Is Fairlane the next mall to die?

[R8RBOB]

Far, far less than what you have at Northland. Fairlane got on top of it pretty fast in the late-nineties. Security patrols the mall well and deals with teens not shopping, gathering too much.

Thank God they don't have a "Footlocker" store [[I don't think) so they did not have the mania regarding stupid over-priced Jordans... or did they? Was Fairlane was one of the stores caught up in that...?

Fairlane's Footlocker is on the lower level near Sears.

[Zacha341]

Hmmmn, did Fairlane's Footlocker experience the Jordan shoes 'wilding' em, I mean shopping enthusiasm?

Fairlane's Footlocker is on the lower level near Sears.

[mtburb]

Hmmmn, did Fairlane's Footlocker experience the Jordan shoes 'wilding' em, I mean shopping enthusiasm?

I wonder if there was an "Occupy Fairlane" there.

[Bong-Man]

Considering the quality of the clothes out there, I don't know how anyone could buy clothes online. I can grab 3 pairs of jeans that are the same size and not one will fit the same. It's kind of what happened to New Balance shoes. Once they started making them overseas, you can grab 5 different pairs of a size 10 and each will fit you differently. I'm guessing Vietnam and Bangla Desh have outlawed tape measures, or just don't have time to use them. After all, they'll fit someone somewhere no matter what size is advertised.

[softailrider]

Considering the quality of the clothes out there, I don't know how anyone could buy clothes online. I can grab 3 pairs of jeans that are the same size and not one will fit the same. It's kind of what happened to New Balance shoes. Once they started making them overseas, you can grab 5 different pairs of a size 10 and each will fit you differently. I'm guessing Vietnam and Bangla Desh have outlawed tape measures, or just don't have time to use them. After all, they'll fit someone somewhere no matter what size is advertised.

I agree, buying clothes, especially shoes online has got to be an effort in futlity. Don't you have to try the stuff on to see if it fits?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

eventually there will only be one or two malls left... Somerset and maybe Twelve Oaks.

All the other ones are in decline of various stages. Even the new Partridge Creek seems doomed considering the fate of its twin... Wonderland Mall [[which was eventually covered but still couldn't hold on and was demolished for a Target and Wall Mart).

But as far as Fairlane, I can see one thing it has on its side... it is the closest mall to downtown Detroit. It has the closest megaplex movie theatre, and it is the main mall for west side suburbs. And it even has an H&M, which Somerset can't even claim. I think the biggest problem facing Fairlane, isn't lack of potential customers or its location or even its selection of stores, but rather the design of the mall itself. I can't tell if it is two or three or four floors, with all these walkways shooting out in all directions, it is extremely complicated to navigate and it seems like a 1970s version of the future, sort of reminds me of the RenCen. Very dated looking, but also very hard to change, if not impossible, even with a renovation.

Whether it's classified as a mall or not, the Hall Road corridor isn't going anywhere soon. Everyday that road turns into a parking lot, no matter the time of day.

[Gistok]

I agree, buying clothes, especially shoes online has got to be an effort in futlity. Don't you have to try the stuff on to see if it fits?

Agreed!! Even with the free mail return policy... if you want something for a wedding this weekend... what good is free return shipping, when timeliness is very important?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Has anyone been to Summit Place or Great Lakes Crossing recently?
I'm curious as to how they're doing.

Summit Place has lost most of the anchor stores, Macy's JCP's, and Kohl's are gone. Sears I believe is the only one left. It is dead as hell. There was talk of turning Summit Place into a minor league baseball field. Haven't heard anything else about it.

[Huggybear]

Let's paraphrase the responses to this thread:

1. I don't see anyone at XYZ mall on Christmas Eve, therefore it must be failing.

2. Such and such store closed at XYZ mall, therefore it must be failing.

3. There is no name-brand retail at XYZ mall, therefore it must be failing.

4. I don't give a sh*t about walk-in retail, though on other threads I am complaining about how Detroit is underserved.

I'll leave off #4. As to the rest of these, I think you have to be familiar with the traffic patterns and history to gauge whether something is coming or going. I think you also have to be conscious of your own racial and economic biases.

For example, Northland has featured - for more than 30 years if not from the beginning - a heavy dose of non-chain retail - not unlike the lower-end retail that cropped up around the original Hudson's downtown. Northland's anchors [[at least in my lifetime) were Hudson's/Marshall Field's/Macy's and JC Penney. [[About a decade ago now), JC Penney was replaced by Jeepers [[the African-American version of Dave N Buster's) and an attached Target was built on.*

* And why is the addition of a large and expensive Target at Northland completely overlooked? You all shop at Target, right? Or do you just shop at the Target Whiteland atop Garbage Mountain?

Northland's independent operators are more African-American than white now [[and have been for a long time), but the mall is at least as clean and well-kept as it has been in the last 20 years. And Northland's heavy traffic is lunchtime, or so I was informed by some Macy's staff. All of this is not to say that the Macy's is not poorly stocked [[it's way out of scale for a modern department store) or that discount stores are not more prevalent than they were in the early 1980s. But this discussion of Northland's retail mix as evidence of "failure" exposes a prejudgment [[also present in the media) that white independent retail is successful and black is not [[a condition which I am sure explains why aside from Good Girls Go to Paris, nearly every small business that is lionized in Detroit is run by young white people).

Fairlane is a similar story. That mall as well has had some significant evolution. At the time it was built, it was the second-largest mall in the United States and had a staggering five anchors [[Hudson's, JCP, Sears, Saks, and Lord & Taylor). I think it's reasonable to chalk up the loss of Saks [[a very small amount of space) to the economy [[one recession downgraded half the store to outlets; two successive ones finished it off); Lord & Taylor, which had a very similar product mix to Hudson's, came under common ownership - and was probably just redundant at that point. There has been pretty significant capital investment at the mall itself [[the theater complex, restaurants, building that houses the health club, etc.).

Aside from that, Fairlane has spawned a massive amount of satellite investment even in its "decline" - a new AAA building, office parks flanking the mall, a condo development right next to the Hyatt, the Mercury Road shopping centers [[north and south), and even the small shopping center at the northwest corner of Ford and Southfield [[in Detroit!). So although you might be tempted to look at foot traffic for the one hour you're there or some vacant storefronts or the loss of the monorail, the big picture is that despite casual perceptions of "failure," it is more of a draw for local development than when it was "successful."

The "gang-banger" and "teenage hoodlum" problems seem a ltitle overplayed. Or is that announcements in Spanish and Arabic freak you out?

Oakland is an interesting story - and despite the fact that it is only a couple of miles from Somerset, it still manages to pack people in. Most interesting is how a bunch of old guys from the old country have managed to make it their new agora. Take a look around the fountains some time. It might be the first time in history that common areas of a mall were actually used for socialization!

All of this is not to say that you are all completely wrong about "decline" [[since you can define it many ways) or that you are flaming racists, but we all need to take a step back and take a broader view of things. Things that we identify as signs of "failure" are nothing new at these malls, people have other choices, yet these commercial centers persist. Business models evolve to suit the local market [[and tastes).

And for as many malls are challenged, far more big boxes have closed, including chains that have gone completely out of business [[Circuit City, Media Play, and Borders for example). Nothing is forever.

HB

[Bham1982]

Has anyone been to Summit Place or Great Lakes Crossing recently?
I'm curious as to how they're doing.

Summit Place no longer exists.

I mean, the buildings are all there, but everything's closed, except for Sears. And you can only access the Sears from the parking lot. The mall part is shuttered.

The surrounding power centers and strip malls are in pretty bad shape too.

In contrast, Great Lakes Crossing appears to be a huge success. Big crowds year-round, little-to-no vacancy and tons of spinoff strip mall development. I wouldn't be surprised if this mall is as successful as any in the state. Even Somerset doesn't seem to draw such massive crowds.

I'm guessing that Great Lakes Crossing pretty much killed Summit Place. All the North Oakland shoppers migrated to the Great Lakes vicinity.

[Bham1982]

I agree, buying clothes, especially shoes online has got to be an effort in futlity. Don't you have to try the stuff on to see if it fits?

When it comes to clothes and accessories, I totally agree.

Unless you're looking for some rare product [[say, out-of-production gym shoes), I don't see why most folks would buy online. You have to try on the product before buying.

And I don't see better prices online. They're generally the same price, and most places charge shipping unless you pay a minimum threshold price.

There are also issues with in-transit breakage, the box being delivered securely, and all the waste, inefficiency and environmental unfriendliness of all the packaging.

[Bham1982]

For example, Northland has featured - for more than 30 years if not from the beginning - a heavy dose of non-chain retail - not unlike the lower-end retail that cropped up around the original Hudson's downtown.

Totally disagree.

I'm a relatively young guy, and I remember Northland being filled with chain retailers like Gap and Harmony House as little as 15 years ago. Nowadays, Northland is almost 100% independents. That's extremely unusual for a major mall.

But this discussion of Northland's retail mix as evidence of "failure" exposes a prejudgment [[also present in the media) that white independent retail is successful and black is not [[a condition which I am sure explains why aside from Good Girls Go to Paris, nearly every small business that is lionized in Detroit is run by young white people).

Totally disagree with this too.

I'm white. When I was a kid, in the 90's, I went with my Mom to Northland all the time, and we were often the only white folks there. Northland has been catering to a primarily African American demographic for decades now.

And, while I obviously don't have access to their financials, I think it's reasonable to observe that Northland is a mall in severe decline. There are significant vacancies, half of Macys retail space is closed-off, and the mall has gone through a merry-go-round of little known, out-of-state ownership partnerships.

Aside from that, Fairlane has spawned a massive amount of satellite investment even in its "decline" - a new AAA building, office parks flanking the mall, a condo development right next to the Hyatt, the Mercury Road shopping centers [[north and south), and even the small shopping center at the northwest corner of Ford and Southfield [[in Detroit!).

Disagree with this too. The investment you're referring too almost all occured in the 80's and early 90's. Fairlane wasn't in decline during this era. It had upscale retailers like Saks and Lord & Taylor. They had the Ritz Carlton across the street. Now there are dollar stores and vacancies, though Fairlane appears much healthier than Northland.

Oakland is an interesting story - and despite the fact that it is only a couple of miles from Somerset, it still manages to pack people in.

I don't see this at all. I see an empty mall, with tons of vacancies. The JCPenny wing is mostly vacant. There's like a dollar store, some sketch dog mill, and a flea-market type store.

And yeah, while Somerset has hurt, Oakland serves a different demographic. It's practically in Macomb, just a mile from Warren. And you would think that the Universal Mall closing and Eastland decline would benefit Oakland, but it apparently hasn't.

[Huggybear]

All good points - add to that that UPS and USPS are constantly raising rates and slowing down service [[it's now 5 days from California to Michigan for UPS and three business days for USPS). Taking for example Priority Mail: flat-rate packages have been getting smaller, postage has been getting much higher [[and is now zoned), and once you get outside the flat-rate sizes [[and over one pound), the sky is the limit on mailing costs. UPS [[which ships by truck) starts hitting even the lightest packages with big charges once they exceed 12" on any side. You can't exactly email packages, and if some people get their wish [[USPS closes down or privatizes), wait till you see how much shipping will cost.

On the environmental end, it's hard to say whether it's worse to have goods delivered to a local store and then have thousands of people drive there or have goods delivered to a carrier's distribution center and then distributed on thousands of stops. Neither is good for the environment. But the paper and packaging waste is phenomenal for mail order. Amazon boxes are made to be opened and discarded [["recycled"); they are not designed to be reusable for shipping, which would be the most efficient thing to do.

And after this last "sell your local merchant out for $5" stunt, Amazon can take a hike.

HB

When it comes to clothes and accessories, I totally agree.

Unless you're looking for some rare product [[say, out-of-production gym shoes), I don't see why most folks would buy online. You have to try on the product before buying.

And I don't see better prices online. They're generally the same price, and most places charge shipping unless you pay a minimum threshold price.

There are also issues with in-transit breakage, the box being delivered securely, and all the waste, inefficiency and environmental unfriendliness of all the packaging.

[Gistok]

Huggybear, while I agree generally with your assessment about Northland [[it's been "failing" for 30 years and is still ticking)... however, have have to add to your total assessment about Fairlane.

The 800 pound gorilla at Fairlane is the Ford Land Development Company, which owns some 5,000+ acres in Dearborn. AAA move out of downtown [[United Artists and AAA Buildings) in 1972-73, and predate the mall. Other retailers and definitely the office development have more to do with the aggressive Ford development of empty company land along major arteries [[ Ford Rd. & Southfield Fwy.) than it does with Fairlane Mall [[although its' proximity doesn't hurt). And when one looks at the fire sale of $3 million for the former Ritz Carlton next to the mall, it does show that the area still has challenges ahead, although having a large development company in charge, does help the area around the mall.

[Meddle]

I agree, buying clothes, especially shoes online has got to be an effort in futlity. Don't you have to try the stuff on to see if it fits?

Well, Zappos does somewhere around $1 Billion in sales annually, so somebody's buying shoes on-line.

[bailey]

Summit Place no longer exists.

I mean, the buildings are all there, but everything's closed, except for Sears. And you can only access the Sears from the parking lot. The mall part is shuttered.

The surrounding power centers and strip malls are in pretty bad shape too.

In contrast, Great Lakes Crossing appears to be a huge success. Big crowds year-round, little-to-no vacancy and tons of spinoff strip mall development. I wouldn't be surprised if this mall is as successful as any in the state. Even Somerset doesn't seem to draw such massive crowds.

I'm guessing that Great Lakes Crossing pretty much killed Summit Place. All the North Oakland shoppers migrated to the Great Lakes vicinity.

I'm going to take slight issue with your rosey characterization of Great Lakes Crossing. It's an outlet mall. It's never going to be a Somerset competitor. GLC's target demo is all that northbound I75 traffic that would have otherwise gone to Birch Run on their way up north.

As to the OPs original question. I'd put Eastland on the next to die list. The inside is a ghost town and they just [[yesterday) lost the Sears.

[cmubryan]

Let's paraphrase the responses to this thread:

...Northland's anchors [[at least in my lifetime) were Hudson's/Marshall Field's/Macy's and JC Penney. [[About a decade ago now), JC Penney was replaced by Jeepers [[the African-American version of Dave N Buster's) and an attached Target was built on.*

A couple corrections, Jeepers took over part of Kohl's and Target took over the other part. In your lifetime I guarantee Montgomery Wards was an anchor as well.

[jackie5275]

I'm guessing that Great Lakes Crossing pretty much killed Summit Place. All the North Oakland shoppers migrated to the Great Lakes vicinity.

12 Oaks had a hand in the Summit Place/Pontiac Mall's demise as well. People in the "Land O' Lakes" area started favoring 12 Oaks over SP early on.

[cmubryan]

Totally disagree.

I'm a relatively young guy, and I remember Northland being filled with chain retailers like Gap and Harmony House as little as 15 years ago.

The Gap, Harmony House, etc. left Northland much before 1997. Maybe more like 1990. Those stores existed in Southfield's other mall, Tel-12 until maybe the late 90s however.

.

And, while I obviously don't have access to their financials, I think it's reasonable to observe that Northland is a mall in severe decline. There are significant vacancies, half of Macys retail space is closed-off, and the mall has gone through a merry-go-round of little known, out-of-state ownership partnerships.

Macy's is no where near half closed-off. The 4th floor is closed off and a small area of the furniture area of the basement last time I was there.

[313WX]

In your lifetime I guarantee Montgomery Wards was an anchor as well.
[/INDENT]

I'm sure it was...

Eastland's Montgomery Wards closed around 1998. So Northland's Montgomery Wards had to close around the same time.

[Meddle]

Monkey Wards at Northland?

Could be, I just don't remember it. I was there a lot too, but I was younger then.

[rjk]

I don't see this at all. I see an empty mall, with tons of vacancies. The JCPenny wing is mostly vacant. There's like a dollar store, some sketch dog mill, and a flea-market type store.

And yeah, while Somerset has hurt, Oakland serves a different demographic. It's practically in Macomb, just a mile from Warren. And you would think that the Universal Mall closing and Eastland decline would benefit Oakland, but it apparently hasn't.

Is there another Oakland Mall I don't know about? I was just there a few weeks ago and I don't think there were more than three vacancies in the whole mall. I probably go to OM on a monthly basis and it's been nowhere close to the condition that you descibe it as being.

[Detroit_uke]

I don't think Fairlane will die. It may morph into something else - but everything changes. The stores of my youth are gone. Fairlane has The University of Michigan-Dearborn and Henry Ford Community College across the street. Henry Ford Hospital-Fairlane is right there - not to mention The Ford Motor Company...lots of people around. I wish it would bring back the ice skating and add something like bowling and bring roller skating in....but some folks just don't like kids hanging around.....

[313WX]

Is there another Oakland Mall I don't know about? I was just there a few weeks ago and I don't think there were more than three vacancies in the whole mall. I probably go to OM on a monthly basis and it's been nowhere close to the condition that you descibe it as being.

Oakland Mall seems fine to me as well. Sure, there have been some changes in the store selection due to the change in clientale, but I wouldn't say it's dying. Same with Fairlane and Lakeside.

Somerset Collections isn't all that hot either IMO. highly overrated. Then again, it caters to its clientale as well, the upper middle class and outright rich people. There's nothing in Somerset Collections for most people.

I can't comment on Twelve Oaks and Great Lakes Crossing, but they're probably just marginally healthier than Fairlane, Oakland and Lakeside right now [[and again, they do cater to a wealthier population due to their location). So Maybe he meant it's going downhill because a lot more "working class Detroiters" shop there now versus 10 years ago.

[313WX]

Monkey Wards at Northland?

Could be, I just don't remember it. I was there a lot too, but I was younger then.

National Wholesale Liquidators occupied Montgomery Wards' former spot during their brief stunt here in Detroit.

Per Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northland_Center

Northland Center was enclosed as a mall in 1974,^[6] the same year that JCPenney and Montgomery Ward were added. Later additions included Federated's short-lived MainStreet chain [[later Kohl's), as well as T.J. Maxx, and Target. In 1991, a food court was added.^[6]

Construction of other malls in the metro area present remodeling challenges and redevelopment opportunities for the metro area's inner-ring suburban malls including Northland. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, Northland had a turnover of major tenants. Kohl's closed its operations in 1994 at the mall; Target built its store on the building's west end and opened in 1996. Montgomery Wards shuttered due to the chain's financial troubles in 1998; JCPenney left two years later. T.J. Maxx closed in 2004. National Wholesale Liquidators opened in 2005 in Wards' former building, and closed three years later. In 2007, Target completed a renovation of its interior and exterior, as well as an expansion to accommodate a pharmacy, Starbucks, and Pizza Hut.