When Will Enough Ever Be Enough? [[2011 Murder Rate)

[401don]

If demographics based on race was a prime factor comparison of the murder rate of Detroit vs Windsor, then how does one explain the very low murder rate of Southfield, Michigan?

Why does Southfield have the same long term murder rate as Warren, if race was a primary determining factor?

Why does Moscow, Russia have a long term murder rate about ten times that of Southfield, Michigan, if dark skin tone was a major factor in determining murder rates?

Why does Senegal have one of the lowest murder rates in the world?

In the case of Senegal both the assumption of black skin tone and poverty fall by the wayside.

My point is that the problem is very complex.

I agree the problem is complex. Suppose you surrounded the people of Senegal with a population five times larger and ten times wealthier. You then bombarded them with messages that reinforced the belief that wealth is good and poverty is bad.

[rjk]

I agree the problem is complex. Suppose you surrounded the people of Senegal with a population five times larger and ten times wealthier. You then bombarded them with messages that reinforced the belief that wealth is good and poverty is bad.

I'd add to that having a 80% out of wedlock birth rate.
Also having such a low attendance for parent teacher meetings that the local prosecutor had to use a threat of jail time.

IMO the lack of fathers in Detroit is HUGE when addressing the casues of many of Detoroit's problems.

[Pickford-Bentler]

I'd add to that having a 80% out of wedlock birth rate.
Also having such a low attendance for parent teacher meetings that the local prosecutor had to use a threat of jail time.

IMO the lack of fathers in Detroit is HUGE when addressing the casues of many of Detoroit's problems.

That is in 180 degree opposition to Senegal. In Senegal, getting a good education is paramount and a man is not a man, lest he is a good father.

Senegal is the world turned upside down in many ways. I mean the educated, well spoken nerd gets the pick of the best brides and the stupid, wife beater wearing thug [[if such a creature could be found there) would be the object of much derision.

[coracle]

lilpup said "We could get rid of men altogether and be infinitely better off." I don't agree with this idea but I do find it unsettling and a little bit dangerous in case my wife reads it and realizes she's not the only one!!! She could be persuaded to start a movement. Anybody know how I can restrict an individual Computer from receiving detroityes.com for a few days?

[coracle]

rjk said, "IMO the lack of fathers in Detroit is HUGE when addressing the casues of many of Detoroit's problems."

I would have thought the surfeit of fathers in Detroit is the HUGE problem. What Detroit needs is husbands.

[Johnnny5]

Areas of Utah have some of the highest out of wedlock birth rates in the nation yet next to no crime. The whole out of wedlock spiel is nothing more than religion based judgmental finger pointing that singles specific women out of the entirety of an unsporting community.

We could get rid of men altogether and be infinitely better off.

Utah has both the lowest percentage of out of wedlock births as well as one of the lowest murder rates in the nation. Those small areas with a high out of wedlock birth rate are due to polygamous relationships where a father is most likely still present, but not married due to the illegality of having multiple wives.

[Bham1982]

The issue isn't out-of-wedlock per se, but given the cultural dynamics in Detroit, I do think it's a contributing factor.

And I don't think it's a reasonable comparison to look at Iceland or wherever in Scandanavia vs. Detroit.

Northern Europe is generally secular to atheist, while Detroit is deeply religious, and many of the local cultural dynamics surrounding committed marriage [[or some type of partnership) would probably be of benefit to children in the inner city.

[mikeg19]

I'm wondering what the numbers are specifically are for Midtown and Downtown as opposed to Detroit as a whole.

At this point, I think extreme measures of police force are the only thing that could possibly change things. Lock Detroit down, literally. Nobody in, nobody out. Clean sweep the entire city and neighborhoods, house by house, apartment by apartment, dumpster by dumpster. Haul off everyone black, white, hispanic, what the hell ever who has any crime related activity against them. Criminals and guns off the streets. Of course what I'm talking about costs millions of dollars, a ton of local and government cooperation, and is incredibly unconstitutional. But hey, I can dream right? What is it honestly going to take to get the government involved [[FBI, CIA, Border Patrol, DPD, everyone) to combat this problem? Does this city literally need to burn to the ground? Do we need to top 1,000 murders a year before someone steps in? Because we obviously can't handle this situation.

[English]

I think what iheartthed is referring to is the ham-handed shoehorning of race where it doesn't really belong. In fact the injection of race into the discussion negated the facts. The mention of poverty was a completely relevant reason for violence in the city. Race, not so much. Have doubts? Here is a simple test you can use:

Which has more to do with violence:

A)Being African American or B)Grinding poverty
A)Being African American or B)Joblessness
A)Being African American or B)The drug trade
A)Being African American or B)Large numbers of untreated, unsupervised mentally ill people
A)Being African American or B)Poor education

Thank you. Sheesh. But none of the posts in question are surprising. It's just another day from the same posters, with lots of hot air and no real solutions.

[English]

I'm wondering what the numbers are specifically are for Midtown and Downtown as opposed to Detroit as a whole.

At this point, I think extreme measures of police force are the only thing that could possibly change things. Lock Detroit down, literally. Nobody in, nobody out. Clean sweep the entire city and neighborhoods, house by house, apartment by apartment, dumpster by dumpster. Haul off everyone black, white, hispanic, what the hell ever who has any crime related activity against them. Criminals and guns off the streets. Of course what I'm talking about costs millions of dollars, a ton of local and government cooperation, and is incredibly unconstitutional. But hey, I can dream right? What is it honestly going to take to get the government involved [[FBI, CIA, Border Patrol, DPD, everyone) to combat this problem? Does this city literally need to burn to the ground? Do we need to top 1,000 murders a year before someone steps in? Because we obviously can't handle this situation.

Don't worry. The powers that be are way ahead of you. You can change the demographics of an area through gentrification... but you can also change them through neglect.

The "entire city" thing is ridiculous and hyperbolic, though. Glad you recognize that Detroiters are still United States citizens with Constitutional rights.

[cmubryan]

English,
Are you concerned with the consistently high, if not increasing crime levels in Detroit? In your opinion, what is the number one issue holding back Detroit from being a succesful city and attracting or at least keeping its current residents.

[brizee]

It must be hereditary to human beings.

Discuss something even tangentially related to black folks and all the offensive crass bullshit comes out unfiltered.

Really is an interesting phenomenon.

[Pickford-Bentler]

and spousal rape is legal, and there's a problem with child rape, and corruption is endemic, and, and, and...

2010 Human Rights Report: Senegal

The United States State Department.

I could find an equally objective assessment of human rights in the USA done by either the UN or Amnesty International.

Is your point that the USA has a better record with respect to crimes against individuals or property than Senegal or the rest of the world?

The reported crime rate in Senegal is extremely low compared to industrialized countries. An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Senegal. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Senegal will be compared with Japan [[country with a low crime rate) and USA [[country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2000 was 0.33 per 100,000 population for Senegal, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.51 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2000 was 1.71 for Senegal, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 32.05 for USA. [[Data for Senegal are for "sex offences [[including rape)", to replace missing data for rape) For robbery, the rate in 2000 was 2.07 for Senegal, 4.08 for Japan, and 144.92 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2000 was 6.62 for Senegal, 23.78 for Japan, and 323.62 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2000 was 2.47 for Senegal, 233.60 for Japan, and 728.42 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2000 was 46.98 for Senegal, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2475.27 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2000 was 4.11 for Senegal, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 414.17 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 64.29 for Senegal, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rw...a/senegal.html


Have you ever visited Dakar?

My impression, when I visited, was of a non-violent city.

[Zacha341]

Well stated! We keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

It looks like our Democrat "leaders" would prefer to regulate to punish people who earn and save money rather that the important aspects of life like stopping them being murdered.

[Richard]

For each person the city has on the system they collect funds from the state and feds , the more on the dole the more they collect.After awhile the ratio of those on the dole verses those not reaches a tipping point and you end up with what you have.

Detroit is a mirror of how New Orleans was pre K , at this point we know 26% care what happens ,change that number then the problem becomes diluted ,but the attitude in general seems to be is that it is a free for all ,encourage scrapping,elected offlcials raping the city and then given a nice fund to step aside rewarding them for dishonor , is there really any question as to why?

[Zacha341]

Apparently enough is not enough! And the no 'snitchin' culture continues....

From article:

Man Shot Dead Inside Detroit Smoke Shop

Several Witnesses, But No One Coming Forward

Detroit Police say it's simple. A young man is shot to death in a busy tobacco store. Several people saw it happen. But none of them are stepping up. The 21 year old victim's family have a message for those people: do the right thing. Fox 2's Andrea Isom has the story.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...oit-smoke-shop

[internet_pseudopod]

Apparently enough is not enough! And the no 'snitchin' culture continues....

From article:

Man Shot Dead Inside Detroit Smoke Shop

Several Witnesses, But No One Coming Forward

Detroit Police say it's simple. A young man is shot to death in a busy tobacco store. Several people saw it happen. But none of them are stepping up. The 21 year old victim's family have a message for those people: do the right thing. Fox 2's Andrea Isom has the story.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...oit-smoke-shop

On one hand this is the result when drug/criminal culture becomes the predominant culture in an area. The same thing would be true in prohibition era Chicago or parts of modern day Mexico.

On the other hand these people aren't stupid. They know the police can't protect you. DPD is already short handed and are about to lay off 100 more officers. They also know these are individuals that will shoot you, in the head, in front of witnesses, and then fire several more shots into your lifeless body. The bottom line is the easiest way to remain living is to keep your mouth shut.

[Ravine]

A little bluntness...

Andrea Isom-- a TV reporter-- preaching: pointless showboating.
The predictable onlookers & grieving citizens saying, "it's crazy out here, it don't make no sense."...

Actually-- sad to say-- it does make sense, on some level. There is nothing about any part of that shooting that sounds random or as though it just arose, senselessly, out of nothing.

Saying that someone who saw it "needs to come forward"... really? If that same young man had been a witness, instead of the victim, would the grieving, angry loved ones exhort him to come forward, or would they foresee the potentially lethal danger therein-- and the incapacity of our law enforcement resources to protect him & his family-- and urge him to mind his own business?

I don't wish to sound cold-hearted, honestly, I don't, but I always hear the same thing-- "it don't make no sense"-- and I always think the same thing that I'm thinking, now.
These insanely violent incidents do not just spontaneously generate out of nothing.

[Danny]

What much to do with violent crime in Detroit's ghettohoods?

A) being black
B) suffer hunger and being broke
C) commit suicide

I would choose A before I choose B and C.

More BROTHERS KILLING BROTHERS next on your local news stations.

[illwill]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ro01/201020330

mazel tov, 15% increase in murders for 2011 in detroit. As if we weren't high enough.

I truly can't imagine ever living in a city neighborhood knowing that my house could be broken into any second and my wife or i murdered and it all happen in vane with no shock or surprise from the police or even the media. Everyone just pretty much chalking it up to another day in detroit.

You know what a sign of a true comeback will be? When detroit's murder rate is less than 20 per 100,000.

Btw, this is what the public outcry should be about for crying out loud! The threat of an efm? Are you kidding me? What about our family, friends and ourselves at double the risk of being gunned down in detroit as compared to the next unsafest big city!

i second that!

[Modusvivendi]

Honestly, I don't see why people live in Detroit. The crime is stratospheric and does not only affect gang members or those in the drug trade. The city is a bombed out hellhole. Education levels are worse than third world. Detroiters don't appear willing or able to govern themselves so as to have a functioning city. And, if this forum is any indication, there appear to be very low levels of civic trust and awful race relations. It seems virtually impossible to discuss any topic of import to the city without race becoming the point of contention. Ugh.

[cmubryan]

Honestly, I don't see why people live in Detroit. The crime is stratospheric and does not only affect gang members or those in the drug trade. The city is a bombed out hellhole. Education levels are worse than third world. Detroiters don't appear willing or able to govern themselves so as to have a functioning city. And, if this forum is any indication, there appear to be very low levels of civic trust and awful race relations. It seems virtually impossible to discuss any topic of import to the city without race becoming the point of contention. Ugh.

Because this is our city and just because we have our downs doesn't mean that we are out. We have many positives: grand old architecture, much of it still intact and being restored, a beautiful riverfront, bustling international border, an outstanding musical heritage, one of the largest theatre districts in the country, world class museums and cultural institutions, low cost of living, decent nightlife, good shopping, one of the best sports cities in the world, outstanding higher educational facilities, improving economy, etc, etc.

[jolla]

Honestly, I don't see why people live in Detroit.

In all honesty, I don't either. Maybe if you are rich and can afford a nice [[gated, patrolled) place, then sure, but if you have to live among the criminals, why stay?

[mikeg19]

Because this is our city and just because we have our downs doesn't mean that we are out. We have many positives: grand old architecture, much of it still intact and being restored, a beautiful riverfront, bustling international border, an outstanding musical heritage, one of the largest theatre districts in the country, world class museums and cultural institutions, low cost of living, decent nightlife, good shopping, one of the best sports cities in the world, outstanding higher educational facilities, improving economy, etc, etc.

Very well said and I agree with you 100%. But none of that matters one damn bit to anyone except us. All they see on every 11pm newscast is murder, rape, corruption, shit weather, and the occasional fluff story of Bill Spencer digging out an old lady's snow covered driveway. Face it: we are our own worst enemy. And I don't mean black or white. EVERYONE.

[English]

English,
Are you concerned with the consistently high, if not increasing crime levels in Detroit? In your opinion, what is the number one issue holding back Detroit from being a succesful city and attracting or at least keeping its current residents.

It's not race, education, or poverty. I think we have to go far deeper than that. I am starting to believe that the crime and dysfunction comes from a sense of deep, existential despair and hopelessness. I hate quoting Wikipedia, but this is a quick and dirty definition of what I mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_crisis

The main demographic, in the postmodern United States, who feel this way are young African American and Latino men... and actually, a growing number of young White men. The reason why I get so angry about the racialization [[and localization) of this issue is because it doesn't do anything.

You've got to figure out how to restore dignity, hope, and [[I hate to say it) a sense of dignity and humanity [[specifically, manhood) to this population. Richard Wright explained all this to the nation 70 years ago in his seminal novel, Native Son. Since then, matters have only gotten exponentially worse.

Berating them, calling them thugs and monsters, saying they need to be killed/castrated/burned at the stake isn't going to help matters. You're just feeding it. They already feel that way about themselves, so nothing you can do or say will actually make any difference in the crime rate. What have they got to lose? They're not afraid of prison and they're not afraid to die. Some even welcome it.

No, you've got to give them a sense of hope. You've got to reincorporate them back into mainstream society [[or actually incorporate them in the first place). Ultimately, you have to honestly see them as no different from you or me, before they see themselves that way. That's the only help for this epidemic I know.

I'm not too hopeful, though. Things are actually getting worse, as people grow more desperate.