Walkability in Various Cities

**313WX** · January-09-12, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Talk about making generalizations... when was the last time you've even visited SCS? Did you know that there are over 1,000 homes with waterfront access via canals and the lake... 6 miles of lakefront with restaurants along the Nautical Mile... and the zoo... guess what... it doesn't belong to Royal Oak... and it's only 10 minutes [[I-696) from SCS. So that's a moot point. I will say that Main Street and Woodward are nice, but there's a nice collection of restaurants along the waterfront.

And for every nice subdivision in Royal Oak you can mention [[I know that Vinsetta and Sunset Blvd. are the best)... there's likely an equal number of very nice homes within 1/4 mile of the lake. Some in the high 6 digits.

It's supply and demand that drives cost of living. If people don't demand it and it's in high supply then the cost for it will be low. Low-density shoreline is a dime a dozen in Michigan. Now St. Clair Shores has an equivalent of the Gold Coast in Michigan, or once St. Clair Shores are housing that's architecturally significant like in Grosse Pointe, then maybe you'll have an argument.

That said, Royal Oak is one of the very few TRUE downtown areas in the region. People want to be a part of the action there because it's something new and unique in this state. Since it's in limited supply and urban environment is the trendy thing, people will pay more to live there.

**krapug1** · January-09-12, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Yes, actually.That said, even look at it on a macro scale. New York and San Francisco have a very high cost of living, while cities such as Detroit and Cleveland have a cost of living which is at rock bottom by comparison.

Boston has an overall score of 97, and like NYC and San Fran has an "off the charts" cost of living. Boston also scored 100 for public transit.

Promoting "walkability" in areas like downtown, coupled with more realistic costs of living,
can serve as a draw, as long as you have amenities to walk to.

Ken

**coracle** · January-09-12, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by 9mile&seneca

The general rule of thumb is: the lower the property value, the more walkability. As soon as Mr and Mrs boojie are flush, they imagine themselves English nobility. They require vast expases of grass, no sidewalks, and five miles to the nearest watering hole. That's why, after the DUI's, Mr Boojie white guy has to sell his little mini farm that only produced grass to begin with, and move to a more "walkable" neighborhood.

Why the demeaning racist remarks against "white guy" and "English"? How do you know "...they imagine themselves English nobility" and "...require vast expanses of grass"? How much "grass" do you have?

**313WX** · January-09-12, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by rjk

Speaking of RO, I was in downtown RO on Saturday morning and almost got run over three times by cars making turns. This was at 10:00am when there weren't many people/cars. It wasn't the first time I've experienced this problem.

It's dangerous being a pedestrian almost anywhere. Some people act like waiting 2-3 seconds for someone to cross the street in front of them is going to ruin their day.

.

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Oh my god! [[lengthy rant possibly coming)

I drove down Main Street twice one day. The first time it was alright because it was like 1:30-2 o clock and traffic was light. I saw a pedestrian about to pass so I stop before the intersection which is exactly what you're supposed to do.

I pass by again around 6 or 7 and it's like...in reality I don't get too angry driving, but it was annoying as I don't know what. There's a car in front of me and he wants to make a left. There's traffic coming from the other direction and it seemed like a long constant stream. There's a pedestrian on the corner to my left waiting to cross. I was almost worried for her as she took a chance and tried to cross the street.

A car finally stops, but this is what annoyed the hell out of me. The car stops in the MIDDLE of the intersection. So the guy in front of me is still sitting there waiting to make a left, and I can't get over because I'm already too close to the guy and the traffic in the next lane over was flowing in a long constant stream as well.

I think I had time to get out and go into Borders by the time someone finally stopped BEFORE the intersection and gave the guy in front of me a chance to finally make a left [[and another pedestrian to safely cross the intersection). The whole time I was sitting there, I was just thinking that it's more effective to have stop signs on all four corners or put in street lights. Especially for a rush hour scenario like that. People don't seem to know how to treat those intersections when it says "Yield to pedestrians".

I drove through downtown Birmingham and this problem didn't seem as apparent probably due to how differently traffic flows through there. But even on major mile road intersections [[like 14 Mile and Ryan or something), traffic seems to have no problem when it comes to pedestrians and crossing the street. It probably would have something to do with the drivers having less to visually focus their attention on [[or because they spend more time at each intersection) but you'd think that seeing less pedestrians in a certain area would make them more likely to not be noticed. It doesn't seem to be the case.

/rant

A huge part of the reason for this is because the people in Michigan, in the last 40-50 years, have had no experience driving in an urban environments. They're only used to driving down streets surrounded by subdivisions and parking lots at 45-50 MPH.

That said, normally those type of intersections are supposed to have traffic signals if there's a high volume of pedestrians, or at the very least crosswalk signals.

**Gistok** · January-09-12, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

It's supply and demand that drives cost of living. If people don't demand it and it's in high supply then the cost for it will be low. Low-density shoreline is a dime a dozen in Michigan. Now St. Clair Shores has an equivalent of the Gold Coast in Michigan, or once St. Clair Shores are housing that's architecturally significant like in Grosse Pointe, then maybe you'll have an argument.

That said, Royal Oak is one of the very few TRUE downtown areas in the region. People want to be a part of the action there because it's something new and unique in this state. Since it's in limited supply and urban environment is the trendy thing, people will pay more to live there.

Well we can argue until the cows come home over this... but until the bottom dropped out of the housing market there was going to be a 33 story and 27 story condo tower planned for the Nautical Mile... to augment the existing 30 story apartment tower at 9 Mile/Jefferson. It was going to be marketed to Grosse Pointe empty nesters. The proximity to the Grosse Pointes is also a draw to SCS. However you are correct about the higher density in Royal Oak, and the Main Street downtown is more vibrant. SCS is a quieter community in the non-summer months.

**iheartthed** · January-09-12, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

but until the bottom dropped out of the housing market there was going to be a 33 story and 27 story condo tower planned for the Nautical Mile... to augment the existing 30 story apartment tower at 9 Mile/Jefferson.

No wonder the bottom dropped out.

**Parkguy** · January-09-12, 04:40 PM

Michigan is #10 in the number of pedestrian deaths, and it looks like that number will be slightly higher in the most recent numbers. http://www.ghsa.org/html/publication...tlight_ped.pdf

The Detroit/Warren/Livonia urban area ranks number 12.
http://t4america.org/resources/dange.../worst-metros/

I heard on Freakonomics radio a few days ago that about 45% of pedestrian fatalities are caused by "Drunk Walking." No joke. People apparently avoid driving after drinking and walk home drunk, because they know they're not supposed to drink and drive.

Accoring to the map on the second site above, there have been six pedestrian fatalities in the Grandmont-Rosedale area since 1999. Four of the six were on Grand River. Maybe we'll see that number go down slowly, since Michigan and Detroit both adopted "Complete Streets" rules last year. Should I hold my breath?

**mtburb** · January-09-12, 04:58 PM

According to that site, the three most-walkable places in Michigan are all in Metro Detroit, one a Detroit enclave and the other two part of the northern suburbs: Hamtramck, Ferndale and Madison Heights! The state has an average walk score of 46.

**iheartthed** · January-09-12, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Parkguy

The Detroit/Warren/Livonia urban area ranks number 12.
http://t4america.org/resources/dange.../worst-metros/

Pretty interesting inverse correlation between rate of pedestrian fatalities and % of people who walk to work. Seeing Atlanta right above Detroit reminds me of that story about the mother down there who was convicted of manslaughter when her son died from being hit by a car. She wasn't convicted because she was driving the car that hit him though.

The kid was hit and killed by a drunk driver* who only got six months. She was convicted because the bus stop where she had just gotten off the bus was 1/4th of a mile from the nearest crosswalk, so instead of walking a half mile out of her way -- with three kids -- she cut across the street. But her son gets hit by a drunk driver while crossing the street and she gets charged with his death.

If you ask me the person who designed such a system is just as much an accomplice in the kids death as the mother... and perhaps the drunk driver.

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/pedestr...r-1014879.html

*Not only drunk but on pain medication AND partially blind.