I-94 Expansion Project [[Roadway to Detroit's Future)

**Detroitnerd** · January-09-12, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Jefferson was really more of a radial route from downtown. Fort and Kercheval were connected as a crosstown route running through downtown. The main crosstown line was the Warren line and was called "Crosstown". The other cross town line was the Charlevoix line.

The heavily-used Baker route was a bit of an odd duck making a long north-south jog on its way from Van Dyke and Nevada to the Ford Rouge plant. The track was so bad on the Baker line that they couldn't run the PCC cars because they would damage their wheel casings where the track dipped but the pavement didn't. The Baker line used the old Peter Witts up until conversion to motor bus in 1952

None of the streetcar lines served the purpose of the Davison Expressway.

The Davison is still the quickest way from the east side to the west side. It's true. Although, I'm not quite sure why folks from Hamtramck want to go to Dexter-Davison.

Anyway, just because Detroit never had a good system of crosstown mass transit doesn't mean it can't. If we can bulldoze a block here or there to put join Myrtle to Woodward and call it MLK, we can do the same with light rail technology. There just has to be a will to do it. It's not something that is car-dependent or bust.

**313WX** · January-09-12, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

The Davison is still the quickest way from the east side to the west side. It's true. Although, I'm not quite sure why folks from Hamtramck want to go to Dexter-Davison.

It really is the quickest way.

The nice part about it too is a lot of people don't know about it, so it's nearly trafficless relative to other crosstown routes.

**Gistok** · January-09-12, 01:52 PM

The cross-town comments do bring up a good point.... when in the hell is the city going to re-open McNichols [[6 Mile) north of City Airport??

Between I-94 and 7 Mile Rd. [[Davison ends at Van Dyke, so that's only a partial cross town) there is no east west thoroughfare thru Detroit. The entire stretch of Van Dyke between I-94 and 7 Mile is literally cut off from all points east and west because of this.

Because of this "dysfunction" in the city's navigational routes... it does seem to make I-94 a more important cross town route than it really should be...

DetroitNerd... I look at other things along the I-94 route as being MUCH more important than the inconvenience of a middling 1 block street [[4th). The impact on the businesses on Harper Avenue [[whether they survive with a new 3 lane service drive 1 block away) is to me much more significant to the city than everyone worrying about a small cluster of houses in a Bohemian part of the city.

A widening of I-94 impacts mainly residential areas on the west side, but also a lot of businesses on the east side [[due to the proximity of Harper Ave.).

**Scottathew** · January-09-12, 02:41 PM

We need to work on inbound-outbound first, before we work on cross-town. But I agree that a full transit system would have both.

**Detroitnerd** · January-09-12, 02:51 PM

Detroit evolved without many crosstown routes, but the result in the 1940s was that east-siders and west-siders never had to leave their side of town for anything.

bartock · January-09-12, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by jon

There's absolutely no difference in the level of safety. You can see some safety maps from SEMCOG here. The road segment between 96 and the lodge, with all it's crazy overpasses, left exits, crumbling pavement, and "insufficient" acceleration and deceleration lanes is rated low crash risk. The rest of i-94 in the city is rated as medium.

Of course, driving is incredibly dangerous--for those aged 2-35[[ish), it is the most likely cause of death. For a young fellow like myself, it seems like the best way to stay alive is to avoid the car [[which I managed to do for years living in the city).

As for congestion, what better way for a government to promote transit than traffic jams?

Clever people tend to get what they pay for. Unless they listen to traffic engineers, in which case they pay thousands of thousands of thousands of dollars and get the same thing they started with.

Wow. Thanks, Jon.

**izzyindetroit** · January-09-12, 07:26 PM

awesome! can't wait until they start breaking ground.

on a side note, i love how nice renders make everything blue skies, green grass, trees, flowers, and well to do people. No burnt out buildings, trash, snow, gray skies, or shitty cars.

**wolverine** · January-09-12, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by jon

There's absolutely no difference in the level of safety. You can see some safety maps from SEMCOG here. The road segment between 96 and the lodge, with all it's crazy overpasses, left exits, crumbling pavement, and "insufficient" acceleration and deceleration lanes is rated low crash risk. The rest of i-94 in the city is rated as medium.

Of course, driving is incredibly dangerous--for those aged 2-35[[ish), it is the most likely cause of death. For a young fellow like myself, it seems like the best way to stay alive is to avoid the car [[which I managed to do for years living in the city).

As for congestion, what better way for a government to promote transit than traffic jams?

Clever people tend to get what they pay for. Unless they listen to traffic engineers, in which case they pay thousands of thousands of thousands of dollars and get the same thing they started with.

Agree. Safety is all relative here. It's difficult to call this project "safer" when you are creating more lanes of traffic to cross, and higher speed on and off ramps. You could say a bumper to bumper traffic jam is also safe because you're moving slow

Anyway, the reason left side ramps are considered obsolete and dangerous is because the left most lane is legally the passing lane.....so slower merging traffic has to compete with faster traffic resulting in a stream of brake lights as a car enters. Probably wouldn't be so much of a problem if people went the speed limit.

I believe roads and highways should be updated and maintained to modern standards whenever possible. But I don't always agree with expansions and widening. It just seems backwards to me in a region with very slow growth and an urban center that has lost half of its population.

It appears this benefits residents passing through rather than the communities it crosses. Though we'll have to see. The video begs to differ.

**ghettopalmetto** · January-09-12, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

The impact on the businesses on Harper Avenue [[whether they survive with a new 3 lane service drive 1 block away) is to me much more significant to the city than everyone worrying about a small cluster of houses in a Bohemian part of the city.

Instead of "Bohemian", substitute "Black", "Jewish", or "Polish", and it's the 1940s all over again! What fun!

**finster** · January-09-12, 10:18 PM

To be fair, that is a major artery in and out of the city. I don't believe the feds will approve the work without bringing it up to modern standards, such as eliminating left hand entrance and exit lanes, etc. That is a very busy interchange area and I don't think there is much to gain by letting it deteriorate further.

Just my two cents.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-10-12, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by wolverine

...
It appears this benefits residents passing through rather than the communities it crosses. Though we'll have to see. The video begs to differ.

It benefits everyone.

I love to dream about a world without highways, with well-planned streets designed for pedestrians. And we can and should head towards that goal. But the purpose of I94 is to connect Detroiters to each other, and to allow people from other areas to get to and through Detroit as efficiently as possible.

If that happens, then we get economic benefit.

If we drive traffic to the Blue Water Bridge, or out to I696, Detroit does not benefit.

I'll keep dreaming.

**Detroitnerd** · January-10-12, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

It benefits everyone.

Hullo? *thump-thump-thump* McFly?

**casscorridor** · January-10-12, 12:34 PM

Anyone remember the protest on the 3rd street bridge over 94 a couple months back? They were protesting crumbing infrastructure. Well that infrastructure is about to be totally rebuilt, billions of dollars poured into it. What is ironic though, is that the 3rd street bridge they were protesting the condition of will be removed, buildings demolished, and leaving pedestrian connections generally unimproved to make way for more freeway and service drive lanes. All in all, it will only save about 5 minutes in the race through Detroit [[scary, isn't it?), and eventually will crumble again, all for billions upon billions of dollars. Funds that could be spend on a true mass transit system.

Maybe that spirit of protest could be revived, but in a more directed manner... say billions for transit not freeways?

SteveJ · January-10-12, 01:05 PM

How about we stop protesting about every damn thing and accept money and jobs coming to Detroit. We are talking a billion dollars worth of work in Detroit and then if things work out we could have another billion dollar project in the new Detroit-Windsor bridge going on at the same time. Like I said earlier, this money has nothing to do with public transit. Stop trying to mix up bus transit and FHWA funding.

**Detroitnerd** · January-10-12, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by SteveJ

How about we stop protesting about every damn thing and accept money and jobs coming to Detroit. We are talking a billion dollars worth of work in Detroit and then if things work out we could have another billion dollar project in the new Detroit-Windsor bridge going on at the same time. Like I said earlier, this money has nothing to do with public transit. Stop trying to mix up bus transit and FHWA funding.

So we accept every knucklehead idea that comes down the pike just because it gives laborers a shovel to lean on? How is it back there in the 1960s? Can you send me a pair of Sta-Prest trousers from Sears?

**ghettopalmetto** · January-10-12, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by SteveJ

How about we stop protesting about every damn thing and accept money and jobs coming to Detroit. We are talking a billion dollars worth of work in Detroit and then if things work out we could have another billion dollar project in the new Detroit-Windsor bridge going on at the same time. Like I said earlier, this money has nothing to do with public transit. Stop trying to mix up bus transit and FHWA funding.

If someone gave you a billion dollars to methodically gut your own innards, would you take it?

SteveJ · January-10-12, 01:16 PM

I'll let Chrysler know they can get all their parts by a horse and buggy since the genius' in here want to cap all freeways. Then when they finally assemble the car, we can load them up on a light train rail and send them all across the country

**Islandman** · January-10-12, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by SteveJ

I'll let Chrysler know they can get all their parts by a horse and buggy since the genius' in here want to cap all freeways. Then when they finally assemble the car, we can load them up on a light train rail and send them all across the country

Well, considering all of the cars actually made in Michigan now compared to, oh, just 30 years ago, that would probably work.

**ghettopalmetto** · January-10-12, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by SteveJ

I'll let Chrysler know they can get all their parts by a horse and buggy since the genius' in here want to cap all freeways. Then when they finally assemble the car, we can load them up on a light train rail and send them all across the country

Hyperbole aside, Chrysler seems to be profitable these days. Got any more excuses?

**wolverine** · January-10-12, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

It benefits everyone.

I love to dream about a world without highways, with well-planned streets designed for pedestrians. And we can and should head towards that goal. But the purpose of I94 is to connect Detroiters to each other, and to allow people from other areas to get to and through Detroit as efficiently as possible.

If that happens, then we get economic benefit.

If we drive traffic to the Blue Water Bridge, or out to I696, Detroit does not benefit.

I'll keep dreaming.

You make it sound like people are at complete opposite ends of this argument. I think everyone here is in favor of repairs and interchange modernization. It's the additional lanes I think some people [[including myself) take issue with. I don't see the long term benefits and many American cities will never see a widening project like this through the heart of their urban centers.

Usually people just deal with traffic. If they'd rather loop around the city, fine. See that's where I disagree on the economic benefits. No one is going to stop in Detroit if this project will facilitate traffic through. Maybe you'll be lucky to get a couple trucking facilities if this route becomes that much more attractive. But I remain extremely skeptical how this benefit Detroit residents and businesses

**313WX** · January-10-12, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

You make it sound like people are at complete opposite ends of this argument. I think everyone here is in favor of repairs and interchange modernization. It's the additional lanes I think some people [[including myself) take issue with. I don't see the long term benefits and many American cities will never see a widening project like this through the heart of their urban centers.

Usually people just deal with traffic. If they'd rather loop around the city, fine. See that's where I disagree on the economic benefits. No one is going to stop in Detroit if this project will facilitate traffic through. Maybe you'll be lucky to get a couple trucking facilities if this route becomes that much more attractive. But I remain extremely skeptical how this benefit Detroit residents and businesses

Exactly.

If traffic's going to come into Detroit, it's going to come into Detroit.

If it's not, it's not.

An I-94 expansion won't make any difference.

**iheartthed** · January-10-12, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by SteveJ

How about we stop protesting about every damn thing and accept money and jobs coming to Detroit. We are talking a billion dollars worth of work in Detroit and then if things work out we could have another billion dollar project in the new Detroit-Windsor bridge going on at the same time. Like I said earlier, this money has nothing to do with public transit. Stop trying to mix up bus transit and FHWA funding.

A billion dollars of unproductive spending that will not benefit Detroit.

**Gistok** · January-10-12, 02:17 PM

I don't mind the additional lane on the freeway... as the video's show, some of it can be done using straight concrete walls, such as those on M-10 and I-696. It's the addition of the wide service drives that will impact the city much more than the freeway widening.

Is it worth the cost? Heck no... but I'd rather they spend it here than on adding freeway lanes to exurbia.

I'm still puzzled why I-75 near Frankenmuth has 4 lanes in each direction... between Flint and Saginaw...

**Hypestyles** · January-10-12, 02:55 PM

Will the proposed Bus Rapid Transit be making use of I-94?

**Gistok** · January-10-12, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

Will the proposed Bus Rapid Transit be making use of I-94?

I don't see how it could... it would have to enter/exit the freeway constantly in order to drop/pickup passengers. The remnants of such a plan [[never implemented) was seen at Woodward, where an exit/entrance pullover lane with stairs was once located there.