance, while they are running into fires while you are running out?

The Council makes the budget. They don"t decide how it's spent. When was the last time you posted a suggestion on how money could be saved in DFD? I bet you it's not as recent nor as often as you've insulted my elected representative body. The Council can cut its fat quickly
because they don't have to run every decision by a labor union first. By the way, besides the Commissioner, where does the Fire leadership come from? How many of the Fire leadership are also union? Shouldn't that make it easier for efficiencies to be contemplated and achieved by the leadership? And please notice that I said EFFICIENCIES, not cuts to salaries & benefits.

[mam2009]

...I felt the need to respond just like you felt the need to respond to Ray, you felt he was wrong and I felt you were wrong. The City of Detroit still signs my checks for my pension, so I have every right to feel angry about what goes on there. I feel the same way when people buy foreign automobiles while GM has a big logo on the RenCen and Chrysler has two huge plants on Jefferson....who supports Detroit?

You felt I was wrong about asking that folks base their criticism of my elected representative body on more than what the media feeds them???

Do YOU support Detroit? DO you?

[professorscott]

The late and lamented Frank Zappa had an album title that this thread makes me think of. The cover of the album was a rebus puzzle. Some of you will know what I'm talking about and will understand

[stasu1213]

The Council makes the budget. They don"t decide how it's spent. When was the last time you posted a suggestion on how money could be saved in DFD? I bet you it's not as recent nor as often as you've insulted my elected representative body. The Council can cut its fat quickly
because they don't have to run every decision by a labor union first. By the way, besides the Commissioner, where does the Fire leadership come from? How many of the Fire leadership are also union? Shouldn't that make it easier for efficiencies to be contemplated and achieved by the leadership? And please notice that I said EFFICIENCIES, not cuts to salaries & benefits.

I hope like hell that Pugh doesn't have his way to give his chief of staff[[so called) a raise. You had said that this council is the most responsible. That was a joke, right?

[Dexlin]

I'm as much fo symbolic shared sacrifice as the next guy, but when the rubber hits the road, arguing over council pay and benefits is a sideshow. Period. It's not even close to where the money is. Council's entire budget is literally 1% of the entire general fund, and many times less than that when the entire city budget is factored in. This laser fixation of the councils' pay and benefits is kind of the last refuge of someone without a real argument. It's a massive, rotting red herring.

Does council's office need reform? Probably. It's also something that probably needed to be taken up through the charter. That was the time for that argument. Right now, in the middle of this crisis, arguing over council is an inane parlor discussion, something with almost zero practical benefit and relevance to avoiding a Category 5 fiscal hurricane.

I know it's a very American thing to do and bitch about the pay and benefits of [[insert legislative body), and it makes us feel righteous, and it may very well be a real concern, but it's a lot like bitching about your significant other not fixing your refrigerator while the house is on fire. It serves no practical, relevant purpose in the middle of a crisis.

[mam2009]

Ditto! And how about we refrain from hurling insults at the legislative BODY [[i.e. ”morons”, ”Clowncil”, etc.) when they are doing their job [[as a body) of representing the people of Detroit. Harper Woods laid off 17 workers this morning. Is the HW City Council ”morons” and a ”Clowncil”?

[Zacha341]

"we want to manage our own business"... "we will not give up the city" = Rhetoric at this point.

We lost our ability to manage our "own" business and keep our 'jewels' it can be argued when our leaders [[so appointed and anointed) squandered the city resources and finances for themselves as we looked on. Now Detroit is on life support fiscally. No one was looking towards the future when the tax base [[read piggy bank) would recede. That dwindling tax base was ignored as the 'friends and family' scams and frauds continued, and worse, was justified. Not to mention the amount of debt Detroit is in is worse than initially reported. All of this and more hidden while fraud and corruption ran wild - recall back under the Kilpatrick admin when we could not even get out a audit on the regular....

The clowncil is of the opinion that they own Detroit and that any outsider [[Lansing or a suburb) doesn't have a "right" to come in and take over. It's all about race [[especially when you listen to JoAnn Watson) talk about "giving up her seat on the bus"..."we want to manage our own business"...she claims she was a target of a smear campaign when it was made public that she only paid $68/yr. in taxes on her home. "whatever I was billed, I paid" was her reply, knowing all along that she was screwing HER city out of taxes. "we will not give up the city", code word "we".

[313WX]

Ditto! And how about we refrain from hurling insults at the legislative BODY [[i.e. ”morons”, ”Clowncil”, etc.) when they are doing their job [[as a body) of representing the people of Detroit. Harper Woods laid off 17 workers this morning. Is the HW City Council ”morons” and a ”Clowncil”?

I'm going to assume if you're not one of the council members, you work [[paid) directly under one of them.

Because you sure are going to great lengths to defend them.