When Will Enough Ever Be Enough? [[2011 Murder Rate)

**Jimaz** · January-04-12, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by English

... You've got to figure out how to restore dignity, hope, and [[I hate to say it) a sense of dignity and humanity [[specifically, manhood) to this population....

Found in the Free Press, quoted in its entirety: Study: New dads may act better

Ten tiny fingers and 10 tiny toes may be enough to change men's lives in ways they never thought possible. A recent study found that some men dropped their delinquent ways when they went from hood to fatherhood.

The research, conducted by scientists in Oregon and Texas, tracked 206 males from a medium-size metropolitan city in the Pacific Northwest. Participants were recruited at age 12 and assessed annually over 19 years, until age 31.

All males in the study were from neighborhoods with higher than average rates of juvenile delinquency and where kids were more prone to smoke, drink and participate in crimes. Half of the young men had used alcohol by age 12, and 70% of the participants had been arrested at least once during the study period.

As they grew older, the rates of drinking and smoking decreased -- but when a baby entered the picture, they took an even deeper dive.

"You can't easily turn your back on a criminal lifestyle or drinking and smoking," says study lead author David Kerr, an assistant professor of psychology at Oregon State University in Corvallis and lead author of the study, which was published in October in the Journal of Marriage and Family. But, he says, the birth of a child seems to boost the effort.

Earlier studies have reported that marriage has a calming effect, but this report found that fatherhood also does so. The age at which participants became fathers seemed to matter, though: Those who became dads young, in their teens or early 20s, didn't clean up their acts as much as those who became fathers later on.

"The sense of being needed really plays a huge role," says Jerrold L. Shapiro, professor in the department of counseling psychology at Santa Clara University in Silicon Valley, who was not involved with the study.

"When men realize their actions no longer affect just themselves but also a human life that's completely dependent on them, some are more willing to make changes.

"I think there's something about your own child that hits an intrinsically basic core," Shapiro adds. "There's a huge amount of responsibility that most men will take on when they have a child."

Though the message is hopeful, a life-changing event like this doesn't always permanently shift a man's behavior. Some men reverted to their old ways after a while, says Kerr, whose team is continuing to study the men to see what other changes occur over the course of participants' -- and their children's -- lives.

But if the time around a child's birth is a unique window of opportunity for troubled males, there are probably ways to help the process along, Kerr says. Interventions -- such as setting positive life goals with a social worker or attending new dad group meetings -- could assist the men in figuring out what they would like to change for the benefit of their new family and supporting them in following through.

"When such men do become fathers, we shouldn't think, 'Oh, what a shame,' " says William Pollack, director of the Centers for Men and Young Men at McLean Hospital and an assistant clinical professor in the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, who has studied the transition to fatherhood for more than 25 years. "We now have a scientific basis that this is the time to intervene in a positive way."

There is hope.

**mwilbert** · January-04-12, 09:19 PM

The idea that one particular thing is the primary cause of Detroit's high crime rate seems very improbable.

Culture, policing, opportunity, criminal justice, drugs, education presumably are all factors.

**PinkyB69** · January-04-12, 11:16 PM

I agree that an effective gun control law would greatly reduce violent crime. It amazes me how Americans love their guns yet we have a crazy amount of violent crime and no one can put two and two together to come up with an obvious resolution.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-04-12, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by laphoque

This. You need only look across the river for an example of what an effective gun control regime can do.

Look more carefully, and you'll see Surrey BC, where the idea of gun control runs into illegal drug profits.

Or this excerpt from the always accurate Wikipedia: In 2005, Toronto media coined the term "Year of the Gun" because the number of gun-related homicidesreached a record 52 out of 80 murders in total;^[18] almost double the 27 gun deaths recorded the previous year.

If you really want to reduce crime, legalize drugs.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-04-12, 11:41 PM

mwilbert = wise

**PinkyB69** · January-04-12, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Look more carefully, and you'll see Surrey BC, where the idea of gun control runs into illegal drug profits.

Or this excerpt from the always accurate Wikipedia: In 2005, Toronto media coined the term "Year of the Gun" because the number of gun-related homicidesreached a record 52 out of 80 murders in total;^[18] almost double the 27 gun deaths recorded the previous year.

If you really want to reduce crime, legalize drugs.

I've traveled throughout Europe and I am always amazed how safe the streets are in comparison to here in the States. I attribute it to lack of guns! Just my opinion.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-05-12, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by PinkyB69

I've traveled throughout Europe and I am always amazed how safe the streets are in comparison to here in the States. I attribute it to lack of guns! Just my opinion.

Read mwilbert above. Guns are part of it. Less over-reaction to drugs. More homogeneous societies [[although changing), dense cities.

[[Don't tell my friends, but a rational gun policy would help. And that's neither the NRA's absurd resistance to any regulation nor the left's obsession w/ prohibition.)

**gnome** · January-05-12, 07:16 AM

English, the same has been said about suicide bombers. Hopeless young men who feel the need of "Absolutes".

**coracle** · January-05-12, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

The idea that one particular thing is the primary cause of Detroit's high crime rate seems very improbable.

Culture, policing, opportunity, criminal justice, drugs, education presumably are all factors.

You're right, all these things are factors, but the overriding factor is GUNS. Without GUNS the other factors would still exist but would not be capable of being expressed in such a deadly manner. If we could magically get rid of one of the many reasons causing the high murder rate I'm confident that ridding ourselves of GUNS would pay the biggest dividend.

**rjk** · January-05-12, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

You're right, all these things are factors, but the overriding factor is GUNS. Without GUNS the other factors would still exist but would not be capable of being expressed in such a deadly manner. If we could magically get rid of one of the many reasons causing the high murder rate I'm confident that ridding ourselves of GUNS would pay the biggest dividend.

And how do we get rid of guns? If there's a big enough demand for guns people will find a way to provide them. People want drugs and we certainly can't keep drugs out of this country.

**lpg** · January-05-12, 03:50 PM

You can't legislate morality. It was tried with Prohibition to end the evils of drink. People will obey the laws they choose to. Didn't the Canadian government back away from some of their gun control laws due to public backlash ? And I ask the same question again about gun control, how would it be enforced ? Detroit had a gun buy back that netted some results. On a Federal level ??? Using the forms that you filled out to purchase a firearm as a means to come to your house and confiscate them ? As rjk stated above people will find a way to get what they want legal or not.

**firstandten** · January-06-12, 12:19 AM

Right now a felony committed while using a gun will get you 2 years to go along with your sentence. How about 7 years or 10 years in addition to what ever sentence you get. That way people can still have there guns, but it they use them to hurt someone the penalty is real high.

**detroitsgwenivere** · January-06-12, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by firstandten

Right now a felony committed while using a gun will get you 2 years to go along with your sentence. How about 7 years or 10 years in addition to what ever sentence you get. That way people can still have there guns, but it they use them to hurt someone the penalty is real high.

Because the penalty is already high yet people just keep shooting each other. And this is because people either don't care about going to jail, have no intention of being taken alive, or think they will never get caught.

You can make a gun out of parts from the hardware store. You can order individual parts from the internet and put a gun together. Bullets are even easier to make. Rogue cops have access to guns like they have access to the drugs in the evidence room that "mysteriously disappear". Taking guns away from law abidding citizens only leaves them more vulnerable to the criminals who will always have access to them, especially folks in rural and Detroit like areas, since police are not going to show up fast enough to save you when the wolf shows up at your door.

Like that poor single widow who just shot and killed that a-hole who spent 20 minutes trying to bust down her front door. You know, the story that the news keeps repeating over and over again?

**Wesley Mouch** · January-06-12, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by lpg

You can't legislate morality. It was tried with Prohibition to end the evils of drink. People will obey the laws they choose to. Didn't the Canadian government back away from some of their gun control laws due to public backlash ? ....

Yes, Canada is struggling with its laws. Long guns in particular are the issue. There's little debate about handguns, at least until the long-gun issue settles. But the population there that I know all are in favour of the handgun ban. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada

Only time will tell if this experiment works. Canada came from a place of great relative safety as regards handguns, so they're really just trying to keep Canada free of guns.

What I think we can learn from Canada is that it is possible to manage guns. I don't think a complete ban is wise -- and I think Canada will learn this as they mature. But I do think we can reduce availability and improve registration and tracking.

Let's not turn a handgun ban into another morality mission like the drug ban. That isn't working. At massive social costs to our cities, financial costs to government, and corrupting effects to our police departments. Save the money, create jobs, a manage handguns, drugs, alcohol wisely.

[[Pardon rant -- its the coffee -- my drug of choice.)

**Switchmanjim** · January-06-12, 11:49 PM

...at least TWO more fatal shootings tonight... not to mention numerous RA's ....

This city is OUT-OF-CONTROL but we already knew that.

**wolverine** · January-07-12, 12:21 AM

48 murders per 100,000. Unbelievable.

Homicide Counts in 2011 for several large cities:

Cleveland | Pop: 396,814 | Homicides: 88 / Up
Baltimore | Pop: 620,961 | Homicides: 196 / Down
Detroit | Pop: 713,777 | Homicides: 346 / Up
Philadelphia | Pop: 1,526,006 | Homicides: 324 / Down
Chicago | Pop: 2,695,598 | Homicides: 436 / Down
Los Angeles | Pop: 3,792,621 | Homicides 298 / Down
New York City | Pop: 8,175,133 | Homicides: 490 / Down

In general, homicides in American cities have been in historical decline over the past 3 decades. Even as some cities have lost population historically, rates have gone down faster than population, or cities have increased in growth, but continue to see crime numbers decrease. Detroit is the only unfortunate exception, where the city has lost a substantial amount of population, yet it still posts huge counts. Basically, crime in Detroit is almost twice as bad or greater than any large city in the United States.

Ravine · January-07-12, 01:04 AM

I've lived in Detroit for 36 years and have never owned a gun.
A shitload of folks own guns and have never used them to attack anyone.
If you choose to believe that tighter gun-control laws will effect a solution of any kind, you are ignoring the fact that the chickenshit thugs who are committing almost all of the gun-violence have never given a damn, do not give a damn, and will never give a damn about laws.
Identifying a symptom and treating the symptom provides temporary relief for minor ailments.
The male vs. male gun-violence in Detroit is a symptom of a major, raging disease, and tighter gun-control laws would have about as much impact as an application of Vicks Vapo-Rub.

**coracle** · January-07-12, 08:27 AM

Interesting figures from wolverine -

48 murders per 100,000. Unbelievable.

Homicide Counts in 2011 for several large cities:

Cleveland | Pop: 396,814 | Homicides: 88 / Up
Baltimore | Pop: 620,961 | Homicides: 196 / Down
Detroit | Pop: 713,777 | Homicides: 346 / Up
Philadelphia | Pop: 1,526,006 | Homicides: 324 / Down
Chicago | Pop: 2,695,598 | Homicides: 436 / Down
Los Angeles | Pop: 3,792,621 | Homicides 298 / Down
New York City | Pop: 8,175,133 | Homicides: 490 / Down

The Detroit figure of 48 per 100,000 is calculated by dividing 2011 murders by 2010 population whereas based in the previous 10 years there has been a population loss of about 25,000 [[approx) per year which would make 2011 population about 689,000 and a murder rate of for 2011 of 50 per 100,000.

**canuck** · January-07-12, 10:28 AM

Another element to look for in the homicide puzzle is the cultural reinforcement of crime in the media. There is a long standing tradition of glamorizing crime, in particular violent crime; and we are all suckers for this. From the James brothers on, there has been a hyped-up monumental attraction to criminal behavior. If you add the ghetto ingredient to the mix where kids are brought up in a secluded, more or less inbred fucked-up environment; you get trouble. The violence is institutionalized and codified to a very refined degree in fashion, music and video images that promote anti-social behavior. A lot of this gang-banger mentality is promoted from within the afro-american or latino communities by gang affiliated musicians that profit from this gang recruiting strategy. When you equate crime with success in popular media; you are asking for deep shit to occur. Compare today's cultural landscape to the Motown years in terms of message, and they are obviously worlds apart.

**WickedILL** · January-07-12, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by PinkyB69

I agree that an effective gun control law would greatly reduce violent crime. It amazes me how Americans love their guns yet we have a crazy amount of violent crime and no one can put two and two together to come up with an obvious resolution.

Originally Posted by PinkyB69

I've traveled throughout Europe and I am always amazed how safe the streets are in comparison to here in the States. I attribute it to lack of guns! Just my opinion.

Correlation does NOT equal causation. Most criminals are not using guns legally registered to them to commit these crimes. There needs to be a crackdown on illegal guns. But as others have said illegal guns are only 1 of the symptoms.