Council member considers closing gas stations, restaurants overnight

[SWMAP]

Maybe they already do that - would you know otherwise?

[bailey]

Maybe they already do that - would you know otherwise?

So your argument is what then? The DPD has already identified the problem establishments, has already beefed up patrols in those areas, and has been completely overrun by the criminal element in spite of these measures. As such everyone else should just accept surrender and no business in the city should ever take place after dark?

[SWMAP]

As a civilian, i don't pretend to know what professional measures the DPD needs to take. I admit that I just don't have the expertise. But if they decide that 24 hour gas stations are a particular source of violent confrontations and require earlier closing, I can't say that they are wrong. I can see that the DPD can't just keep driving past every 24 hour gas staion all night long - which seems to be your solution.

[bailey]

As a civilian, i don't pretend to know what professional measures the DPD needs to take. I admit that I just don't have the expertise. But if they decide that 24 hour gas stations are a particular source of violent confrontations and require earlier closing, I can't say that they are wrong. I can see that the DPD can't just keep driving past every 24 hour gas staion all night long - which seems to be your solution.

No, "driving by gas stations all night long" is not my solution. Being a competent police force is my solution. Not scapegoating the victims of crime and actually doing something about the criminals is my solution. Abandoning all efforts at community policing and simply demanding no buisiness take place after dark is not even remotely a solution to the problem and simply illustrates that an EFM can not arrive soon enough.

[iheartthed]

no. its not even remotely unconstitutional. these ordinances are tested under the rational basis test [[the lowest form of constitutional scrutiny). Under the rational basis test, the requirements of equal protection are satisfied when: [[1) the classification bears a reasonable relation to the legislative purpose sought to be affected; [[2) the members of the class are treated alike under similar circumstances and conditions; and, [[3) the classification rests on some reasonable basis.

you can have a debate about whether the various justifications for a 2am bar time [[people might be drunker at 3 or 4 instead of 2am and get into a car...blah blah) are actually "reasonable" but you're never going to win it because the licensing agency or the city can come up with an almost infinite number of rationally based rules that are reasonably related to furthering legitimate government purposes with regard to 2am last call.

What is unconstitutional is telling only Coney Islands [[not all restaurants) and only Gas Stations [[not 24 hr CVSs..etc) they have to close at 11.

Yeah, an example of a municipality that regulates when businesses can and cannot be open is Bergen County, New Jersey, which doesn't allow any retail establishments other than grocery stores and restaurants to be open on Sundays. Bergen County is just on the other side of the Hudson River from New York City and has several upscale malls. [[Did I just break a rule by comparing Detroit to somewhere that isn't Detroit?)

[iheartthed]

But goddamn it, I live here and sometimes I like to eat food late at night. It's not up to Gary Brown to tell me what my "natural waking hours" should be, or when I'm allowed to be hungry in Detroit. If the police department, which I support with my taxes, can't get a handle on nighttime crime, that's their problem, not mine, and I shouldn't have to bear the brunt of it.

This will never happen, but I can see his reasoning on how it could reduce crime. I personally don't like the idea of municipalities regulating the hours of businesses [[including limiting the sale of alcohol), but I realize they do have the authority to do it.

On the other hand, could some of these gas station owners and fast food places be unnecessarily endangering the lives of their workers for a couple dollars? Would the owners themselves man their gas stations and restaurants in high crime areas of Detroit between 11pm and 5am? And for a city that is hemorrhaging population, along with the money to support basic services, might the 24 hour city be a privilege that needs to be given up?

[9mile&seneca]

STRESS was accomplishing it's mission. Then some low IQ a--hole decided "Hey, let's do some home invasions! It's a great way to avoid the boredom of routine police work. As cops, we're not bound by that stupid old constitution." That is where we left reality.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I am almost enraged by this proposal, and for 3 distinct reasons.

1) I am attempting to open a restaurant in Detroit. I will never open one with a mandated closing time of 11pm. Small businesses need flexibility, including hours of operation, in order to be able to be profitable.

2) This will not deter crime! It will move it to other places and times! Or unattended businesses will be broken into. Hey, there are shootings in schools. Keeping all the kids home 8am-3pm will certainly reduce violence in schools.

3) As stated by others in this thread: this very idea is so defeatist!

[9mile&seneca]

"Keeping all the kids home 8am-3pm will certainly reduce violence in schools." Hey, I got no problemo with ending the babysitting service. Buy 'em a computer and let the chips fall where they may.

[Mark Smiles]

Isn't that a picture of the Malice Green memorial that pops up in the banner on the top of this web site?


Does the Green memorial signal to the police, be firm we got your back?

[old guy]

What about tourists visiting the city, not realizing that all gas stations in a large metropolitan area close at 11pm? Driving around downtown at 11:30 looking for an open gas station and run out of gas. Could be a rude awakening for someone not familiar with the city.

[ResurgetCineribus]

As a civilian, i don't pretend to know what professional measures the DPD needs to take. I admit that I just don't have the expertise. But if they decide that 24 hour gas stations are a particular source of violent confrontations and require earlier closing, I can't say that they are wrong. I can see that the DPD can't just keep driving past every 24 hour gas staion all night long - which seems to be your solution.

Except 24 hour gas stations are not the source of violent crime, they are only the target.

[KJ5]

So what happens to somebody who runs out of gas in Detroit in the middle of the night? Is this proposed law going to make them safer??

[Ravine]

So what happens to somebody who runs out of gas in Detroit in the middle of the night? Is this proposed law going to make them safer??

No, it won't. Anyone who goes driving around, in the middle of the night in Detroit, with a near-empty tank is likely to find other means by which to put their safety at hazard. Keeping them out of danger could be a daunting task.

[CLAUDE G]

I'll vote for this, at the same time lets close the Casino's between 11PM and 5AM.

[kraig]

Hi, this is the City of Detroit and I would like to deliver this important Public Service Announcement.

FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, PLEASE STAY THE FUCK OUT.

[R8RBOB]

When will Gary Brown announce that he is following Charles Pugh out the door in 2013? Someone earlier posted that this would announce that the criminals have won and they are right. Brown is saying that Detroit is incapable of protecting its citizens so we have to force businesses to close early so Detroiters won't be in harms way. Pathetic.

[Zacha341]

Yeah consider that. I'm trying to make it more of a habit to not let my tank go below a quarter low and I get my gas outside of the Detroit now for the most part.

No, it won't. Anyone who goes driving around, in the middle of the night in Detroit, with a near-empty tank is likely to find other means by which to put their safety at hazard. Keeping them out of danger could be a daunting task.

[Zacha341]

That'll never happen, those things run just short of a fire happening on the actual premises!!

Casinos by definition are an entity unto their own withstanding what mayhem and murder may being going on around them out on the sidewalk, until the last penny is spent; until the last bit of wattage pulses thru a slot machine.

I'll vote for this, at the same time lets close the Casino's between 11PM and 5AM.

[hhockey]

Well this is just another case of a council member loosing whats left of his mind. What great fodder for news reports across the country. Detroit closes down at night because of crime,no police to enforce the laws. What an act of stupidity. That aside we are forgetting that his proposal not only makes Detroit look stupid, it is putting people out of work that badly need that job. Why else would they work a midnight shift at a gas station or restaurant?

[Thames]

Yeah, an example of a municipality that regulates when businesses can and cannot be open is Bergen County, New Jersey, which doesn't allow any retail establishments other than grocery stores and restaurants to be open on Sundays. Bergen County is just on the other side of the Hudson River from New York City and has several upscale malls. [[Did I just break a rule by comparing Detroit to somewhere that isn't Detroit?)

Do they close the retail establishments on Sundays due to high crime?

No? Then there is no comparison and not even worth mentioning.

If the answer is yes, then sure, the comparison is valid.

[Thames]

Just the idea of implementing a "curfew" for businesses in Detroit proves that crime has brought the City of Detroit to an absolute stand still.

The bad guys will just commit their crimes against people before 11:00 pm.

After the stores close, they'll turn to smash and grabs and everybody knows that DPD doesn't respond to property crimes.

[bailey]

Yeah, an example of a municipality that regulates when businesses can and cannot be open is Bergen County, New Jersey, which doesn't allow any retail establishments other than grocery stores and restaurants to be open on Sundays. Bergen County is just on the other side of the Hudson River from New York City and has several upscale malls. [[Did I just break a rule by comparing Detroit to somewhere that isn't Detroit?)

Of course the difference there is that Bergen county's closure laws are Blue Laws and some of the most harsh examples of religious fundamentalism run amok in the entire country. Those that complain about creeping Sharia law always seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the Christianist version that is already alive and well.

However the big difference is that Blue laws are miles apart from simply surrending Detroit to criminals at night....which is what he Detroit City Council proposed.

[iheartthed]

Of course the difference there is that Bergen county's closure laws are Blue Laws and some of the most harsh examples of religious fundamentalism run amok in the entire country. Those that complain about creeping Sharia law always seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the Christianist version that is already alive and well.

However the big difference is that Blue laws are miles apart from simply surrending Detroit to criminals at night....which is what he Detroit City Council proposed.

Well, it originally started as a Blue Law, but now is part tradition and part means of controlling traffic congestion in that area [[that ironically is probably somewhat induced by the blue law):

http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/com...for-new-jersey

[Bham1982]

Of course the difference there is that Bergen county's closure laws are Blue Laws and some of the most harsh examples of religious fundamentalism run amok in the entire country. Those that complain about creeping Sharia law always seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the Christianist version that is already alive and well.

It has nothing to do with Blue Laws and Christian fundamentalism. Bergen County is a liberal NJ county, and one of the most Jewish counties in the U.S. It's just over the Hudson from Manhattan and the Bronx.

Bergen County has no Sunday retail because they are the biggest suburban retail center [[per capita) in the U.S., with a massive number of malls and big box, especially in Paramus, NJ. They have four of the largest malls in the state, all concentrated in a few square miles.

Because they were getting overrun with traffic and congestion, they decided to keep Sunday commerce-free, so they could move about easily one day a week.